Why So Heavy On The Horns at 4am - Jack London Square

[GG-1]

Aloha

A while back I stayed at the Jack London Inn. Right on that street as shown in an earlier picture in this thread. I didn't think the Horns were that loud, more like music playing all night. I slept Fine.

 

[Acela150]

That crossing in Valhalla had been converted into a Quiet Zone, IIRC (lived in the area).

Quiet zones in no way prevent a train from sounding the horn in situations that appear unsafe or even questionable. The engineer is still required to sound the horn if a vehicle or other obstruction is visible on or near the tracks. I live near a half dozen quiet zones and some of the engineers still sound the horn at every crossing regardless if anything is in or near their path.

But in a non-quiet zone, the train is likely sounding its horn before the engineer can see that there's definitely a problem. The latest information I have shows a speed of 65 around the grade crossing, with the lowest speed being 40 in a curve about a mile away.

Limit on that section of track is 60. Train was shown to be doing 58mph per the event recorder. 2mph UNDER the limit.

http://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L05204#p1_z5_gD_kquiet%20zone%20locations

The link posted above shows every QZ in america! This crossing is NOT a QZ! 2 longs, 1 short, and 1 long blast of the horn is the Federally mandated Crossing sequence.

The engineer blew the horn for 4 seconds before impact.

Should a train or engine be in the area of a QZ and the Engineer believes that their is danger, he or she must use the horn at their discretion.

I believe that the person who was killed in the vehicle was trying to get their car out of the way. IMO IF that person did not attempt that move, she would have survived. BUT I believe that the fire still would have occurred. Simply cause of the third rail. It's my understanding that the engineer saved several passengers after the incident before seeking safety. It is also my understanding that the engineer is extremely distraught about the incident. I give this engineer extreme credit for his actions!

I personally think that the NTSB is involved because this was a Metro North incident, and MNRR is target of FRA E.O. 29. If this wasn't a MNRR related incident they'd be shooting the sh*t with someone in DC. That is strictly opinion! They are acting like a Grade Crossing Incident doesn't occur. Granted this was a very disturbing grade crossing incident, if a BNSF train hits a car and kills someone they don't care. But MNRR hits a car and kills someone they care. Just something to think about.

 

[CCC1007]

NTSB seems to investigate any apparent fuel tank rupture incident. I think that is why, not only because of the incident occurring on mnrr.

 

[Bus Nut]

I'm with CCC, this was an unusual collision with multiple fatalities. I think it behooves to find out what went wrong.

Frankly when a big heavy train hits a little old Jeep* the train should not be damaged like that.

*-or whatever

There is definitely a need for some Operation Lifesaver refreshers for adults. I was taught if your vehicle stalled out and couldn't be moved to run away from the tracks, towards (not away from) the direction of train approach to avoid being hit by debris, and to call the RR if you have time but just run if the gates are down. Run! :help:

Maybe Operation Lifesaver needs some "product placement" in movies. And less of "Fireproof" where I think there was some attempt at a last-minute "save" while a train is approaching. (Yes, I saw this horrible movie, and no, it's not so bad it's good.) Stupid!

 

[Acela150]

NTSB seems to investigate any apparent fuel tank rupture incident. I think that is why, not only because of the incident occurring on mnrr.

I can agree with that. But as a counterpoint say a BNSF or UP train hits a car at a grade crossing fuel tank ruptures but no fire. Would they come then? I wouldn't think so. I have seen a few car fires where a fuel tank ruptures no NTSB shows then. That's transit related.

 

[firstcultural]

Being on the west coast, I'm surprised that third rails are allowed without grade separation. An easy fix for grade crossings could be license plate cameras, similar to those at red lights... for some reason, a $300 fine seems to deter people more than dying in a crash.

 

[Ryan]

Humans are really bad at low likelihood, high consequence risk evaluation. The "it won't happen to me" factor is high. We're much better at avoiding lower consequence risks that are certain to happen.

 

[BCL]

Being on the west coast, I'm surprised that third rails are allowed without grade separation. An easy fix for grade crossings could be license plate cameras, similar to those at red lights... for some reason, a $300 fine seems to deter people more than dying in a crash.

I'm pretty sure there's typically a break in a third-rail at grade crossings. I thought that many typical systems have all cars with traction like a subway or BART.

I've certainly seen places where BART is missing a third rail for a short segment, although often the side is switched when approaching a station such that the third rail is away from the edge of the platform should someone fall onto the tracks.

 

[jis]

NTSB is involved because there was fatality on the train. That will almost automatically get NTSB involved.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

NTSB is involved because there was fatality on the train. That will almost automatically get NTSB involved.

Maybe we should say fatalities involving US territory and/or involving US designed/assembled/registered hardware and/or involving a US operator? Personally I'm glad the NTSB is involved. Not so much because of the apparently careless driver but rather because of the seemingly disastrous interaction with the third rail. NTSB involvement alone is no guarantee of a practical solution but I still like to read what they consider to be contributing factors and how they envision resolving them in the future.

 

[fairviewroad]

Being on the west coast, I'm surprised that third rails are allowed without grade separation. An easy fix for grade crossings could be license plate cameras, similar to those at red lights... for some reason, a $300 fine seems to deter people more than dying in a crash.

I'm pretty sure there's typically a break in a third-rail at grade crossings. I thought that many typical systems have all cars with traction like a subway or BART.

I've certainly seen places where BART is missing a third rail for a short segment, although often the side is switched when approaching a station such that the third rail is away from the edge of the platform should someone fall onto the tracks.

There is always a break in the third-rail at grade crossings. Otherwise, cars couldn't get through the intersection.

It's not just on the east coast...the CTA has third-rail grade crossings on at least two of its routes in the Chicago area. But that's a relatively small

handful.

 

[Alameda neighbor]

If you are upset about the train noise, you should form a coalition and force the Port of Oakland to pay for the signal and gate crossing upgrades needed to implement a "Quiet ZOne" which the City of Oakland already researched and did an engineering feasibility study. Most of the noise is coming from the freight trains and the Port is building a HUGE railyard to accommodate Many many more trains in the near future. We live across the estuary and are woken up every night several times.

 

[annoyed]

1. Blowing the horn is a federal mandate for all grade crossings. There are numerous grade crossings in the vicinity of Jack London Square. The City of Oakland can do upgrades to the crossings, like 4 quadrant crossing gates, and apply for a FRA "Quiet Zone", but unless and until that work is done and Quiet Zone status granted, blowing the horn is required by Federal law.

Is it possible to make a street running segment a quiet zone? Here in San Antonio we have several quiet zones, even around the airport of all places, but none of them involve street running.

Probably not if it's on the street.

Dear Guest: If you feel that you are not getting a lot of sympathy for your plight, you got it right. As has been said, the railroad was there FIRST. Blowing horn for crossings is the LAW. You should have looked for what was around before committing yourself. Maybe the rent seemed cheap. Guess what! There was a reason. your complaint comes across as, oops, we built the bridge too low, so we must lower the river because we don't want to make the bridge higher. For those of us who grew up near railroads in the days before air conditioning so that trains runnign on jointed rail and blowing horns for grade crossings were part of our lives, we find all these complainers about railroad noise in the days of airconditioning and welded rails on the tracks as self centered whining. Get over it.

As has been said, most of the night trains are freight. Why are you not complaining about the day trains as well?

There is hope. After a while you will get used to it. You will adjust. The train noise will become part of your ambience and you will barely notice it. You simply have to recognize it as part of your reality.

It's unfortunate that everyone here is saying that you should just learn to live with the noise. Housing is extremely competitive in the Bay Area. It's not as simple as finding a new place to live. I just moved to north Berkeley and discovered these 4 a.m. horn blasts. I live far enough from the tracks that I shouldn't be hearing these. Plus the track is elevated and doesn't cross any streets, so there is no real need to blast the horn at that ungodly hour. I'm a big fan of taking the train. But it seems like the train operators make noise for the sheer joy of waking people up. ugh If a person is on the tracks just hit them. They're the ones who are asking for it. Not us.

 

[SarahZ]

1. Blowing the horn is a federal mandate for all grade crossings. There are numerous grade crossings in the vicinity of Jack London Square. The City of Oakland can do upgrades to the crossings, like 4 quadrant crossing gates, and apply for a FRA "Quiet Zone", but unless and until that work is done and Quiet Zone status granted, blowing the horn is required by Federal law.

Is it possible to make a street running segment a quiet zone? Here in San Antonio we have several quiet zones, even around the airport of all places, but none of them involve street running.

Probably not if it's on the street.

Dear Guest: If you feel that you are not getting a lot of sympathy for your plight, you got it right. As has been said, the railroad was there FIRST. Blowing horn for crossings is the LAW. You should have looked for what was around before committing yourself. Maybe the rent seemed cheap. Guess what! There was a reason. your complaint comes across as, oops, we built the bridge too low, so we must lower the river because we don't want to make the bridge higher. For those of us who grew up near railroads in the days before air conditioning so that trains runnign on jointed rail and blowing horns for grade crossings were part of our lives, we find all these complainers about railroad noise in the days of airconditioning and welded rails on the tracks as self centered whining. Get over it.

As has been said, most of the night trains are freight. Why are you not complaining about the day trains as well?

There is hope. After a while you will get used to it. You will adjust. The train noise will become part of your ambience and you will barely notice it. You simply have to recognize it as part of your reality.

It's unfortunate that everyone here is saying that you should just learn to live with the noise. Housing is extremely competitive in the Bay Area. It's not as simple as finding a new place to live. I just moved to north Berkeley and discovered these 4 a.m. horn blasts. I live far enough from the tracks that I shouldn't be hearing these. Plus the track is elevated and doesn't cross any streets, so there is no real need to blast the horn at that ungodly hour. I'm a big fan of taking the train. But it seems like the train operators make noise for the sheer joy of waking people up. ugh If a person is on the tracks just hit them. They're the ones who are asking for it. Not us.

That is not an option. Federal law states the engineers have to sound their horn if someone is near/on the tracks.

I assure you the engineers are not sounding the horn "for the sheer joy of waking people up". There could be other trains/construction in the area in addition to trespassers.

 

[CCC1007]

1. Blowing the horn is a federal mandate for all grade crossings. There are numerous grade crossings in the vicinity of Jack London Square. The City of Oakland can do upgrades to the crossings, like 4 quadrant crossing gates, and apply for a FRA "Quiet Zone", but unless and until that work is done and Quiet Zone status granted, blowing the horn is required by Federal law.

Is it possible to make a street running segment a quiet zone? Here in San Antonio we have several quiet zones, even around the airport of all places, but none of them involve street running.

Probably not if it's on the street.

Dear Guest: If you feel that you are not getting a lot of sympathy for your plight, you got it right. As has been said, the railroad was there FIRST. Blowing horn for crossings is the LAW. You should have looked for what was around before committing yourself. Maybe the rent seemed cheap. Guess what! There was a reason. your complaint comes across as, oops, we built the bridge too low, so we must lower the river because we don't want to make the bridge higher. For those of us who grew up near railroads in the days before air conditioning so that trains runnign on jointed rail and blowing horns for grade crossings were part of our lives, we find all these complainers about railroad noise in the days of airconditioning and welded rails on the tracks as self centered whining. Get over it.

As has been said, most of the night trains are freight. Why are you not complaining about the day trains as well?

There is hope. After a while you will get used to it. You will adjust. The train noise will become part of your ambience and you will barely notice it. You simply have to recognize it as part of your reality.

It's unfortunate that everyone here is saying that you should just learn to live with the noise. Housing is extremely competitive in the Bay Area. It's not as simple as finding a new place to live. I just moved to north Berkeley and discovered these 4 a.m. horn blasts. I live far enough from the tracks that I shouldn't be hearing these. Plus the track is elevated and doesn't cross any streets, so there is no real need to blast the horn at that ungodly hour. I'm a big fan of taking the train. But it seems like the train operators make noise for the sheer joy of waking people up. ugh If a person is on the tracks just hit them. They're the ones who are asking for it. Not us.

there are probably closer tracks for freight trains, and most local switching that I have heard of in urban areas is completed at night.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Most rules require sounding the horn if you're approaching and or passing standing equipment on an adjacent track. It is nice to know that you advocate hitting people if they are on the tracks, Annoyed. Will you testify as an expert witness if a lawsuit is filed? :giggle:

 

[tp49]

The only elevated tracks in North Berkeley belong to BART who generally only sounds their horn, if you can even call it a horn, when they enter a station. The tracks the freights and Amtrak run on (at grade) parallel I-80 closer to the Bay. At night the horn blasts really carry.

 

[BCL]

The only elevated tracks in North Berkeley belong to BART who generally only sounds their horn, if you can even call it a horn, when they enter a station. The tracks the freights and Amtrak run on (at grade) parallel I-80 closer to the Bay. At night the horn blasts really carry.

That section of BART (coming out of the tunnel) barely exists in Berkeley before it enters Albany. And yeah - there's no other elevated rail anywhere in the area.

I grew up in the area and remember active railroad tracks next the elevated BART structures - what's now called the Ohlone Greenway. Santa Fe used to run a spur route to Richmond once a day. I remember it took years for the crossing bars to be removed, even though the rails were removed fairly quickly.

 

[theghan]

I see a lot of bellowing here about the blowing of horns because it is a federal regulation. I get that, and I understand why it can be a good idea. But what about countries, say, in Europe that don't seem to be as obsessed about this rule as much as we do? I don't have a lot of experience with European rail travel, but I don't remember all the cacaphony as described in Jack London Square. In fact, I remember standing on a platform in a small town in Switzerland once when a train came barreling through, without any warning whatsoever, and it nearly took my breath away. Others on the platform seemed to take it in stride. So, my question is...is this a uniquely American form of torture imposed on those living near the tracks, or are we, collectively, not bright and aware enough of passing trains to take care of ourselves?

 

[Barciur]

Depends on the country. I know it's similar in Germany, you don't hear as many horns. On the other hand, in Poland rules are very similar to those here. Now, the difference is that the horns are much quieter and they are not obligated to have this long of a sequence like they are here.

For example, you hear the horn blow at the beginning and that's it before the (ungated) crossing. Then you hear it again, before another ungated crossing. But it's not as loud and long.



I actually like the required horn - especially since there's so many crossing that have no barriers or anything. And if we do not have a horn, we ultimately rely on the technology to make sure the barriers come down when the train is approaching. And what if they don't?

Now, maybe we could do away with the rigoruous procedures of the horn blowing in this sequence all the way until it gets to the crossing. But there should be a signal before each crossing, definitely.

 

[TinCan782]

I see a lot of bellowing here about the blowing of horns because it is a federal regulation. I get that, and I understand why it can be a good idea. But what about countries, say, in Europe that don't seem to be as obsessed about this rule as much as we do? I don't have a lot of experience with European rail travel, but I don't remember all the cacaphony as described in Jack London Square. In fact, I remember standing on a platform in a small town in Switzerland once when a train came barreling through, without any warning whatsoever, and it nearly took my breath away. Others on the platform seemed to take it in stride. So, my question is...is this a uniquely American form of torture imposed on those living near the tracks, or are we, collectively, not bright and aware enough of passing trains to take care of ourselves?

That is "there", we are "here"! There can be endless debate as to the "brightness" of people here who seem to need protection from themselves.

 

[Gord]

Maybe they aren't as lawsuit happy in Europe or perhaps the auto and truck drivers are more competent and don't cause so many crossing accidents?

Canadian operating rules are pretty similar to US rules including blowing of the horn for desigated crossings as prescribed by rule 14L . Local jurisdictions can apply for exemptions for specific crossings but that can often mean someone has to pony up the funds for improved crossing protection such as gates. I also wonder about insurance and kiability issues for exempted crossings? Blowing the horn in advance of crossings can save lives which is the main reason it's legislated.

Oddly enough, I'm working in Memphis now and even downtown, there are no restrictions on blowing horns for crossings. There's a crossing right beside the downtown Comfort Inn and the CONO blows for the crossing and several othgers at about 06:20 southbound and 22:45 northbound along with the odd CN wayfreight.. CONO was about two hours late this morning.

Gord