Why trains instead of planes for long distance?

[Anderson]

"Super expensive and impractical" - The same thing could have been said when the Interstate Highway System was proposed and the early stages were started. The same could have been said about efficient airports with equipment in the air traffic control facilities.

If the Gov't officials had taken the same view and direction with the Interstate System and airports that they have taken with passenger rail (or all rail,for that matter) we would still be driving on dirt roads and using grass runways at small private airports.

The rail system is really no more expensive or impractical then most of the other infrastructure in the US ... just not as popular amongst those who control the purse strings.

I'd argue that the cost/benefit of a totally non-interoperable system with an expensive, and at present bespoke, technology is questionable. Ditto hyperloop.

The difference between either of those and the Interstate Highway System is that almost all personal vehicles could use it as-is. Note that in most of the world, HSR tends to start out with various chunks of lines being upgraded while (for example) conventional tracks are used for the approaches to major cities, at least to start with. France is a pretty good example of this.

Having to basically start "fresh" with a system that's 150-250 miles long and that can't "play well" with others is tricky (and requires a lot of up-front investment for a dedicated ROW, stations, etc.). Shorter "demonstration" systems can also end up with highly outsized costs (e.g. the estimated costs of the NEC Maglev run, at the low end, in the $250-400m/mile range. NGL, I would expect that cost to go up...costs always seem to.).

As to some of the hyperbole in here...no, what we would likely have is a series of partially-disconnected but decent highway systems (some financed by specific interests, some financed by businesses wanting links to elsewhere, and some financed by state/local governments, and plausibly some random connections thrown in when enough business interests decided that a shipping link made sense) in line with what was evolving in the 1920s and 1930s (e.g. the Baltimore-Washington Parkway was being developed from the 1920s). By the same token, you'd probably see decent airports in major cities...but that would be about it: Either an airline cabal would get together and build the airport, local interests would do so, or it mostly wouldn't happen[1].

Also, don't forget that large-scale federal investment in highway infrastructure as an end (versus as a means to an end, as was the case with a number of Depression-era projects) was very much a lagging indicator: Household automobile ownership was up to 60% as early as 1929, and the Interstate Highway System didn't sort out for another 25 years.

The sad thing is that I'm not entirely convinced that the resulting world wouldn't be better than what we have now in many places...we'd at least have less suburban sprawl and a bunch of cities wouldn't have been trashed in the process. Even if "better" would very much be subjective, it would definitely be different...but again, I'm not sure you could argue that it would be objectively worse.


[1] Of course, a major asterisk here is that a lot of the airports that popped up in the 50s and 60s were ex-military airfields from WW2. Orlando is a pretty good example of this. Others resulted from post-WW2 land transfers (Newport News' airport comes to mind) and still others were probably helped out by performing "double duty" for the military.

 

[Qapla]

China’s first high-speed railway track was officially inaugurated in August 2008. Connecting the capital Beijing and the city of Tianjin in about 30 minutes - they now have the largest HS Rail system in the world -

China has laid about 12,000 miles of HSR line in just nine years. And it has done so while pioneering new techniques and overcoming challenging obstacles, such as tunneling through mountains beneath the Great Wall. To learn more, we examined the country’s still rapidly expanding HSR infrastructure.

So, it is possible if the effort and money are spent. It may be expensive at the outset ... but the long-term cost savings and environmental issues could outweigh the initial cost - and it does not need to take decade after decade to build.

When the phone company first started to bury all their phone lines it was a costly endeavor for the time and some people wondered if it even made sense - since there were already utility poles with phone lines already on them that the phone company decided to abandon. Now it is common practice for utilities to be buried - and not just phone lines.

 

[Anderson]

China’s first high-speed railway track was officially inaugurated in August 2008. Connecting the capital Beijing and the city of Tianjin in about 30 minutes - they now have the largest HS Rail system in the world -

China has laid about 12,000 miles of HSR line in just nine years. And it has done so while pioneering new techniques and overcoming challenging obstacles, such as tunneling through mountains beneath the Great Wall. To learn more, we examined the country’s still rapidly expanding HSR infrastructure.

So, it is possible if the effort and money are spent. It may be expensive at the outset ... but the long-term cost savings and environmental issues could outweigh the initial cost - and it does not need to take decade after decade to build.

When the phone company first started to bury all their phone lines it was a costly endeavor for the time and some people wondered if it even made sense - since there were already utility poles with phone lines already on them that the phone company decided to abandon. Now it is common practice for utilities to be buried - and not just phone lines.

(1) In re China: That's also a situation where the government can just turn people into a paste and/or harvest their organs if they protest.
(2) Per the phone companies: Again, underground lines weren't incompatible with above-ground wires.

 

[Qapla]

Still ... if it were not for the many lawsuits, lack of funding and Gov't backing along with "private interest" that is contrary to national mass transit the US could still have the world's leading rail system - the fact is, they do not!

And while underground wires were not incompatible with existing wires ... the change to fiber optics meant all new cables had to be buried ... that was done.

 

[tricia]

Still ... if it were not for the many lawsuits, lack of funding and Gov't backing along with "private interest" that is contrary to national mass transit the US could still have the world's leading rail system - the fact is, they do not!

I'd rather have all of that than have a government empowered to do whatever it chooses, unencumbered by lawsuits, no matter how many of its citizens suffer whatever outrages it chooses to inflict in the name of national policy.

What we have is bad in many ways. It could be worse.

 

[jis]

And yet it is the US that destroyed an entire civilization to build stuff at one point. But this line of argument is basically "sour grapes" argument I think, and also it is way beyond issues that are appropriate to debate on this forum anyway. The fact of the matter is that we have serious problems at present in managing construction of anything within budget and on schedule, and legal issues are not the most pressing one I'd submit. We have a choice of hiding behind "our laws are so wonderful" argument or face facts that we have set ourselves up to fail and try to figure out a way to change that.

 

[MARC Rider]

build.

Now it is common practice for utilities to be buried - and not just phone lines.

Not in my city. And also not, apparently in California, where the electric company would rather shut off power on windy days to prevent sparking and wildfires rather than bury the cables and not have to worry about the wind at all.

 

[MARC Rider]

"Super expensive and impractical" - The same thing could have been said when the Interstate Highway System was proposed and the early stages were started. The same could have been said about efficient airports with equipment in the air traffic control facilities.

If the Gov't officials had taken the same view and direction with the Interstate System and airports that they have taken with passenger rail (or all rail,for that matter) we would still be driving on dirt roads and using grass runways at small private airports.

Actually, that's not true, we had a perfectly good network of paved highways across the country in 1950 before the Interstate system was dreamed up. In fact, one could argue that the building of the interstate Highway System was one of the most foolish allocation of resources in history as it enabled suburban sprawl and led directly to our current environmentally unsustainable lifestyle that's going to lead to an environmental apocalypse once developing countries like China and India emulate our lifestyle. Which they seem to be on track to doing.

 

[tricia]

And yet it is the US that destroyed an entire civilization to build stuff at one point. But this line of argument is basically "sour grapes" argument I think, and also it is way beyond issues that are appropriate to debate on this forum anyway. The fact of the matter is that we have serious problems at present in managing construction of anything within budget and on schedule, and legal issues are not the most pressing one I'd submit. We have a choice of hiding behind "our laws are so wonderful" argument or face facts that we have set ourselves up to fail and try to figure out a way to change that.

Yep. I sometimes think that one morning we're going to wake up and find that NOTHING works--that everything we depend on (from traffic lights to telephones, and Amtrak too of course) has ground to a halt because it's become too encrusted with technology that's become way too complicated and interdependent to function, especially with all the modern world's ever-increasing gotta's and can't-do-that's.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

I think the same way, tricia.

Just a small example--a few years ago, I was in a library and asked if they had a particular book. The young person at the desk just stared at me and said "I don't know--the computers are down." Then I gave him, in addition to the title and author I'd already given, the category I was sure it was in (history, I think). And said "Where can I find that category in your library?"

And he said, "I don't know. The computers are down so I can't tell where it is."

Apparently it had never occurred to him to actually walk around the library he was working in and become familiar with the layout.

 

[ehbowen]

I think the same way, tricia.

Just a small example--a few years ago, I was in a library and asked if they had a particular book. The young person at the desk just stared at me and said "I don't know--the computers are down." Then I gave him, in addition to the title and author I'd already given, the category I was sure it was in (history, I think). And said "Where can I find that category in your library?"

And he said, "I don't know. The computers are down so I can't tell where it is."

Apparently it had never occurred to him to actually walk around the library he was working in and become familiar with the layout.

For me, it was driven home the day I purchased a combo meal at McDonald's. The total with tax was $4.81. I already had enough change floating around in my pocket, so I handed the girl a $5 bill, a nickel, and a penny. She took the $5 bill, but stared dumbfounded at the nickel and the penny. "What do I do with this?" I explained to her that I had too many pennies as it was and didn't want more, so I was hoping for a solid quarter in change. She didn't get it. "But your total is $4.81!"

I eventually ended up getting my nickel, my penny, and nineteen cents change back. Sigh.

 

[Bob Dylan]

For me, it was driven home the day I purchased a combo meal at McDonald's. The total with tax was $4.81. I already had enough change floating around in my pocket, so I handed the girl a $5 bill, a nickel, and a penny. She took the $5 bill, but stared dumbfounded at the nickel and the penny. "What do I do with this?" I explained to her that I had too many pennies as it was and didn't want more, so I was hoping for a solid quarter in change. She didn't get it. "But your total is $4.81!"

I eventually ended up getting my nickel, my penny, and nineteen cents change back. Sigh.

If the Computerized Registers go down now, the poor Cashiers are Lost and have to call for help!!!

In lots of stores they have Registers that dont accept Cash, so making Change ( Do the Math!) is a Lost Art!!!

 

[crescent-zephyr]

For me, it was driven home the day I purchased a combo meal at McDonald's. The total with tax was $4.81. I already had enough change floating around in my pocket, so I handed the girl a $5 bill, a nickel, and a penny. She took the $5 bill, but stared dumbfounded at the nickel and the penny. "What do I do with this?" I explained to her that I had too many pennies as it was and didn't want more, so I was hoping for a solid quarter in change. She didn't get it. "But your total is $4.81!"

I eventually ended up getting my nickel, my penny, and nineteen cents change back. Sigh.

Have you ever worked a register in a fast-paced envioronment? I have and it would always drive me crazy when people would hand me a penny AFTER I had entered in the total into the register and started counting the change.... once I’ve counted the change my mind has moved on to the next thing I need to do.

Now on the flip side... I once worked next to a girl who would give out 5 dimes instead of 2 quarters in change.... I ran the “bank” for the store and I was like “how come you’re going through so many dimes?” And she said “cause there’s a lot of total that go to 50 cents” - I’m like....

 

[Qapla]

When I ran a register they did not calculate the change for you ... you had to be able to count change back.

 

[Anderson]

Since we're discussing goofy technological changes, I've taken to regularly bitching out banks for the "flat" credit cards (since there are a modest number of cases where I've run into merchants using imprint machines). I actually seem to have stared down Bank of America on my Virgin Atlantic card (they said they couldn't do anything but after the call in question I miraculously got a replacement with raised numbers).

So much of this honestly makes me wish I could just take the future out back and shoot it (edit: And that's on a good day. Some days what I'd like to do with the future would get me taken to the Hague).

 

[crescent-zephyr]

When I ran a register they did not calculate the change for you ... you had to be able to count change back.

Wow.. you must be nearing 100 years of age. Hope you're healthy! (That's been a common feature on even the most basic cash registers for decades. You may not have used the feature... but I'm pretty certain it was there.)

Everywhere I have worked requires us to enter in the amount because it displays for the customer the correct amount of change he should be receiving.

 

[pennyk]

Please return the discussion to the topic of trains vs planes for long distance. If anyone wants to discuss cash register technology, please do so in the AU Lounge.
Thanks.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

China has laid about 12,000 miles of HSR line in just nine years. And it has done so while pioneering new techniques and overcoming challenging obstacles, such as tunneling through mountains beneath the Great Wall....So, it is possible if the effort and money are spent. It may be expensive at the outset...but the long-term cost savings and environmental issues could outweigh the initial cost - and it does not need to take decade after decade to build.

I have no problem supporting a conventional HSR system with proven technology at a reasonable cost, but it would take us a lot longer to build than China because our public budgets are saddled with debt and we give private land owners substantial power over the sale and use of their land and surrounding areas.

wish I could just take the future out back and shoot it

Has anyone ever introduced you to The Doomsday Clock?

 

[MARC Rider]

I have no problem supporting a conventional HSR system with proven technology at a reasonable cost, but it would take us a lot longer to build than China because our public budgets are saddled with debt and we give private land owners significant power over the sale and use of their land and surrounding areas. It's true that smaller and poorer owners are sometimes bullied off their own property, but larger and wealthier owners can use their legal clout and political connections to dispute, delay, and disrupt and almost any project.

Heck, I'd be happy with conventional "fast frequent rail" service with 60 mph end-to-end average speeds and reliable on-time performance using existing rail corridors. And it might be what's necessary to get more people riding trains and build support for real HSR.

 

[ehbowen]

Heck, I'd be happy with conventional "fast frequent rail" service with 60 mph end-to-end average speeds and reliable on-time performance using existing rail corridors. And it might be what's necessary to get more people riding trains and build support for real HSR.

Unfortunately, 1950s technology is too far beyond our capabilities now....

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Unfortunately, 1950s technology is too far beyond our capabilities now....

Having just gotten back from rides on the keystone corridor and the Acela I would disagree with you. It’s not beyond our capabilities.... it just costs money.

 

[Ryan]

Agreed. Capability isn't the problem, it's the desire to do something decent.

(or more correctly an inability to agree over what is "decent")

 

[user 6862]

In the UK we are world famous for our short termism, is this a problem in the US re long term projects?

 

[neroden]

(1) For my girlfriend, rheumatoid arthritis. Plane flights are *bad* for her -- very unhealthy. The altitude change alone is a problem but the cramped seating makes it much worse.
(2) For me, the TSA. I have to bring a pile of special food, liquid, and lotions to deal with my medical problems. Despite these being medically necessary, TSA policies mean I couldn't take them as carryons and I'd have to check them (risking loss in transit). And the TSA has stolen stuff from my Dad's luggage. I could ship it all in advance by FedEx or the equivalent, but yeeargh.

There are lots of other things I prefer about train travel but those are the biggies.

 

[oregon pioneer]

In the UK we are world famous for our short termism, is this a problem in the US re long term projects?

You mean the inability to plan beyond the next quarter, or at most the next fiscal year? Yes, that seems to be a problem in this country, as well. I often worry that long-term payoffs are just not attractive enough for most people.