Why trains instead of planes for long distance?

[MARC Rider]

I once inadvertently packed my driver’s license in my checked baggage in San Francisco. They just asked for a bunch of other identifying documents (Credit Card, Medical Insurance Card and such) and then just let me through. Just had to wait for a supervisor to process the id verification. But no additional pat down or anything.

Since then I keep a second acceptable Id in my wallet - either the Global Entry Card or the Passport Card.

I once read an account by a journalist who left her purse with all her ID and tickets in the cab to the airport. Fortunately, she had taken pictures of everything with her phone, and although it was a nuisance, she got home on schedule.

I really should take a pictures of my IDs, etc. Maybe I'll do it now, while the Cardinal is stuck outside the station at Hinton and a CSX coal train is blocking my view of the New River. A pity, we had been on schedule up to this point. Hope there's enough padding to get me to Baltimore on time.

 

[jis]

I do have a photo of my DL and Passport handy. Needed them for various other reasons including applying for eVisas, and of all things, proof of residential address for my State Bank of India account(s).

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Now that the scanners with naked images are gone, and with my aging father generating occasional emergencies, I've flown again. Flying remains a second choice because Amtrak is just a better experience every other way.

Umm who says they are gone!?

 

[Way2Kewl]

I believe DFW removed them about 6 years ago ... around the time of this article.
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/na...oved-full-body-scanners-rep-article-1.1360143
Scanner looks the same but the image is a generic body.

 

[jis]

I believe DFW removed them about 6 years ago ... around the time of this article.
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/na...oved-full-body-scanners-rep-article-1.1360143
Scanner looks the same but the image is a generic body.

Correct. TSA got rid of all the old style ones and also all backscatter X-ray scanners. They only have millimeter scanners with generic diagrammatic images.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Well that’s good to know... so I am a little less likely to have cancer from those machines!

 

[adamj023]

First class on domestic airlines combined with fast flight times make train obsolete even on the NYC to Chicago route. United, AA, Delta and Spirit all compete at LGA to ORD. Train just can’t compete on routes of this distance and Chicago is their main connection hub and you would have expected Amtrak to high speed this route to establish a future high speed presence. I still see Amtrak as competitive on Northeastern Corridor routes and for people going shorter distances on the other route networks and inside California especially if they develop high speed rail there. Also Auto Train still makes sense as well if they can improve profitability on the line as people like shorter car rides as people migrate from as far north as Canada to as far south as Florida to shorten their driving time but the service still tends to be very seasonal.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

First class on domestic airlines combined with fast flight times make train obsolete even on the NYC to Chicago route. United, AA, Delta and Spirit all compete at LGA to ORD. Train just can’t compete on routes of this distance and Chicago is their main connection hub and you would have expected Amtrak to high speed this route to establish a future high speed presence. I still see Amtrak as competitive on Northeastern Corridor routes and for people going shorter distances on the other route networks and inside California especially if they develop high speed rail there. Also Auto Train still makes sense as well if they can improve profitability on the line as people like shorter car rides as people migrate from as far north as Canada to as far south as Florida to shorten their driving time but the service still tends to be very seasonal.

I disagree. My recent trip Orlando to Lancaster PA made much more sense via Amtrak than flying. Sleeper was about the same price of first class domestic, and it saved me a night in a hotel so actually came out cheaper.

Flying out of NYC was a hassle and I felt like I wasted the entire day waiting in the airport. Partly that was me allowing extra time cause I’m not familiar with JFK.

 

[PRR 60]

I disagree. My recent trip Orlando to Lancaster PA made much more sense via Amtrak than flying. Sleeper was about the same price of first class domestic, and it saved me a night in a hotel so actually came out cheaper.

Flying out of NYC was a hassle and I felt like I wasted the entire day waiting in the airport. Partly that was me allowing extra time cause I’m not familiar with JFK.

Why would you use a New York airport for a trip from Orlando to Lancaster? PHL makes much more sense. AA or WN to PHL, SEPTA to 30th Street, Keystone to Lancaster. Am I missing something?

 

[Pere Flyer]

I disagree. My recent trip Orlando to Lancaster PA made much more sense via Amtrak than flying. Sleeper was about the same price of first class domestic, and it saved me a night in a hotel so actually came out cheaper.

Flying out of NYC was a hassle and I felt like I wasted the entire day waiting in the airport. Partly that was me allowing extra time cause I’m not familiar with JFK.

I recently booked travel for next month and early January, and the saver fare BOS-CHI-GRR via 449/370 was $124. This was cheaper than most flights from Logan to the Chicago airports! Maybe I just got lucky with the low bucket.
Attending dance training programs every summer and university nearly 1,000 miles away from home, I’ve flown 4-8 times per year (domestic and int’l) for the past decade, often with connections and layovers. I’m tired of flying domestic in general, but if I do fly domestic, I choose to only fly nonstop and only once in an itinerary. My upcoming trip originates and ends in PVD, which has no direct flights to GRR, so it made more sense for me to take a train to Boston, to Chicago, to Grand Rapids.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Why would you use a New York airport for a trip from Orlando to Lancaster? PHL makes much more sense. AA or WN to PHL, SEPTA to 30th Street, Keystone to Lancaster. Am I missing something?

Sorry... started my trip in Lancaster area to see 611 and went up to NYC for a few days following that. Was perfect weather up there and unusually cheap hotels by nyc standards.

So I was returning from NYC.

 

[dogbert617]

1) More room & walking around space. DVT not likely to be a problem on trains, can't ne ignored on 14/16 hour sectors, let alone the coming 22 hour sectors.
2) Much better scenary.
3) Often more convient arrival/departure time.
4) Arrives/departs closer to home.
5) No security lines.
6) Less baggage hassels.

Just off the top of my head.
.

And to add onto 5), you thankfully DON'T have to deal with all the security theater and all the annoying BS rules that TSA has! I.e. 'you must take off your shoes and belts before passing through security', 'no water in your carry on bag through security, or other liquids(i.e. soda, beer, whatever else) in your bag when passing through security, and you'll have a choice to either throw that out or dump all that liquid!', etc. Honestly the TSA rules are so annoying and over the top, thank I'm thankful as f that Amtrak exists as a less stressful way to travel! I don't care that it takes longer than flying, since to me it's a LOT more damn enjoyable to do vs. flying!

And also screw the fact you get less legroom on a flight, vs. with Amtrak!

 

[adamj023]

The TSA really needs to be either eliminated and replaced with private security or severely modified to speed up the process and eliminate the intrusiveness. Trusted travel programs ought to have an easier application and not require renewal unless there is a security risk.

 

[MARC Rider]

And to add onto 5), you thankfully DON'T have to deal with all the security theater and all the annoying BS rules that TSA has!

Of course, on the other hand, you might have to consent to police officers searching your bags halfway through your trip or risk getting taken off the train in some out of the way place while the police search around for a warrant or a drug dog. When you fly, once you get through TSA, you're usually left alone.

 

[MARC Rider]

The TSA really needs to be either eliminated and replaced with private security or severely modified to speed up the process and eliminate the intrusiveness. Trusted travel programs ought to have an easier application and not require renewal unless there is a security risk.

What makes you think that a private security operation would be more efficient or effective than TSA? Before 9/11, airport security was a private operation, and we all know what happened. As far as the "trusted traveler" programs, of course they need renewals, as your "security risk" may change over time.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

What makes you think that a private security operation would be more efficient or effective than TSA? Before 9/11, airport security was a private operation, and we all know what happened. As far as the "trusted traveler" programs, of course they need renewals, as your "security risk" may change over time.

Didn’t the 9/11 attackers use items that were permitted to be carried on?

I don’t have a problem with the TSA. I just don’t think I should have to even partially undress and stand spread eagle for a scan in order to travel in my own country. Just go back to the metal detectors and let citizens with no record, and no concern keep shoes and belts on.

Everything else I’m fine with. Taking my laptop out of my bag is no big deal.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Of course, on the other hand, you might have to consent to police officers searching your bags halfway through your trip or risk getting taken off the train in some out of the way place while the police search around for a warrant or a drug dog.

If the dog is needed to establish probable cause then in theory they should still need reasonable and definable suspicion to detain you against your will for the purpose of securing a dog. Or maybe the real threat is that they have a reasonable expectation that a conductor they've worked with dozens or hundreds of times will show no loyalty to his customers and will happily remove you without cause if anyone in a uniform asks.

Before 9/11, airport security was a private operation, and we all know what happened.

Some of us know they followed the rules in place at the time, which did not include the prohibition and confiscation of box cutters. Which makes me wonder what else you think "we all know."

 

[MARC Rider]

You can't set up like this on a plane:

 

[crescent-zephyr]

If the dog is needed to establish probable cause then at that point shouldn't they'd still need reasonable and definable suspicion to detain you against your will? Or maybe the real threat is that they know the conductor would remove you without cuase if anyone in a uniform asked them to?

That’s what I couldn’t figure out. They can’t search your bags without consent or probable cause... but they can detain you without probable cause while they ask for a dog to see if there is probable cause to search your bag.

 

[MARC Rider]

Some of us know they followed the rules in place at the time, which did not include the prohibition and confiscation of box cutters. Which makes me wonder what else you think "we all know."

What does that have to do with whether or not security screening is best done by a private company? It seems that the private security screening companies at the time were perfectly happy to just "follow the rules in place at the time," and did not provide any kind of added value proposition to their function.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

What does that have to do with whether or not security screening is best done by a private company? It seems that the private security screening companies at the time were perfectly happy to just "follow the rules in place at the time," and did not provide any kind of added value proposition to their function.

Following the rules as written is precisely what I want from my security services. The TSA still struggles to fully define the rules, let alone actually follow them. As currently constructed the TSA functions as a institutional workaround for the Fourth Amendment, as a willing and participatory conduit for civil asset forfeiture, and a self-dealing bridge troll charging airlines and travelers arbitrary fees to pass through unmolested. I see no added value here.

 

[adamj023]

What makes you think that a private security operation would be more efficient or effective than TSA? Before 9/11, airport security was a private operation, and we all know what happened. As far as the "trusted traveler" programs, of course they need renewals, as your "security risk" may change over time.

i know too much about 9/11 and don’t want to veer this off topic or get attacked by anyone else in flame wars. I will say this: El Al has their own private security and it is the best in the world as they had to adapt to constant threats. Having private security is definitely a successful option. Private sector jobs pay more and reward merit. The problem is pulling back the TSA is hard to do and so if its kept, as least make it better for people.

 

[user 6862]

A few months after 9/11 in February 2002 I was passing through Minneapolis using Greyhound buses on a week long zig zag across the US. Had a long layover at MSP and decided to walk for a couple of hours but to get out of and to get back in the bus station we all had to go through an early version of the TSA checks with an actual barrier to pass through.
At this point of these travels MSP was the first bus station with any form of security, and the last too.

One of the themes that surfaced after a week on Greyhound was the amount of people of EVERY type who were riding Greyhound for the first time. All the ones I spoke with said they were frightened to fly.

 

[MARC Rider]

i know too much about 9/11 and don’t want to veer this off topic or get attacked by anyone else in flame wars. I will say this: El Al has their own private security and it is the best in the world as they had to adapt to constant threats. Having private security is definitely a successful option. Private sector jobs pay more and reward merit. The problem is pulling back the TSA is hard to do and so if its kept, as least make it better for people.

El Al has unique threats and feels it needs special upgraded security that is not needed for most airlines flying out of US airports. And the security provided at Israeli airports is provided by government employees. Oh, and you have to arrive at Ben Gurion Airport (or your El Al flight at JFK) three hours, not two, before flight time.

The whole discussion about establishing TSA after 9/11 was based on the idea that the private security contractors handling airport security before 9/11 were hiring low-paid non-professional staff who weren't performing up to standard. I was around at the time and reading the news reports. There must have been something to the idea if a conservative pro-privatization Administration was willing to establish a large new Federal bureaucracy for this purposes,

Finally, the idea that "private sector jobs pay more and reward merit" is such abject nonsense that it's hard to even argue against it. It's an insult to diligent public servants world wide.

Personally, I don't think the TSA inspection is as awful as a lot of people make it out to be. The main problem I have with it is that they don't have enough inspectors, and the lines get long. Some of the procedures are probably more theater than effective, too, but privatization won't make that any better.

 

[drdumont]

What annoyed me the most was that each airport and sometimes each airline within the airport had different TSA "rules". And it seemed that they changed almost daily. coats on/off, laptops in/out, shoes on/off, body xray yes/no, etc.
A logical mind would seem to ask "Why not one set of rules, so I can plan accordingly"?
Then it occurred to me that the very randomness and seeming incompetence is part of the idea. Seems the bad guys might have more difficulty gaming the system if the system is the Game With No Rules.
So I'm still at a loss to explain it, but I do still detest the system.