Why trains instead of planes for long distance?

[crescent-zephyr]

What annoyed me the most was that each airport and sometimes each airline within the airport had different TSA "rules". And it seemed that they changed almost daily. coats on/off, laptops in/out, shoes on/off, body xray yes/no, etc.
A logical mind would seem to ask "Why not one set of rules, so I can plan accordingly"?
Then it occurred to me that the very randomness and seeming incompetence is part of the idea. Seems the bad guys might have more difficulty gaming the system if the system is the Game With No Rules.
So I'm still at a loss to explain it, but I do still detest the system.

Yup. One time at the Nashville airport this summer a tsa agent goes “whoa whoa whoa don’t take your shoes off” I said “why not” and she goes “cause we have a dog out”

Can’t make it up.

 

[drdumont]

ISTR for while that a table would be set up at the top of the stairs in 30th St. Station in Philadelphia, and two or three "agents" asked to look into briefcase and whatnot, but other than checking for a valid ticket, there were no other ID requirements. Didn't seem to delay things much.
Since then, in all my Amtrak travels, I've never been through any form of security check other than to present a valid ticket or bar code on my phone.
I'd like to see a real legal opinion on just who has the authority to detain me and why, and who has the authority to demand a search of my person or impedimenta, including an actual commissioned peace officer, armed or not.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I’ve been asked for my ID on Amtrak trains and at stations when picking up tickets. One conductor years ago was unhappy that my state id had expired two days prior (it expired during the trip and my replacement had not arrived in the mail before I left) and insisted i show a valid ID. She was good with an employee ID card that I had.

 

[drdumont]

This doesn't have all that much to do with Amtrak, but I've always wondered why an expired ID is not accepted. I haven't expired, I haven't changed, the ID was OK until a certain date...

But I guess the term "Valid ID" means one which has not expired, since for example, an expired driver's license is not "valid" for the purpose of allowing one to drive.

Maybe the items should self destruct on the expiration date, Mr. Phelps style...

 

[Way2Kewl]

Amtrak Passenger Identification
https://www.amtrak.com/planning-booking/tickets-id-safety-security/passenger-identification.html
Amtrak customers 18 years of age and older must produce valid photo identification when:

• Exchanging, refunding or reprinting Amtrak travel documents
• Purchasing documents with a stored eVoucher or Transportation Credit
• Traveling as a Pass Rider (active or retired)
• Storing baggage at stations
• Checking baggage (including firearms)
• Sending Amtrak Express shipments
• Asked onboard trains by train crew members, other Amtrak or operating railroad employees
• Asked any time by Amtrak police or any law enforcement officer
• Traveling into Canada
• Guardian purchasing an unaccompanied minor travel documents or signing the release form

So basicaly Amtrak says it's officialy required...
However, in practice if you've printed your ticket (with barcode) or use the Amtrak App, the chances you'll be asked by the conductor on the train is slim.
In all my trips I've never been asked for ID on the train and only been asked at the ticket counter when picking up a ticket or storing bags.

 

[drdumont]

So these are AMTRAK's rules, specifically posted and I presume failure to comply can result in your not being able to travel. A Company's rules for clients or those using their service. Sounds good to me.
I don't see a legal basis for an AMTRAK employee to detain or demand to search your possessions.
Are AMTRAK "police" sworn/deputized/commissioned peace officers empowered with the legal right to search or detain? On AMTRAK controlled/owned property? Elsewhere?
I don't remember - do they carry firearms? On the other hand, I'm not sure when was the last time I noticed an AMTRAK police.

 

[Way2Kewl]

http://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Security_Fact_Sheet_5-5-16.pdf
Dated 2016
RANDOM PASSENGER AND BAGGAGE SCREENING
With due respect to passengers' privacy, the random and unannounced screening and inspection of passengers and
their personal items is completed as quickly as possible - usually in less than a minute. Passengers failing to consent
to security procedures will be denied access to trains and refused carriage, and a refund will be offered.

Same as ID, I've never been asked to have my bags searched. But that doesn't mean it won't happen sometime.

 

[Qapla]

I have not personally been asked to show any ID for Amtrak ... but, I have seen the conductor ask to see the ID for some boarding with a "senior" ticket that did not "look like a senior".

I usually travel with a senior ticket when alone or with my brother (he is older than me) - although I will travel as "disabled" when I have a companion so we can both get the discount ... I have not been asked to produce a placard (although I do carry it with me) - I guess the cane has sufficed.

 

[Woodcut60]

”Journeys have value in themselves, and are not just a device for saving time.” – E.B. White

My train trip itself IS my vacation. And - there are of course very nice destinations...

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Missouri


Virginia

 

[crescent-zephyr]

And...

 

[RichieRich]

... I'm not sure when was the last time I noticed an AMTRAK police.

I see them at LOR and SFA with dogs a lot.

 

[adamj023]

Lake Shore Limited 19 hours 10 minutes without accounting for delays.
New York City to Chicago

La Guardia Airport NYC to Chicago, Ohare. 2 hours 35 minutes flight time not accounting for delays and TSA Security.

I mention this cause its their main hub for going cross country.

With Acela, the time differential is shorter and you don’t need to get to the station as early.

The airlines are profitable while Amtrak still faces losses even as losses are being reduced.

I will not take the train on long routes like this. I have no problem with connection flights to save money and/or get more flight availability and additional routes as LGA is distance limited but closer for many.

 

[MARC Rider]

Are AMTRAK "police" sworn/deputized/commissioned peace officers empowered with the legal right to search or detain? On AMTRAK controlled/owned property? Elsewhere?
I don't remember - do they carry firearms? On the other hand, I'm not sure when was the last time I noticed an AMTRAK police.

They are real cops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak_Police_Department

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_police#United_States

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The airlines are profitable

Very debatable.

 

[MARC Rider]

Although it's true that flying is definitely faster for long distance trips of greater than 500 miles, that's only true most of the time.

About 20 years ago, my brother took three days to fly from Chicago to Washington DC. Well, what actually happened was three days of thunderstorms in the Chicago area that caused mass flight cancellations. My brother was instructed to go home twice to spend the night and come back to the airport the next day. Fortunately, he didn't have those delays on the trip home.

I myself once took two days to fly from BWI to Reno. What happened was that the first leg of our trip was cancelled due to mechanical reasons after we had taken off and were in the air for about 20 minutes. Took another 20-30 minutes to burn off enough fuel to allow us to return to BWI, where we were booked for a flight the next day and sent home.

When I was in college, my girlfriend booked a flight from Newark to Auburn, Maine where I was going to meet her. When I got to the Auburn airport, I found it was closed because they were rebuilding the runway. Eventually they got her on a DC-3 that flew her to Augusta. She was really ticked off when she got to the Air New England counter at Logan and they said, "Auburn? There's no flight to Auburn?" She probably would have gotten there faster if she had taken Amtrak to Boston and a bus into Maine.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I’m also not sure why people use the “in the air” time as any measure of transit time. In large terminals you can add 1 hour to that just for the taxi to and from the gate, plus 30 minutes early to the gate for boarding plus an hour to get through security.

 

[jis]

Very debatable.

By normal legal definition of "profitable" (stuff that they must report to Wall Street or be sent off to luxury jails ) they are indeed quite profitable these days. Of course if you cook up your own other definition then all bets are off.

 

[adamj023]

Very debatable.

Not debatable. Amtrak provides revenue figures as do the airlines. Profits are way up even after taking into account the 737 Max issues for the airlines which are affected. Also the number of airline passengers are disclosed as are the number of Amtrak passengers. Airlines have way more routes available and much greater passenger counts. Airlines have replaced long haul rail for most people but there are still a group of people willing to use long haul trains. Don’t get me wrong, I like competition but I don’t like government subsidies. If Amtrak can get long haul routes revenues enough to cover expenses then it should just keep doing that but it needs to get to that point.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Without government subsidies virtually all Amtrak routes would go away. Don’t state subsidies help cover NEC?

 

[SarahZ]

I’m also not sure why people use the “in the air” time as any measure of transit time.

I don't think they are? When I say it takes just shy of five hours to fly from Chicago to Seattle, that's the actual flight time from my ticket. The flight time includes taxiing from the gate to the runway and vice versa.

Anyone who uses the actual time in the air isn't doing it correctly. The plane doesn't magically teleport to 30,000 feet.

 

[Qapla]

The flight time includes taxiing from the gate to the runway and vice versa.

Anyone who uses the actual time in the air isn't doing it correctly. The plane doesn't magically teleport to 30,000 feet.

I think what was meant is counting the time

• navigating the road into the parking area and then into the terminal
• dealing with TSA security issues
• making your way to the gate
• getting out of the airport at your destination since most airports are considerably larger than train stations

in other words, the "entire trip" - not just the flight time

 

[jis]

I think what was meant is counting the time

• navigating the road into the parking area and then into the terminal
• dealing with TSA security issues
• making your way to the gate
• getting out of the airport at your destination since most airports are considerably larger than train stations

in other words, the "entire trip" - not just the flight time

That is the sort of stuff that makes comparisons hard sometimes. For example for me to get to an Amtrak train in Orlando coming from home, I have to plan at least an extra tension filled 45 mins from when I park my car at a long term lot to getting to the Orlando Amtrak station. For Orlando Airport it is 5 mins. Getting through TSA at Orlando usually takes me 10 mins or so, so I can almost predictably be at the boarding gate within less than 30 mins from when I park my car. OTOH, for getting to an Amtrak train I have to schedule an hour from parking the car to be on the safe side.

These end to end numbers can be highly variable if one starts counting parking time etc. I know that rail aficionados like to add all that hoping it is to their advantage, but depending on where one is coming from locally and where one is actually going to at the other end, and relative locations of the airport or train station, sometimes it is advantageous and sometimes not.

 

[SarahZ]

I think what was meant is counting the time

• navigating the road into the parking area and then into the terminal
• dealing with TSA security issues
• making your way to the gate
• getting out of the airport at your destination since most airports are considerably larger than train stations

in other words, the "entire trip" - not just the flight time

I believe you misread my statement. I was responding to his point that you can't just use "in the air" time. You have to use the time it takes to taxi to/from the gate (which he mentioned).

Here's his quote: "In large terminals you can add 1 hour to that just for the taxi to and from the gate, plus 30 minutes early to the gate for boarding plus an hour to get through security."

Some people use only the time spent in the air, which is wildly incorrect.

 

[jiml]

Trips around 400 miles or one hour time in the air is basically the break-even point. Case in point: my company used to fly us in coach between Toronto and Montreal, but would pay business class on VIA Rail and CN before them. The two routings take basically the same time. You are supposed to be at the airport at least 90 minutes before your flight (yes, I know plenty of people will claim this is unnecessary, but it is an enforceable requirement), the flight takes just over an hour - more if de-icing and extended taxiing are required at either end, and the airports are both at least 30 minutes from downtown. Taking the train was a 5-minute walk from my office in Toronto and a 5-minute cab ride from our building in Montreal. Unless you lived near either airport the train was the popular choice.

There are several examples of exactly the same situation in the US, including a few outside the NEC.