Wick Moorman CEO of Amtrak

[jis]

Keeping roster seniority means just that. They can return to their craft at the same roster position. Nothing more. They don't participate in the union they were in. When they take a managment position they are free to act against the interests of the union, and they often do. They carry out the interests of management. The union can't exert any control, and a far as threats of retaliation it is management that holds all the retaliation cards, not the unions.

Additionally, managers can't even vote for things that would affect them if they returned to the craft. They can not participate in elections, vote for contracts, receive and loses any outstanding entitlements due before they went to management (e.g.. if you went 7 years without a contract and back pay was awarded, you don't receive it if you transferred even if you weren't a manager during the period.)

There is no conflict if you are a true manager.

Thanks for the further clarification. Sounds like it is pretty clear and sound separation. That is all that I was seeking an explanation of, and clearly I had some misconceptions. Thanks again.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Ditto to what jishnu said! Thanks for the clarification from those on the inside but I still say that a person put into an Exempt Position shouldn't have oversight of where they used to work as a Union Employee covered by agreement!

That's a direct conflict of interest in my view.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

A true manager would not need to maintain his dues to a craft union.

Not trying to poke the flames. Just disagree strongly. Why would a manager spend funds to maintain his position in a union? So the manager has a fall back job.

I myself and many other still maintain license that we have not used in years, but we still pay money ever year to keep that license. Just in case.

It is a conflict of interest. How could it not be.

 

[Thirdrail7]

A true manager would not need to maintain his dues to a craft union.

Not trying to poke the flames. Just disagree strongly. Why would a manager spend funds to maintain his position in a union? So the manager has a fall back job.

I myself and many other still maintain license that we have not used in years, but we still pay money ever year to keep that license. Just in case.

It is a conflict of interest. How could it not be.

There is a difference between NEEDING to maintain their dues and WANTING to maintain their dues. There are indeed managers that don't remain on their associated rosters. There are managers that were never on a roster to begin with. Some managers are indeed on a roster which is because they WANT to. It is not a requirement.

You have failed to demonstrate how remaining on a roster...which may not even be the craft you're managing is a conflict. Why does the ability to return to a craft represent a conflict over managers that may not be on a roster? Are you insinuating that a craft manager will not work as hard or can't manage their coworkers?

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Are you insinuating that a craft manager will not work as hard or can't manage their coworkers?

Yes I am. If a craft manager is put in a management positions over the same craft, and they can return to said craft. That sir is a bad set up, you will not get a good manager. See it several times in several different career field. Once your a manager there is no going back. You fail, you look for a different company to work for. That's how my private sector business works. I am not saying that a craft employee can't be a great manager, but just giving them the option to test the waters, and return to there craft is a poor way of doing business.

Yoda: No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try.

A Star Wars quote in a trains forums.

 

[Acela150]

No. It's not a bad set up. Some trainmasters don't want to do that forever. So if they want to go back to the ground they can. You can think it's a bad deal. But it's actually a really good deal.

 

[John Bobinyec]

Are you insinuating that a craft manager will not work as hard or can't manage their coworkers?

Yes I am. If a craft manager is put in a management positions over the same craft, and they can return to said craft. That sir is a bad set up, you will not get a good manager. See it several times in several different career field. Once your a manager there is no going back. You fail, you look for a different company to work for. That's how my private sector business works. I am not saying that a craft employee can't be a great manager, but just giving them the option to test the waters, and return to there craft is a poor way of doing business.

Yoda: No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try.

A Star Wars quote in a trains forums.

So if there were no retention of craft rights when being promoted to management what could you offer to entice someone out of the ranks? More money? Upon promotion you usually make LESS money because there is no more overtime or other contract incentives. Job security? Job security would be better if the person stayed in the craft. A chance to "make a difference"? Yawn.

And here's something else. Oftentimes the relationship between management and the craft is adversarial. Suppose a manager disliked a particular craft employee. If that person stays within the craft, any disciplinary action must take place according to contract rules. But an easier way would be to offer the craft employee a promotion to management, and then after they accepted, summarily dismiss them, since they would have no recourse.

I'm sure those who have insisted upon this "protection" have other reasons as well. The practice is not likely to change.

jb

 

[Thirdrail7]

Are you insinuating that a craft manager will not work as hard or can't manage their coworkers?

Yes I am. If a craft manager is put in a management positions over the same craft, and they can return to said craft. That sir is a bad set up, you will not get a good manager. See it several times in several different career field. Once your a manager there is no going back. You fail, you look for a different company to work for. That's how my private sector business works. I am not saying that a craft employee can't be a great manager, but just giving them the option to test the waters, and return to there craft is a poor way of doing business.

Yoda: No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try.

A Star Wars quote in a trains forums.

Ok.. while I don't necessarily agree or disagree with all aspects of your position, that still does not answer why you (and others) think it is a conflict of interest. Your statement answers the question of whether you think a union employee or a non union employee would make a better manager and why.

To be certain:

con·flict of in·ter·est

noun

noun: conflict of interest; plural noun: conflicts of interest

a situation in which the concerns or aims of two different parties are incompatible.

"the conflict of interest between elected officials and corporate lobbyists"

a situation in which a person is in a position to derive personal benefit from actions or decisions made in their official capacity.

"Watson quit his job after questions about a possible conflict of interest"

.

As previously indicated, when you become a manager it's not like you don't work directly for the best interests of the company. You enact, enforce and oversee their policies. If you fail to do so, you're terminated. From the union's perspective although you are a member in good standing, you are not a participating member. As such, your voice and opinions mean nothing, so it is not like you're setting up your future. .

So, I'm still at a loss as to why this is deemed a conflict of interest.

As previously stated, a true manager works to make sure things work to the point that not only will it strengthen the company, it will strengthen the craft they're managing...which again, may not necessarily be the craft they belong to.

This is not limited to the railroad field. I know managers in the medical field that still hang on to their certifications and licenses form their original profession and they aren't even union employees.

PS: I always tip my hat to anyone that works a Star Wars or Star Trek quote into a post. :hi: :hi:

You get a double tip for mentioning Yoda!!

 

[jis]

Frankly, I don't think that a person who has been promoted from a craft to a management position managing the same craft under the rules followed by Amtrak as we discussed earlier would constitute a conflict of interest.

You have to have more than a passing relationship for that. For example in general a person being the immediate supervisor of his or her family member is usually considered to be a conflict of interest. Having previously been an active member of the same organization does not meet that threshold under the rules followed at Amtrak. There could be other situation under different rules regime where it may. But at least in my mind definitely not in this case.

 

[kmock]

I just read in the Trains article about 20th Century Limited that he personally owns one of the few remaining round end observations for that train. That can only be good as regards his attitude toward passenger rail.

And, I'm sure other will chime in here, but IMO NS has a better attitude toward Amtrak than just about any other RR.

Hopefully this will lead to smoother negotiations between Amtrak and Norfolk Southern to increase/improve service along NS routes (especially one of them).

I had the same initial reaction: in PA, NS has not been very cooperative (see for example the latest fiasco on the Lehigh Valley Passenger Rail proposal). Also, NS has been very reluctant to release any free space on the Keystone West to allow more than one trip in each direction per day. Hopefully, with Wick Moorman, Amtrak's relationship with NS will improve to allow for more passenger rail in PA.

 

[MARC Rider]

Frankly, I don't think that a person who has been promoted from a craft to a management position managing the same craft under the rules followed by Amtrak as we discussed earlier would constitute a conflict of interest.

You have to have more than a passing relationship for that. For example in general a person being the immediate supervisor of his or her family member is usually considered to be a conflict of interest. Having previously been an active member of the same organization does not meet that threshold under the rules followed at Amtrak. There could be other situation under different rules regime where it may. But at least in my mind definitely not in this case.

Maybe we're a different sort of beast, but in the Federal government, they seem to have no problem promoting professional employees to management positions supervising their former colleagues. This has happened to me in agencies that are unionized and agencies that are not unionized. This has not seemed to affect the efficiency of the the agencies, at least in the cases of my experience.

One thing I find interesting is this assumption that "management" is mostly about being able to punish employees who don't do what the managers want. There seems to be no sense that the managers and the workers have any sort of shared goals, but rather an assumption that workers are lazy bums who are out to get away with doing nothing. While that may be true for some, our economy would be in pretty bad shape if the workers had no interest in whatever it is that their companies are doing. In fact, I suspect that most Amtrak workers (or railroad workers in general), really want the trains to run safely on time. I also suspect that the rank and file workers in the field may have a better idea about what it takes to make the trains run safely on time than many of the suits, who rely on PowerPoint presentations for whatever knowledge they may have about the subject. If there's any need for an adversarial relation between workers and management, it's probably only needed between the top levels of management and the leaders of the union. At most levels mangers need to work with the people they manage as members of a team, and they need to be able to defer to the greater expertise of the workers in the field, who, after all, have the best knowledge of what's actually going on.

 

[jis]

In the several companies that I have worked for, immediate supervision of family members was a strict violation of company policy. It is OK for a family member to be far down the management chain in an organization that is managed by a relative. The main rule has been that the manager must not have any direct responsibility for salary treatment, promotion and firing decisions of a family member. The typical example of conflict of interest that is given in the training sessions is that of a person managing his or her spouse and giving him or her unearned higher raises to gussy up their family income.

I don't know what the rules are in the Federal bureaucracy.

Incidentally, I have always been curious about how federal agencies measure "efficiency of organization", and how would one know if whatever it is was compromised or not?

 

[jis]

Wick Moorman's open letter to Amtrak employees:

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/09/01-wicks-letter

 

[Bob Dylan]

Wick Moorman's open letter to Amtrak employees:

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/09/01-wicks-letter

Off to a good start!
Hopefully he'll travel on the LD Trains, not in isolation on Beech Grove,visit with the Staff and Customers, and eat in the Diners so he gets a real picture of what's going on out on the rails.

Also hopefully he can get Sunnyside and the entire Chicago Clusterflub operating correctly by visiting them just like that TV Show "Secret Boss".

We wish him well! Time will tell!

 

[west point]

Probably could not happen but when a LD train takes a severe delay fly out to train and ride it and find out how the troops handle bad situations. Or maybe just send a regional manager to observe ? ?

 

[Acela150]

Wick Moorman's open letter to Amtrak employees:

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/09/01-wicks-letter

Off to a good start!
Hopefully he'll travel on the LD Trains, not in isolation on Beech Grove,visit with the Staff and Customers, and eat in the Diners so he gets a real picture of what's going on out on the rails.

Also hopefully he can get Sunnyside and the entire Chicago Clusterflub operating correctly by visiting them just like that TV Show "Secret Boss".

We wish him well! Time will tell!

I agree with Jim here. That is the best way to find what needs to be fixed, who is a great employee and who is half assed at there job.

 

[Woodcut60]

Wick Moorman's open letter to Amtrak employees:

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/09/01-wicks-letter

Off to a good start!
Hopefully he'll travel on the LD Trains, not in isolation on Beech Grove,visit with the Staff and Customers, and eat in the Diners so he gets a real picture of what's going on out on the rails.

Also hopefully he can get Sunnyside and the entire Chicago Clusterflub operating correctly by visiting them just like that TV Show "Secret Boss".

We wish him well! Time will tell!

I agree with Jim here. That is the best way to find what needs to be fixed, who is a great employee and who is half assed at there job.

Yes, I wonder how often Amtrak executives leave their Washington HQ and ride the trains themselves (not only the NEC, but also the LD trains), have dinners in the Dining Car, test the service of the SCA's, etc. This should be done on a regular basis, in my opinion.

 

[John Bobinyec]

Wick Moorman's open letter to Amtrak employees:

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/09/01-wicks-letter

Off to a good start!
Hopefully he'll travel on the LD Trains, not in isolation on Beech Grove,visit with the Staff and Customers, and eat in the Diners so he gets a real picture of what's going on out on the rails.

Also hopefully he can get Sunnyside and the entire Chicago Clusterflub operating correctly by visiting them just like that TV Show "Secret Boss".

We wish him well! Time will tell!

I agree with Jim here. That is the best way to find what needs to be fixed, who is a great employee and who is half assed at there job.

Yes, I wonder how often Amtrak executives leave their Washington HQ and ride the trains themselves (not only the NEC, but also the LD trains), have dinners in the Dining Car, test the service of the SCA's, etc. This should be done on a regular basis, in my opinion.

Not too regularly because once they are recognized, their service will become exemplary.

I'd rather see unknown folks auditing the service and reporting back to HQ. I volunteer!

jb

 

[Steve4031]

Me too.

 

[Ziv]

A decent amount of both, perhaps? Management by walking around does help keep the manager up to speed on what the staff are going through, and more importantly, what the customers are going through, in a more direct manner.

Wick Moorman's open letter to Amtrak employees:

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/09/01-wicks-letter

Off to a good start!

Hopefully he'll travel on the LD Trains, not in isolation on Beech Grove,visit with the Staff and Customers, and eat in the Diners so he gets a real picture of what's going on out on the rails.

Also hopefully he can get Sunnyside and the entire Chicago Clusterflub operating correctly by visiting them just like that TV Show "Secret Boss".

We wish him well! Time will tell!

I agree with Jim here. That is the best way to find what needs to be fixed, who is a great employee and who is half assed at there job.

Yes, I wonder how often Amtrak executives leave their Washington HQ and ride the trains themselves (not only the NEC, but also the LD trains), have dinners in the Dining Car, test the service of the SCA's, etc. This should be done on a regular basis, in my opinion.

Not too regularly because once they are recognized, their service will become exemplary.

I'd rather see unknown folks auditing the service and reporting back to HQ. I volunteer!

jb

 

[zephyr17]

Wick Moorman's open letter to Amtrak employees:

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/09/01-wicks-letter

Off to a good start!
Hopefully he'll travel on the LD Trains, not in isolation on Beech Grove,visit with the Staff and Customers, and eat in the Diners so he gets a real picture of what's going on out on the rails.

Also hopefully he can get Sunnyside and the entire Chicago Clusterflub operating correctly by visiting them just like that TV Show "Secret Boss".

We wish him well! Time will tell!

I agree with Jim here. That is the best way to find what needs to be fixed, who is a great employee and who is half assed at there job.

Yes, I wonder how often Amtrak executives leave their Washington HQ and ride the trains themselves (not only the NEC, but also the LD trains), have dinners in the Dining Car, test the service of the SCA's, etc. This should be done on a regular basis, in my opinion.

Not too regularly because once they are recognized, their service will become exemplary.

I'd rather see unknown folks auditing the service and reporting back to HQ. I volunteer!

jb

They need to contract for "secret shopper" services. And act on the results.

 

[Thirdrail7]

They need to contract for "secret shopper" services. And act on the results.

They have them. They are known as "spotters."

Off to a good start!
Hopefully he'll travel on the LD Trains, not in isolation on Beech Grove,visit with the Staff and Customers, and eat in the Diners so he gets a real picture of what's going on out on the rails.

Also hopefully he can get Sunnyside and the entire Chicago Clusterflub operating correctly by visiting them just like that TV Show "Secret Boss".

We wish him well! Time will tell!

The only way to get Sunnyside, Chicago and other facilities operating correctly is to give them the tools to perform the tasks. That includes parts, equipment, manpower and the most important thing: time with the equipment. When a train completes a 2400 mile journey 10 hours late, you only have so much time to get things operating correctly, particularly if someone is breathing down your neck, wanting to minimize a delay.

How many times can you say "they'll take care of it at the next facility.

Yes, I wonder how often Amtrak executives leave their Washington HQ and ride the trains themselves (not only the NEC, but also the LD trains), have dinners in the Dining Car, test the service of the SCA's, etc. This should be done on a regular basis, in my opinion.

Not too regularly because once they are recognized, their service will become exemplary.

I'd rather see unknown folks auditing the service and reporting back to HQ. I volunteer!

jb

The problem is not necessarily recognition. The problem is discretion. Some people announce their plans and show up with an entourage. This is where David Gunn was a master. He would just walk away from his group (which he went out of his way to shake) and just "appear," unannounced.

We used to call him the Shadow II (since there was a gentleman who had the title first) because they would just "appear" unannounced, at any hour and alone . More often than not, he wouldn't dress for the occasion, showing up in shorts, sandals, a hat and a book. He'd just sit there in coach, reading a book until you asked him for ticket.

I remember he was sitting on a train with Former Gov. Dukakis when a relatively new conductor approached them and asked for their tickets. Mr. Dukakis handed a pass over and said "I'm on the board."

She blurts out "I'm on the board too. I just got forced assigned. Doesn't it suck??"

Mr. Dukakis looked at Mr. Gunn who just laughed and moved on.

She didn't have any idea who she conversing with until it was over...which is the way it should be in my opinion.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Outstanding story Thirdrail!

And it might even be True!

 

[neroden]

There are stories about Chicago and a couple of the other yards having developed a culture of not doing their jobs -- basically demanding paid non-working time -- a bit like the chronic culture (corruption?) problem in the LIRR. Dunno if it's been fixed in Chicago yet, but you can't run a competent railroad if you've got this behavior ingrained culturally.

 

[OBS]

I soooo agree about David Gunn, and it is why he had my utmost respect...You never knew where he would turn up, unlike other high end management, where you show up at the train and 30 people are washing windows, cleaning spots in carpets, etc.!