Will dining cars resume 12/15/20?/Flexible dining extended to May 2021?

[tgstubbs1]

Planes only have a bathroom down the hall. That doesn't stop people from jumping up to use it the second the Seatbelts lights go off.

 

[user 14106]

I’ve got good news for you! Such an accommodation already exists on Amtrak, bookable today on every train with a sleeper.



Bathrooms down the hall also exists on lots of trains in Canada, Europe, Australia, etc.



Why? Because you don’t like it?

The roomettes are popular and are a more affordable choice than bedrooms - I think eliminating them would be a mistake.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

I’ve got good news for you! Such an accommodation already exists on Amtrak, bookable today on every train with a sleeper.



Bathrooms down the hall also exists on lots of trains in Canada, Europe, Australia, etc.



Why? Because you don’t like it?

Are there sleepers in Canada with bathrooms down the hall? I thought they were using old Budd sleepers - or have they modified them? I haven't been on VIA in years. Do the British built sleepers on the Ocean have toilets down the hall? I have never ridden them. I did ride the Indian-Pacific in Australia and I remember a private bathroom. I thought all the sleepers had private baths but maybe not. Yes, I know that Europe has sleepers with toilets down the hall. You can still find hotels like that in Europe but the US has always had a higher standard. I do think that Covid is changing attitudes about hygiene.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Planes only have a bathroom down the hall. That doesn't stop people from jumping up to use it the second the Seatbelts lights go off.

Planes don't take two or three days to get to their destinations and there is now a lot of concern about transmitting germs.

 

[20th Century Rider]

I think everyone will agree that compartments with toilets in separate en suite bathrooms (Bedroom style) would be preferable not only in terms of comfort but hygiene. The US is a developed country. Bathrooms down the hall is really a retrograde idea. The whole design of Superliner replacement cars needs rethinking. I suggest abolishing the Roomette design altogether. In addition, if traditional dining is a thing of the past, consideration has to be given to food storage and heating facilities in sleeping cars. Covid may not be around forever but it is already mutating in the UK and South Africa. There will be other viruses. Whatever happens, our way of life has changed permanently. Everyone from architects to home buyers will be influenced by what has happened. Amtrak cannot be an exception. A lot has happened since the last Democrat administration. There is reason to think that some serious pro passenger train decisions could be made in the near future.

But why can't we take a hint from rail car design from Europe and Japan??? Europe will be increasing overnight sleepers and rooms with ensuite compartments are being designed. Why oh why is the USA so backward and cheap when it comes to rail travel??? Long before the pandemic I didn't like the idea of sharing restrooms with so many others which tend to not be cleaned as often as they should... and are harbingers of the flu and cold viruses.

The superliners are generally uncomfortable and poorly designed... with folks struggling to get luggage up and down those narrow stairwells and having to put hand on the germ laden handrails to keep a footing. And of course the cooling and heating systems are problematic... and no place to go for fresh air.

https://www.travelandleisure.com/trip-ideas/bus-train/sleeper-train-europe-routes

 

[Ferroequinologist]

The roomettes are popular and are a more affordable choice than bedrooms - I think eliminating them would be a mistake.

I'd redesign single passenger accommodations to include toilets in some form. With a larger subsidy fares don't have to be so high.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

But why can't we take a hint from rail car design from Europe and Japan??? Europe will be increasing overnight sleepers and rooms with ensuite compartments are being designed. Why oh why is the USA so backward and cheap when it comes to rail travel??? Long before the pandemic I didn't like the idea of sharing restrooms with so many others which tend to not be cleaned as often as they should... and are harbingers of the flu and cold viruses.

The superliners are generally uncomfortable and poorly designed... with folks struggling to get luggage up and down those narrow stairwells and having to put hand on the germ laden handrails to keep a footing. And of course the cooling and heating systems are problematic... and no place to go for fresh air.

https://www.travelandleisure.com/trip-ideas/bus-train/sleeper-train-europe-routes

I couldn't agree more. I don't understand why we upgrade homes, upgrade hotels and public amenities but we downgrade passenger train accommodations, at least sleepers. Superliner Roomettes and the new Viewliner Roomettes w.o toilets were a major downgrade. How ironic when bathrooms, once very basic, have seen major upgrades in new home and commercial construction. Americans got away from shared hotel bathrooms decades ago while Europe still has lots of them. I remember years ago being upset at the dirty conditions in Superliner bathrooms. Soon after getting to my destination I came down with a flu which I think was due to the unhygienic conditions of the bathrooms on the SW Chief. I agree too that the Superliner stairs are a nuisance and the Roomettes could be much better designed. Doors should have locks from the outside. The curtains never properly cover the glass windows. More outlets are badly needed. I've seen newer sleepers in Europe with sleeper windows that could be partly opened - maybe three or four inches at the top. That is a blessing when the room is stuffy and the AC doesn't work and it would greatly help with air circulation, especially now that Covid is such an issue.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Planes only have a bathroom down the hall. That doesn't stop people from jumping up to use it the second the Seatbelts lights go off.

Passengers on planes have no options unless it's a short flight. On short flights people can control what they drink before boarding so as to avoid use on the plane.

 

[railiner]

With a larger subsidy fares don't have to be so high.

How much larger? Perhaps you think that it should be large enough so you could travel for free?
Not going to happen, nor should it. Amtrak should be able to cover its operating cost from fares. Subsidies should cover use of infrastructure, like it does for other modes of travel. I would support increased subsidies to cover that, but not for operating cost...

 

[20th Century Rider]

I couldn't agree more. I don't understand why we upgrade homes, upgrade hotels and public amenities but we downgrade passenger train accommodations, at least sleepers. Superliner Roomettes and the new Viewliner Roomettes w.o toilets were a major downgrade. How ironic when bathrooms, once very basic, have seen major upgrades in new home and commercial construction. Americans got away from shared hotel bathrooms decades ago while Europe still has lots of them. I remember years ago being upset at the dirty conditions in Superliner bathrooms. Soon after getting to my destination I came down with a flu which I think was due to the unhygienic conditions of the bathrooms on the SW Chief. I agree too that the Superliner stairs are a nuisance and the Roomettes could be much better designed. Doors should have locks from the outside. The curtains never properly cover the glass windows. More outlets are badly needed. I've seen newer sleepers in Europe with sleeper windows that could be partly opened - maybe three or four inches at the top. That is a blessing when the room is stuffy and the AC doesn't work and it would greatly help with air circulation, especially now that Covid is such an issue.

Amen! And... two years ago after taking a transcon journey to Maine I came down with the flu... I had actually complained about dirty conditions in sleeper accommodations and lounge areas. And I always complain about lack of fresh air. What's the big deal about needing 'sealed' ventilation systems? May European trains have windows that open a few inches that don't allow careless people to throw things out the window or lean out.

So... if they have 'flex dining,' why can't they have 'flex windows' that open just a crack???

 

[20th Century Rider]

How much larger? Perhaps you think that it should be large enough so you could travel for free?
Not going to happen, nor should it. Amtrak should be able to cover its operating cost from fares. Subsidies should cover use of infrastructure, like it does for other modes of travel. I would support increased subsidies to cover that, but not for operating cost...

I would like to see those fares subsidized to encourage greater use of rail for transportation... that would also be a subsidy for the environment. A subsidy for rail infrastructure would also bring down the cost of those tickets. Here's an interesting article on passenger rail subsidies...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-03-18/the-economic-case-for-rail-subsidies

 

[jiml]

Are there sleepers in Canada with bathrooms down the hall? I thought they were using old Budd sleepers - or have they modified them? I haven't been on VIA in years.

Yup. Budd "sections" (upper and lower berths) have communal bathrooms, whereas roomettes and bedrooms are ensuite.

 

[tgstubbs1]

I would like to see those fares subsidized to encourage greater use of rail for transportation... that would also be a subsidy for the environment. A subsidy for rail infrastructure would also bring down the cost of those tickets. Here's an interesting article on passenger rail subsidies...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-03-18/the-economic-case-for-rail-subsidies

They didn't say anything about air travel and airport and Radar subsidies.

"What they found is that increasing rail service frequency by 10 percent reduced road accidents by 4.6 percent. Higher frequency rail service significantly cut down on certain nitrogen emissions too. The source of the savings seemed to be people who got off the roads and onto the rails: increased passenger rail service reduced car and motorcycle use by nearly 3 percent on commutes and leisure trips alike."

 

[NS VIA Fan]

........Do the British built sleepers on the Ocean have toilets down the hall? I have never ridden them. ...... .

No.....the British built 'Renaissance' Sleepers all have private toilets and some of the bedrooms also have private showers:

 

[Mailliw]

I'd redesign single passenger accommodations to include toilets in some form. With a larger subsidy fares don't have to be so high.

If the accommodation is too small to fully enclose the toilet it's too small to have a toilet.

The roomettes are popular and are a more affordable choice than bedrooms - I think eliminating them would be a mistake.

Agreed. If anything Amtrak should consider some all roomette cars; they can used as first class day compartments or budget overnight travel.

But why can't we take a hint from rail car design from Europe and Japan??? Europe will be increasing overnight sleepers and rooms with ensuite compartments are being designed....

For starters Japan isn't building new sleepers except for high luxury land cruise tourist trains. The new Nightjets are well designed and the ensuite premium compartments look better than any Amtrak has, but Nightjet also has couchettes something Amtrak lacks. The new Nightjet couchettes are a mixture of capsule hotel style pods and 4 berth group compartments, but none of them have ensuites.

 

[jiml]

If anything Amtrak should consider some all roomette cars; they can used as first class day compartments or budget overnight travel.

They had them, called Slumbercoaches - all retired. One of their last stands was the weekend-only overnight train to Toronto, which has details posted on AU somewhere.

 

[jis]

If you take a census of all Sleeping accommodation in trains of the world today, en-suite toilets are an exception, not the rule.

 

[Qapla]

What they have in other countries is irrelevant. Perhaps a survey should/could be taken in the US to see if in-room toilet facilities is a desire or not. It would be best if they were "private" instead of open to the room as they are in roomettes.

How would it be if all new rolling stock was built in the viewliner style (single level) so it could be used on all trackage instead of usable in certain areas.

By making the rooms larger (bedroom style) might make people much more comfortable post COVID as would windows that could be partially opened.

Some of us may have to yield what we think/like/or think to do what would increase ridership to a point where Congress and many others would agree that rail is a feasible venture and provide the needed financial backing/funding to bring it back to something think of "first" instead of a "last resort" or "Oh, I didn't know they were still trains" mentality like there is now.

If that means funding fares, so be it. If it means removing dining in favor of people bringing their own food, so be it. If it requires adding toilets and refrigerators and microwaves to all rooms (or sleeper cars) so be it.

It may mean that Amtrak does NOT make a profit any more than the Interstate highway system does ... but if it brings rail travel back to the mainstream, wouldn't it be worth the added expense?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Are there sleepers in Canada with bathrooms down the hall? I thought they were using old Budd sleepers - or have they modified them?

Yes there are public restrooms in the sleeping cars on VIA. The Roomettes have not been rebuilt, they have the standard toilet in the room that is covered by the bed at night. I always used the public restroom and did not use the in room toilet when I took VIA.

 

[jis]

What they have in other countries is irrelevant. Perhaps a survey should/could be taken in the US to see if in-room toilet facilities is a desire or not. It would be best if they were "private" instead of open to the room as they are in roomettes.

Before arriving at the Viewliner II Roomette design, Amtrak claims to have dose a customer survey on the matter of Commodes in Roomettes and it came out significantly opposed to having the Commodes in the room. I don;t know whether the details of the survey but it was mentioned by several people who many of us otherwise trust. I feel confident that the decision was not made lightly. But who knows?

 

[jis]

Yes there are public restrooms in the sleeping cars on VIA. The Roomettes have not been rebuilt, they have the standard toilet in the room that is covered by the bed at night. I always used the public restroom and did not use the in room toilet when I took VIA.

Likewise. But then again I am not allergic to using shared toilets like some apparently are.

 

[Qapla]

Amtrak claims to have dose a customer survey on the matter of Commodes in Roomettes and it came out significantly opposed to having the Commodes in the room.

Yes, in "Roomettes" - that is a semi-private toilet .. not one enclosed like those in bedrooms - and, that survey was pre-COVID.

Perhaps a new survey/study is in order and should include the option for a roomette large enough to have an enclosed toilet.

 

[Mailliw]

The problem with making bedrooms larger is that in means fewer (and thus more expensive) rooms per sleeping car. If you want Amtrak to have an equivalent to VIA's Prestige class on a few of the Western LDs that's fine, but you need more affordable options as well. Not everyone wants a land cruise; some of us just want a comfortable place to sleep traveling overnight.

They had them, called Slumbercoaches - all retired. One of their last stands was the weekend-only overnight train to Toronto, which has details posted on AU somewhere.

View attachment 19876View attachment 19877

Yes, a modern version of the Slumbercoach (w/o the toilets) would be an ideal intermediate option between seated coached and sleepers.

 

[Qapla]

And some of us think Amtrak, since it is owned by the Gov't, should be funded like other gov't owned things are ... funded accordingly. That would allow for lower consumer fares if you are not trying to make a profit from a gov't operated venture - the same way they do not expect the Interstate Highway system to make a profit.

 

[jis]

Perhaps a new survey/study is in order and should include the option for a roomette large enough to have an enclosed toilet.

One thing that cannot be modified is laws of Physics. If a Roomette is made large enough to have a separate toilet it becomes a Bedroom. The Bedrooms in the VIA Renaissance rolling stock would be examples of such. And once they become Bedrooms they cost even more. It would be nice to have many more Sleepers with Bedrooms, for sure. But that does not serve the purpose of providing a cheaper flat bed accommodation. It solves a different problem. It is almost certain that COVID does not reduce the latent demand for an inexpensive sleeping accommodation. If shared facilities were such a problem people would have stopped riding Coach too. They still apparently prefer to pay the lower fares and use shared facilities.