Winter Park (Colorado) Express is back

[Willbridge]

What was that UP car doing in the consist in the second photo, trailing the 5771?

You've got me on this (as I wasn't in Denver back then). There often have been Denver <> West Coast mail storage cars on the UP, so perhaps there was some sort of disruption on the Overland Route.

We mostly would get interline mail and express cars in Portland that came from the Pennsy.

 

[railiner]

You've got me on this (as I wasn't in Denver back then). There often have been Denver <> West Coast mail storage cars on the UP, so perhaps there was some sort of disruption on the Overland Route.

We mostly would get interline mail and express cars in Portland that came from the Pennsy.

Might have been something simpler, like a short term lease?

 

[River in Sight]

I read an update on service plans for this winter (press release):

• Service is now 5 days a week
• Tickets start at $19 (instead of $59)
• The train will stop at both Winter Park Resort, and Winter Park-Fraser
• Another article I saw said there will be two additional coaches in the consist, increasing capacity

I took this train last winter and enjoyed it, although for a family of three it was fairly expensive at $59 a head each way. This seems like a good group of improvements for this winter.

 

[Willbridge]

They've got the public information on the website already. With a calendar error:
https://www.amtrak.com/winterparkexpress

https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/ne...s-sales-expanded-holiday-winter-season-trips/

https://gazette.com/life/skiing-sno...cle_fbda98f0-9fc8-5039-9248-ba684860d00a.html (bypass paywall).

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...r-park-express-ski-train-expands-dates-route/

The local Fraser paper explains how the service is being expanded:
https://www.skyhinews.com/news/trai...cheaper-tickets-expanded-service-this-season/

Tourism wheels are turning. This is going to be a great experiment. The tourism people in Denver have gradually caught on that people fly into DEN, book hotel rooms "to adjust to the altitude" and take the train to ski. Now that's being promoted.
https://www.denver.org/articles/pos...25-winter-season-including-the-2024-december/

 

[Amtrak25]

I read an update on service plans for this winter (press release):

• Service is now 5 days a week
• Tickets start at $19 (instead of $59)
• The train will stop at both Winter Park Resort, and Winter Park-Fraser
• Another article I saw said there will be two additional coaches in the consist, increasing capacity

I took this train last winter and enjoyed it, although for a family of three it was fairly expensive at $59 a head each way. This seems like a good group of improvements for this winter.

Is this all a hidden indicator of where some of the 6 Capitol Ltd coaches will go ? They scraped up 4 cars last year, which they deadheaded from Oakland. Now there are 2 more. They could add a Denver cut coach to the Zephyr, which requires 3 cars, but that in Amtrak's mindset would be an off-the-wall concept even though they once did it. It would also facilitate swapping out Ski train coaches for maintenance.

 

[west point]

When I had younger children flew into Denver, rented car and drove to Winter Park. Really did not need car while staying there. Also never liked the drive over Berthoud pass. Promoting this service IMO would have been the ticket for our family. This is an example of expansion that could be served by the surge fleet all winter. Al very early airline arrival at Denver airport would allow late night departure from your home and connect directly to the ski train.

If this works another train that would go close to Aspen could also be instituted.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

When I had younger children flew into Denver, rented car and drove to Winter Park. Really did not need car while staying there. Also never liked the drive over Berthoud pass. Promoting this service IMO would have been the ticket for our family. This is an example of expansion that could be served by the surge fleet all winter. Al very early airline arrival at Denver airport would allow late night departure from your home and connect directly to the ski train.

If this works another train that would go close to Aspen could also be instituted.

We did that too, or if my mom came took the train and took the bus (did that to Steamboat too), or had my dad's buddy drive us up.

 

[railiner]

What would really be something, would be if Amtrak could start the Ski Train from the Denver airport using RTD’s line, then pick up at Union Station enroute to Winter Park, or vice versa.

I don’t know if the RTD line is capable of supporting a single Amtrak train. They might need to build an additional platform or some other facility at the airport.

If it is possible, think of the marketing opportunities it would open…

Carrier’s like United, could run code share with Amtrak, perhaps even offering seamless checked baggage service. Of course, that would require services at Winter Park…

 

[Willbridge]

When I had younger children flew into Denver, rented car and drove to Winter Park. Really did not need car while staying there. Also never liked the drive over Berthoud pass. Promoting this service IMO would have been the ticket for our family. This is an example of expansion that could be served by the surge fleet all winter. Al very early airline arrival at Denver airport would allow late night departure from your home and connect directly to the ski train.

If this works another train that would go close to Aspen could also be instituted.

The CZ stop at Glenwood Springs is the closest navigable point for Aspen. ColoRail has worked on the idea of a Colorado Zephyr, running year-round. However, the upscale people on the West Slope who favor rail service want a high-speed line.

The governor's interest in the Denver & Salt Lake line to Craig is because:

1. There already is a heavy-duty railway between Denver and Craig, signalized, though not with PTC.
2. As coal mines shut down, minds are finally focusing on what to do next. This economic shift likely will occur regardless of the White House.
3. The UP has publicly stated that they are looking for other traffic ideas.
4. Denver Union Station + DEN airport is ready to go.
5. Oh yeah, it's a beautiful ride unknown to many.

 

[Willbridge]

What would really be something, would be if Amtrak could start the Ski Train from the Denver airport using RTD’s line, then pick up at Union Station enroute to Winter Park, or vice versa.

I don’t know if the RTD line is capable of supporting a single Amtrak train. They might need to build an additional platform or some other facility at the airport.

If it is possible, think of the marketing opportunities it would open…

Carrier’s like United, could run code share with Amtrak, perhaps even offering seamless checked baggage service. Of course, that would require services at Winter Park…

The cost of the A-Line construction was reduced by single-tracking segments (I was involved in getting the double-track extended into the 40th Avenue station, which is a good turnback point for bus bridges. The contractor proposed a more severe deletion of the originally planned double-track segments.)

That means that the 15-minute headways are all that can be run. And MOW work requires bus bridges. So, with a third track added at DIA and some second main segments, it would be possible. To make it work, some deadhead trips for servicing might also be required.

Someday the Moffat Tunnel will be electrified and then the A-Line can run through to Fraser!

 

[daybeers]

I'd imagine the catenary is too low for Superliners.

 

[railiner]

The cost of the A-Line construction was reduced by single-tracking segments (I was involved in getting the double-track extended into the 40th Avenue station, which is a good turnback point for bus bridges. The contractor proposed a more severe deletion of the originally planned double-track segments.)

That means that the 15-minute headways are all that can be run. And MOW work requires bus bridges. So, with a third track added at DIA and some second main segments, it would be possible. To make it work, some deadhead trips for servicing might also be required.

Someday the Moffat Tunnel will be electrified and then the A-Line can run through to Fraser!

I'd imagine the catenary is too low for Superliners.

Having a local authority like RTD running the Ski Train might even be a better idea, than Amtrak running it. How likely is the entire route to Fraser being electrified? RTD could in the mean time, run some single level train to clear the catenary. if they could squeeze it into their schedule...

 

[Amtrak25]

What would really be something, would be if Amtrak could start the Ski Train from the Denver airport using RTD’s line, then pick up at Union Station enroute to Winter Park, or vice versa.

I don’t know if the RTD line is capable of supporting a single Amtrak train. They might need to build an additional platform or some other facility at the airport.

If it is possible, think of the marketing opportunities it would open…

Carrier’s like United, could run code share with Amtrak, perhaps even offering seamless checked baggage service. Of course, that would require services at Winter Park…

Superliners and high level platforms are not compatible. They also use separate platforms at Denver Union Station.

 

[jis]

I'd imagine the catenary is too low for Superliners.

IIRC the height of catenary is high enough to fit 16' tall Superliners under them. The A-Line trains are 14'8" tall, and something that is just 1'4" taller would appear to leave quite a bit of space to spare between its roof and the catenary as seen in various photos of the A-Line, and clearly the pantographs are capable of reaching the standard height of catenary on the NEC which is high enough to allow operation of Plate H 20' tall freight cars under them.

 

[Amtrak25]

I'd imagine the catenary is too low for Superliners.

Doesn't Amtrak in navigating into its own center tracks in DUS, cross under RTD's catenary in the process ?

What becomes of RMR equipment during Ski train season ? Does it operate ?

 

[MARC Rider]

You know, if you're going to go to all the trouble of an electrified ski train that serves DIA as well as Denver Union Station, why not go the whole way and get fully ADA compliant single level equipment with open gangway between the cars and Swiss style panorama windows to let in the views. Then the Superliners can be released for long distance service.

 

[railiner]

You know, if you're going to go to all the trouble of an electrified ski train that serves DIA as well as Denver Union Station, why not go the whole way and get fully ADA compliant single level equipment with open gangway between the cars and Swiss style panorama windows to let in the views. Then the Superliners can be released for long distance service.

This!

 

[Cal]

Doesn't Amtrak in navigating into its own center tracks in DUS, cross under RTD's catenary in the process ?

Yes they do, catenary does not necessarily stop superliners.

 

[Septa9739]

The CZ stop at Glenwood Springs is the closest navigable point for Aspen. ColoRail has worked on the idea of a Colorado Zephyr, running year-round. However, the upscale people on the West Slope who favor rail service want a high-speed line.

Upscale people and their whimsical ideas that someone is going to pay for a high speed line through one of the largest mountain ranges in the world to their small cities aside, how difficult would it be to get service from Denver to Grand Junction? Both are crew bases (I think), the line never seems busy those rare times I ride it, and the schedule would be workable, especially without all the padding the Zephyr gets. It’s a busy segment. UP doesn’t seem terribly interested in keeping slots. Could this really be as simple as negotiating trackage rights and exercising a couple AIRO options?

 

[Willbridge]

Upscale people and their whimsical ideas that someone is going to pay for a high speed line through one of the largest mountain ranges in the world to their small cities aside, how difficult would it be to get service from Denver to Grand Junction? Both are crew bases (I think), the line never seems busy those rare times I ride it, and the schedule would be workable, especially without all the padding the Zephyr gets. It’s a busy segment. UP doesn’t seem terribly interested in keeping slots. Could this really be as simple as negotiating trackage rights and exercising a couple AIRO options?

Yes, DEN <> GJC is pretty simple compared to starting service in other places. There are a couple of potential additional stops, but they would not be critical for a start-up.

BTW, in 1949 there were five daily passenger trains through the Moffat Tunnel in each direction, not to mention the ski train.

 

[MARC Rider]

However, the upscale people on the West Slope who favor rail service want a high-speed line.

"High speed rail?" They're not even planning that for the Front Range service, where High Speed rail might actually serve a lot more people and make more sense. Heck, they can't even get true high-speed rail going in the Northeast Corridor which serves a population of 50 million and connects the political, business and cultural capitals of the country. And someone thinks that the taxpayers are going to pay for a Shinkansen line right through the highest part of the Rocky Mountains just to serve the West Slope?

Perhaps the "upscale people" out there are thinking more of "higher speed rail?" Or at least multiple trains per day that reliably run on a schedule at least somewhat competitive with driving (and maybe more reliable when it snows). Would it be possible to run trains between Denver and Grand Junction with an average point to point speed of 60 mph?

 

[poncho]

They've got the public information on the website already. With a calendar error:
https://www.amtrak.com/winterparkexpress

https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/ne...s-sales-expanded-holiday-winter-season-trips/

https://gazette.com/life/skiing-sno...cle_fbda98f0-9fc8-5039-9248-ba684860d00a.html (bypass paywall).

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...r-park-express-ski-train-expands-dates-route/

The local Fraser paper explains how the service is being expanded:
https://www.skyhinews.com/news/trai...cheaper-tickets-expanded-service-this-season/

Tourism wheels are turning. This is going to be a great experiment. The tourism people in Denver have gradually caught on that people fly into DEN, book hotel rooms "to adjust to the altitude" and take the train to ski. Now that's being promoted.
https://www.denver.org/articles/pos...25-winter-season-including-the-2024-december/

I've done just that. I live in Seattle. Frontier Airlines has dirt cheap flights to Denver. Stay Downtown. Love skiing Winter Park.

Unfortunately I passed on a Ikon pass this year and one day tickets at Winter Park are steep

 

[Willbridge]

"High speed rail?" They're not even planning that for the Front Range service, where High Speed rail might actually serve a lot more people and make more sense. Heck, they can't even get true high-speed rail going in the Northeast Corridor which serves a population of 50 million and connects the political, business and cultural capitals of the country. And someone thinks that the taxpayers are going to pay for a Shinkansen line right through the highest part of the Rocky Mountains just to serve the West Slope?

Perhaps the "upscale people" out there are thinking more of "higher speed rail?" Or at least multiple trains per day that reliably run on a schedule at least somewhat competitive with driving (and maybe more reliable when it snows). Would it be possible to run trains between Denver and Grand Junction with an average point to point speed of 60 mph?

They want new technology. Some are also interested only in going to DEN airport directly.

 

[railiner]

They want new technology. Some are also interested only in going to DEN airport directly.

Winter Park is in a somewhat unique position, among major Colorado ski resorts. Besides being served by seasonal direct rail service by a ski train, they also have a daily Amtrak transcontinental train stopping close by. In addition, there are no nearby commercial airports.

 

[west point]

Aspen airport is closest airport. It is no fun. Most carriers require special qualifications into it and would not ride with anyone who has not gone thru the quals.