Without additional funding, how can Amtrak improve the LD trains?

[MARC Rider]

[QUOTE="crescent-zephyr, post: 855973, member: 10983"

If so few people are riding these trains overnight they need to be discontinued because they are not serving their purpose.
[/QUOTE]

Tell that to the folks who ride the train between, say, Toledo and Chicago, or Trinidad and Albuquerque, or Minot and Havre, etc. Look at the RPA data tables on LD train ridership. Most trips are a few to a couple of hundred miles or less. The percentage of Amtrak passengers actually traveling all the way across the country and spending 3 nights on the train is minuscule relative to total ridership. The only reason for a taxpayer-funded transportation company to provide premium service is that it boosts revenue, but the cost of providing the premium service shouldn't be so high that the net revenue boost disappears. We really don't know how much it costs to provide traditional sleeping car and dining car service, and its possible that it's not as ruinously expensive as the anti-LD people say it is. However, if Amtrak can cut the cost of providing the premium service and not lose that many riders, they'll rake in even more net revenue, thus possibly reducing the need for a taxpayer subsidy for the coach service, which is where most of the ridership is.

I suspect that most overnight passengers would be perfectly satisfied with a flex-dining-like product if the meals were better quality and the menu had a some more variety. (And it was also available to coach passengers) Yeah, it would still suck (well, not be the finest dining experience) for three nights and 4 days on the rails, but why should the company cater to a small, demanding subset of its total customer base? Anyway, much as I enjoy the dining car experience, I don't ride the train primarily to eat, I save that for when I arrive at my destination.

 

[MARC Rider]

Nobody is demanding white-glove service, nor has Amtrak ever provided such. And most Amtrak passengers don't travel overnight period, because the vast majority of its trains are day runs on clusters of corridors in the Northeast, Midwest and California. But Congress created Amtrak to run a passenger rail system that's national in scope, and I think there are a lot of members of Congress who understand that, if they want rail service that connects all parts of the country, overnight trains are the most efficient way to provide that. And if you're going to run overnight trains that people ride for 20 or 30 hours, you need to be able to feed people onboard and treat them well enough that they're willing to use the service, because most people really do have other choices.

Most people riding the long distance trains don't travel overnight, either.
https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3435/ld.pdf

 

[Qapla]

It takes 17-19 hours to travel from JAX to NYP (28 from MIA and 25 from Tampa). To justify the difference in the cost between coach and sleeper (about $360 difference) more is needed than a "horizontal sleeping mat" that is used less than half that travel time. By degrading the service - removing amenities, lousy food, no coffee/soda available at the rooms - it makes it much harder to justify the price differential.

Perhaps, if the sleeper cost was not so much greater than coach - more people would opt for a sleeper.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I suspect that most overnight passengers would be perfectly satisfied with a flex-dining-like product if the meals were better quality and the menu had a some more variety.

I agree. That’s what I’ve been asking for. Better quality entrees or take the service away and just let people buy from the lounge.

 

[Nick Farr]

Shopping for better quality and selection of meals should be able to be done at minimal expense. Surely there are vendors who would be willing to offer a better selection than the current eating fare - at the same, or possibly lower, cost. It is a very competitive market.

⬆⬆ THIS ⬆⬆

While it's more work on management's part, there's lots of opportunities to win over Congress AND support communities along the way. Why can't Amtrak offering catering contracts to independent providers in smaller communities along the routes.

Why not just start small and offer pre-ordered specials along each route for dinner, prepared and delivered by a local provider? The Big Sky Chicken Dinners is a good precedent for this. This is also a great way to put restaurants in need back to work.

I started this thread to explore actionable solutions Amtrak management could take given COVID and Congressional constraints.

Personally, I'm against those amenities kits, but it's still a great idea and very well thought out.

The Frozen Dining meals will always be a backup option in the event of a service disruption (late train, etc.)

 

[jis]

I don't think frozen dining meals will ever be an option to handle service disruptions. It costs too much in resources to carry around a bunch of frozen meals just in case there is a disruption. For disruptions it will be Dinty Moore or equivalent that does not require fancy refrigerated storage etc.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I don't think frozen dining meals will ever be an option to handle service disruptions. It costs too much in resources to carry around a bunch of frozen meals just in case there is a disruption. For disruptions it will be Dinty Moore or equivalent that does not require fancy refrigerated storage etc.

Disruptions also get easy to cater quickly options like KFC or Chik-fil-a.

 

[Sidney]

I agree with Qapla. I find the cost of a roomette on the Silver service to be outrageously high. It's a one night trip,the food is very average and there are no other amenities. On the other hand,low bucket roomettes on the Empire Builder Chi-Sea are about $50 more and are two nights and until the pedemic offered full service dining.

When I traveled on the Star between Fort Lauderdale and Philly I would go Coach to Okeechobee ,a roomette to Raleigh and back to Coach for the rest of the trip saving about $100.

 

[jis]

Disruptions also get easy to cater quickly options like KFC or Chik-fil-a.

Yup that works uless you are stuck in the boonies a hundred miles from the closest fast food joint with no real roads around. That is why a stock of Dinty Moore is carried on each train.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Yup that works uless you are stuck in the boonies a hundred miles from the closest fast food joint with no real roads around. That is why a stock of Dinty Moore is carried on each train.

Is it still? Can the lsa open a can and cook it? (That’s a serious question... union rules are weird).

 

[Seaboard92]

It takes 17-19 hours to travel from JAX to NYP (28 from MIA and 25 from Tampa). To justify the difference in the cost between coach and sleeper (about $360 difference) more is needed than a "horizontal sleeping mat" that is used less than half that travel time. By degrading the service - removing amenities, lousy food, no coffee/soda available at the rooms - it makes it much harder to justify the price differential.

Perhaps, if the sleeper cost was not so much greater than coach - more people would opt for a sleeper.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say. If the only difference is a horizontal sleeping mat, and a door for privacy what makes it worth the upgrade. Amtrak's sleeper soft product stinks and everyone knows it. The hard product is slightly better but it is not as good as VIAs hard product.

And in coach Amtrak's soft product is non existent. Even though you had to pay for meals in the diner that does count as part of the soft product, that was till Amtrak took that away.

Now me personally I will do a sleeper for anything above four hours on the east coast because I like my privacy and I value that. But on a superliner as long as their is a sightseer lounge and it's a day trip I wouldn't mind on coach.

I don't think frozen dining meals will ever be an option to handle service disruptions. It costs too much in resources to carry around a bunch of frozen meals just in case there is a disruption. For disruptions it will be Dinty Moore or equivalent that does not require fancy refrigerated storage etc.

If you could get someone to modify the 238 rules just for the diners it would make a lot of sense to have a generator on board. Almost all PVs have a generator for times they are running without head end power during switching, or on shortlines where it isn't available. It keeps your chilled items chilled, and it keeps the HVAC running. There are some cars with a large enough genset under them they can power up to three cars including themselves. Now those were the IPH Full Domes which had a massive genset on the car. But even a standard single level can sometimes have a Genset good enough to power itself and a neighbor. If you could just modify those rules you could easily throw a genset under the car which would be used only for when the HEP is dropped to keep food cold. If that's its only purpose chances are you could get away with a 10-20kw unit. But if you are wanting to power everything in the car 60-70kw would be needed.

 

[fdaley]

Most people riding the long distance trains don't travel overnight, either.
https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3435/ld.pdf

When I follow this link, it says the average trip length for a sleeper passenger in FY19 was 990 miles, which almost certainly would involve an overnight ride, and the average length of trip for coach passengers was 457 miles, which at Amtrak speeds likely translates to a ride of 8-10 hours if on time. Either way, we're probably talking two meal periods for a coach passenger and three meals for the average sleeper passenger. At those distances, the food starts to become important.

 

[MARC Rider]

It takes 17-19 hours to travel from JAX to NYP (28 from MIA and 25 from Tampa). To justify the difference in the cost between coach and sleeper (about $360 difference) more is needed than a "horizontal sleeping mat" that is used less than half that travel time. By degrading the service - removing amenities, lousy food, no coffee/soda available at the rooms - it makes it much harder to justify the price differential.

Perhaps, if the sleeper cost was not so much greater than coach - more people would opt for a sleeper.

I'm not much of a math whiz, but I would guess that there's some sort of optimization function that would be able to calculate the net revenue from premium service on the basis of (1) the cost of providing service amenities at varying levels, (2) the accommodation charge, and (3) the expected passenger load expected on the basis of the amenity level and the accommodation charge. It's possible that Amtrak has done this and their calculations show that they will make more net revenue in the end by having fewer sleeper passengers paying higher fares for fewer service amenities than they would get from filling up the sleepers and providing high quality service or filling up the sleepers with low fares and low service levels. Of course, it's also possible that the company leadership has a story in its head about what train service is all about, and they don't want to be bothered with the facts.

Given that the extra revenue from the premium service, like sleepers, does a lot to cross-subsidize the total operations of the train and reduce the need for taxpayer subsidies, if I were in an oversight position (GAO, IG, Member of Congress, etc.), I'd pay very close attention to the accounting for the premium services and be very demanding to Amtrak management to reveal how they make decisions about service levels and fares. Sure, it's possible that sleepers are mainly used as a land cruise by retirees (probably not true, at that), but if such passengers actually contribute to the bottom line, then so what? I've always thought that the trains should be run primarily as transportation and not as "hospitality," but but if the financials can show otherwise, I might be wrong.

 

[MARC Rider]

If you could get someone to modify the 238 rules just for the diners it would make a lot of sense to have a generator on board. Almost all PVs have a generator for times they are running without head end power during switching, or on shortlines where it isn't available. It keeps your chilled items chilled, and it keeps the HVAC running. There are some cars with a large enough genset under them they can power up to three cars including themselves. Now those were the IPH Full Domes which had a massive genset on the car. But even a standard single level can sometimes have a Genset good enough to power itself and a neighbor. If you could just modify those rules you could easily throw a genset under the car which would be used only for when the HEP is dropped to keep food cold. If that's its only purpose chances are you could get away with a 10-20kw unit. But if you are wanting to power everything in the car 60-70kw would be needed.

Why do the 238 rules ban gensets? They're widely mounted on long-haul trucks (for hotel power during driver rest breaks) and RV's, and I've never heard of them being a safety menace on the highways. How about back-up batteries? We had some vendors tell us that they have backup batteries that can provide 8 hours plus hotel power for an 18-wheeler sleeper cab. Is the technology developed enough for rail use? Would backup batteries be in compliance with the 238 rules?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Why do the 238 rules ban gensets?

Why does it matter, lots of rules don’t make sense. But if they are a rule, they are a rule.

 

[MARC Rider]

When I follow this link, it says the average trip length for a sleeper passenger in FY19 was 990 miles, which almost certainly would involve an overnight ride, and the average length of trip for coach passengers was 457 miles, which at Amtrak speeds likely translates to a ride of 8-10 hours if on time. Either way, we're probably talking two meal periods for coach passenger and three meals for the average sleeper passenger. At those distances, the food starts to become important.

Of course most sleeper passenger are traveling overnight, but they're a small percentage of the total passengers. As far as coach passengers, yes, for all day trips, food service is important, but the cafe car can provide that. I know, because I take a lot of ~300 - 400 mile day trips on the Palmetto, Carolinian, and Vermonter and I'm fine with the stuff from the cafe car, and it seems that these trains are doing fine without dining cars.

 

[fdaley]

While it's more work on management's part, there's lots of opportunities to win over Congress AND support communities along the way. Why can't Amtrak offering catering contracts to independent providers in smaller communities along the routes.

Why not just start small and offer pre-ordered specials along each route for dinner, prepared and delivered by a local provider? The Big Sky Chicken Dinners is a good precedent for this. This is also a great way to put restaurants in need back to work.

My first inclination reading this is to imagine how quickly it could descend into a logistical nightmare with Amtrak, which isn't exactly known for its organizational nimbleness. But if it could be done reliably and well, there would be real advantages. Chief among them would be the possibility of regional variety in the dining menus, depending on the train or even the meal. Even with the traditional dining in recent years, one of the big complaints of people on cross-country trips was that the same dinner entrees, side dishes and desserts were repeated night after night on train after train. All of that has gotten much worse with flex dining, given that the lunch and dinner choices are now identical and cooked breakfasts have basically been eliminated. And of course, the quality of the meals provided by en-route caterers would likely be vastly better than the flex meals.

Perhaps a pilot project on one or two trains could test the potential. I nominate Seaboard92 to help us work up a proposal.

 

[MARC Rider]

Why does it matter, lots of rules don’t make sense. But if they are a rule, they are a rule.

That's not the attitude to have. As an EPA alumnus, I believe in strong government regulation, but not arbitrary rules for the sake of rules. If this is part of the Code of Federal Regulations, the agency involved (FRA?) had to do a "rulemaking," a long and involved process that requires, among other things, that the agency has to have a reason for making the rule. Usually all kinds of technical analysis and justification is required and must be presented for public comment. If the people who are negatively affected are annoyed enough, they can sue the agency to have the rule overturned. Presumably, this was done for these 238 rules, and there are reasons for each and every one of them. However, things can change over time, and perhaps the reasons for the rule no longer apply. In that case, there's certainly no reason why those affected by the rule can't agitate to the Agency or its political overseers that a review of the rule is in order. Who knows? Maybe the rule will be changed.

 

[Nick Farr]

I agree. That’s what I’ve been asking for. Better quality entrees or take the service away and just let people buy from the lounge.

I don't think taking the service away entirely is feasible--there are plenty of people who find the available options acceptable. They're not as awful as people make them out to be, I'm sure most passengers will be OK with them.

However, I do agree that sleeping car passengers should be given the option to pick items from the lounge instead. Implementing this change is definitely possible, but it would be much easier to do if we gave the OBS devices to process these changes.

 

[Nick Farr]

Presumably, this was done for these 238 rules, and there are reasons for each and every one of them. However, things can change over time, and perhaps the reasons for the rule no longer apply.

The 238 rules are actually quite sound. If anything, they should probably be enhanced as Amtrak contemplates new equipment. They're far from arbitrary safety standards.

The reason that Private Cars are exempt is because most of those cars are historical pieces kept around for pleasure cruise purposes. They're generally more fancy toys than transit. Things like generators and fuel they need to run IS a big fire hazard and thus make most of these cars unsuitable for the general public.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I don't think taking the service away entirely is feasible--there are plenty of people who find the available options acceptable. They're not as awful as people make them out to be, I'm sure most passengers will be OK with them.

However, I do agree that sleeping car passengers should be given the option to pick items from the lounge instead. Implementing this change is definitely possible, but it would be much easier to do if we gave the OBS devices to process these changes.

Amtrak has proven that it is feasible. I don’t suggest things that aren’t possible. The silver star operated for years without a diner. I prefer that vs. the flex dining.

We do agree on the lounge issue. Hey I can even get my famous entree salad there!! Win win

 

[jiml]

We do agree on the lounge issue. Hey I can even get my famous entree salad there!! Win win

Unless they don't have any - like my last 9+ hour trip in Amtrak Business Class. Of the three listed sandwich choices they had only one and no salads, which my wife wanted.

 

[railiner]

Prior to the Amtrak conversion of Heritage cars to Head End Power, besides the full dome lounges, the entire former Santa Fe 'Hi-Level' fleet were equipped with individual Enginator's, IIRC...it did not seem to be a hazard back then...
Of course, they did not run under the North River tunnels into New York, where even propane tanks were banned in diner's, hence the use of archaic Pres-to-logs to fuel the diner stoves....

 

[jis]

Is it still? Can the lsa open a can and cook it? (That’s a serious question... union rules are weird).

Since I have pretty recently had a treat of tasty Dinty Moore when stuck somewhere in the middle of nowhere, I would assume that at least on that run they still had them, unless an unexpected use of teleporter or something happened

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Since I have pretty recently had a treat of tasty Dinty Moore when stuck somewhere in the middle of nowhere, I would assume that at least on that run they still had them, unless an unexpected use of teleporter or something happened

What’s “pretty recently” ? Since the flex dining meals?