Woman suing over Empire Builder rape case

[crescent-zephyr]

There IS a supervisor on board! He or she is called the Conductor!

Or do you mean someone who watches over you all the time?

When I worked for the IRS in Arizona, my Supervisor was in Phoenix - 260 miles away. Then due to a realignment of districts, my Supervisor was in Las Vegas - 125 miles away. My Supervisor did not look over my shoulder every day, but I did have to report to her.

The last I hear the LSA was the manager of OBS correct?
So in the IRS office there was no office manager? seems odd.

So you yourself admit there WAS a Supervisor on board! And yes, the LSA is the Supervisor of OBS, and while onboard the Conductor is the Supervisor of the LSA.
My IRS office was a satellite office. It consisted of 1 Tax Auditor (myself), 2 Revenue Agents And 2 Revenue Officers.

I had meant a supervisor position like the previous Chief of On board services or the train manager position (can't remember the title) on VIA rail.

 

[Thirdrail7]

According to the article Amtrak did take complaints seriously and fired this employee in the past. But thanks to special protections afforded to union members and railway employees they were later forced to rehire him again.

Perhaps I am reading this incorrectly but it seems to me that he was fired twice. Once in roughly 2002 and once in 2006:

But Michael George, the victim's Great Falls attorney, alleges Amtrak had records of Pinner's employee misconduct from 2000, specifically incidents of hostility against white women, when he told a female co-worker, "You're the typical garden variety type, and that's a typical Anglo-Saxon trait," and on the same day told another, "I have no trouble strangling a white woman."

Two years later, another complaint was filed against Pinner for violating Amtrak's personal conduct, honesty and safety policies. Court records don't include any specifics about the violation, but Pinner was dismissed as a result of the complaint, although he was reinstated five months later, according to court documents

And in 2006, the train company launched a "formal investigation" into Pinner for reportedly selling pornography while on the job. The company reportedly learned about Pinner's endeavors when he told a van driver he was selling X-rated adult videos, and handed the driver a bag of them.Court documents filed by Amtrak attorneys state the company did act on Pinner's misconduct, and actually terminated him in 2006.

In all my years of riding on Amtrak I've never once seen an on-duty conductor actively counter or correct the actions of a sleeper/coach attendant or dining crew. Nor does Amtrak ever bother to explain to their customers how their structure of escalation and accountability is supposed to work. Even if you call Amtrak while on the train they cannot seem to do anything to resolve a dispute while you're still aboard. So far as I can tell Amtrak offers no practical method for immediate conflict resolution other than kicking the customer off the train.

It used to happen quite a bit. However, it calmed down when the Boardman regime came in. The lines became blurred under layers of management and protocol. When Gunn was in charge, it was a pot luck. Crew members and passengers alike were booted off the train. I remember a conductor that had his engineer dragged off in handcuffs mid trip! Hopefully, Moorman's plan to streamline management will bring back an era of clear responsibility and accountability.

This is terrible for the lady involved and I would think if they had a shred of decency, a settlement would occur ASAP.

 

[LookingGlassTie]

All I can say is "wow"!!

 

[Charles785]

Why is it so difficult to fire these unionized workers, even ones with criminal backgrounds as in the

case of this Pinner guy? According to the story in the Great Falls Tribune he had a rap sheet

that included felony robbery and drug trafficking, and he was quoted as having told an Amtrak

co-worker that "I would have no trouble strangling a white woman." At best he sounds like

one surly son of a gun who certainly doesn't belong in any kind of customer service work.

It's difficult to believe whatever labor union he was part of would be required to defend a guy like

that. And if some law required a union to defend someone like that, then the law needs to be

changed.

 

[Lonestar648]

First, This poor woman should be taken care of immediately, medically, psychologically, and financially. Then Amtrak management must dissect the crime to find the the points where in the decision process failure occurred. I would hope that the unions could be involved, even quietly, to help root out such criminals who are dangerous to the safety and welfare of passengers and crew. Passengers need to feel safe on board, and parents need to feel it is safe to bring their children. Does the Union feel they have to support a member who has committed a major felony, basically stating it is permissible to murder, rape, and brutalize passengers? Deep background checks are needed, Amtrak needs a policy of no felony criminal records and suspended if indited until convicted, then terminated. Amtrak and the Unions have to make sure everyone is as safe as possible from predators.

 

[west point]

Have no idea if possible but maybe the arbitration board or whom ever should be sued as well for requiring a person such as this to be re instated ? Maybe that would give it more push towards terminations for bad conduct ?

 

[the_traveler]

I am confused!

If he is serving 60 years and was in prison in late November 2017 in MT, how is he reinstated and now working for Amtrak?

 

[SarahZ]

I am confused!

If he is serving 60 years and was in prison in late November 2017 in MT, how is he reinstated and now working for Amtrak?

He was reinstated before the rape occurred. That's why she's suing.

 

[tricia]

From the article at link provided by OP:

"Court documents filed by Amtrak attorneys state the company did act on Pinner's misconduct, and actually terminated him in 2006. Pinner, backed by his union, appealed his firing and a binding Board determined the discipline was too severe. Pinner was again reinstated and worked with the train company until Oct. 1, 2015, when he was terminated for the rape in Roosevelt County, Montana approximately six months after it took place on April 19. Court documents also state the company launched its own formal investigation into the incident on May 6."

Six months?!? I hope he was NOT working on trains during those six months, but see little in Amtrak's reported handling of this that's reassuing about that. Geez, did it really take more than 2 weeks before Amtrak "launched its own formal investigation?"

I'm female and almost always travel alone on LD trains. This story makes me wonder how delusional I've been about safety.

 

[Lonestar648]

Can't say if this happened, but when a felony occurred with the company I worked for, the company waited for the police to complete their preliminary on sight investigation. The reasoning was to not interfere with the primary criminal investigation. Unofficially,and behind the scenes, I was aware that our company started an investigation almost immediately. The person in question was immediately suspended with pay, then terminated in conjunction with the police report.

 

[tricia]

I also really dislike the fact that Amtrak is saying "it's not our fault" instead of saying "we are currently conducting complete background checks on all employees, along with retraining staff to make sure nothing like this ever happens again"

This ^ (Wish we had a "like" button on this forum. Also a sarcasm emoji)

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I'm female and almost always travel alone on LD trains. This story makes me wonder how delusional I've been about safety.

I’m female and travel alone and do not let things like this keep me from enjoying my travels. I feel just as safe traveling as I do at home.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[Steve4031]

Iirc the passenger did not immediately report the rape. She waited until after the trip was completed. Thus there would have been a delay in the start of the process.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[LookingGlassTie]

To (possibly) answer Charles785's question, this guy probably had the "powers that be" over a barrel. You know, the whole discrimination/identity politics stuff, given his background. Sounds like a classic case of one area of law tripping over another one, with collateral damage.

 

[GBNorman]

While hardly surprising the incident being discussed is hardly the "one and only". Here is a first person account of another:

http://www.livinglearninglovinglife.com/2014/11/guest-post-i-was-sexually-assaulted-aboard-an-amtrak-train-itsourstory.html

And a piece of advice from within to Amtrak to which they ought to give serious consideration:

For CRYING OUT LOUD they need armrests that can be put down when you are sitting next to someone who is a stranger to you. It makes it so that you are basically sitting in a loveseat shaped space with someone you dont know!!!!

 

[jis]

IMHO, Amtrak's attempts to wash its hands off all responsibility is shameful. But I guess as a legal strategy, it is what it is.

But the possible memes that can come out of this on the likes of Facebook is pretty alarming, if some anti-Amtrak entity gets hold of this and decides to run with it. It could be a public relations disaster. Much worse nightmare than say what United faced with the guy who was dragged off the plane.

 

[neroden]

I would say that the woman should name the union *and* the "Board" which ordered the rapist rehired as defendants along with Amtrak. And frankly Amtrak should join and sue them too. The union's inexcusable behavior in getting the rapist reinstated after Amtrak quite justifiably fired him for a long series of criminal and firing offences makes the union liable. A union is not a lawyer: it is not obliged to defend admitted, indefensible behavior and it is actually not supposed to.

 

[neroden]

Why is it so difficult to fire these unionized workers, even ones with criminal backgrounds as in the

case of this Pinner guy?

Because the Railway Labor Board is saffed with -- frankly -- criminals who belong in prison. There's no other way to describe it. This woman absolutely should have named the Railway Labor Board as coconsiprators and charged *them*. They're not immune.

 

[tricia]

IMHO, Amtrak's attempts to wash its hands off all responsibility is shameful. But I guess as a legal strategy, it is what it is.

But the possible memes that can come out of this on the likes of Facebook is pretty alarming, if some anti-Amtrak entity gets hold of this and decides to run with it. It could be a public relations disaster. Much worse nightmare than say what United faced with the guy who was dragged off the plane.

This SHOULD be a public relations disaster for Amtrak, if their attitude to assaults on passengers on their trains is effectively "sh** happens, not our fault."

Common carriers are held to a higher standard of care because passengers are utterly reliant on them for safety and security while on board. ALL of Amtrak's onboard staff need to be trained to be vigilant for episodes of assault, and to treat responding to any such event as a top priority: make sure the passenger is OK, and make sure any alleged perpetrator is immediately isolated from other passengers. By "vigilant" I mean routinely keeping an eye out for circumstances that seem "off" and following up to make sure everyone is OK, instead of following the natural inclination to treat anything out of the way as interference with doing one's job.

Amtrak also needs to do a better job communicating to passengers that if they encounter any personal threat they can and should approach ANY Amtrak staff to report the problem. If they can do this for the extremely rare problem of terrorist activity ("if you see something, say something"), surely they can do something similar for the much more common problem of assault.

And, yeah, they do need armrests between passengers, especially on overnight trains.

 

[neroden]

This incident will cost Amtrak "heap big wampum" - and it should!

By now, Amtrak knows, or at least should, that they must be extra vigilant in the hiring process, and that the background check complete before one is ever hired - especially for public contact work. Even the Union, the ASWC, had to know this guy was "trouble", but they knew that if they did not defend him through all levels of the discipline and appeals process under the Agreement and the Railway Labor Act, he would turn around and seek damages under the "failure to represent" provisions of the Landrum-Griffin Act.

But who are the real losers - the vast majority of Amtrak employees who do their jobs courteously and efficiently - and all the time putting up with "crap" too voluminous to discuss here.

I read the Landrum-Griffin Act. There are no "failure to represent" provisions. Are you referring to something else?

As far as I can tell, the union had absolutely zero obligation to defend him when the rapist was fired the second time -- for illegally and in violation of his job requirements conducting unlicensed private for-profit business while on duty. While the union might be supposed to defend him the *first* time when he was fired for bigoted remarks, the *2006* firing isn't at all questionable: he admitted to a totally blatant violation of his job duties with no excuse and for personal gain. The union was out of line in attempting to defend him, and the RLB ruling is unsustainable.

It would have been correct for Amtrak to simply refuse to rehire him and to appeal the RLB ruling to the Supreme Court on the grounds that the public safety requires that they cannot rehire someone who is bringing disrepute on the company by violating his contract, and the law, for the purpose of private profit. It would be good to set a precedent and smack down the criminals on the RLB.

 

[jis]

The lack of armrests in Coach in Amtrak trains has always seemed bit odd to me since the first time I encountered such. I have commented on it here in the past, and as usual got a barrage of silly justifications from mindless Amtrak apologists.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[GBNorman]

Mr. Nerode, having spent three years of my eleven year railroad career in Labor Relations, I can assure you that "failure to represent" is a provision under the Landrum-Griffin Act:

https://www.nlrb.gov/who-we-are/our-history/1959-landrum-griffin-act

Even though the Railway Labor Act was enacted prior to the "Trilogy" (Wagner, Taft-Hartley, Landrum-Griffin), the Trilogy has jurisdiction over railroad labor relations to the extent that the Act's provisions do not conflict with the Trilogy.

Now a word on the "Boards" under the Act. The (RLA) Act established the National Railroad Adjustent Board, which was divided into four Divisions to adjudicate cases final and binding along craft lines. However, the load of cases exceeded the Board's capacity to make timely adjudications of matters regarding work rules and discipline, so there was enacted legislation establishing Boards of arbitration, known within the industry known as Public Law Boards.

While I am removed from the industry and my second career for now 36 years (third career was as a CPA in private practice from which I retired during '03, first military service), I hope this helps.

 

[railiner]

The lack of armrests in Coach in Amtrak trains has always seemed bit odd to me since the first time I encountered such. I have commented on it here in the past, and as usual got a barrage of silly justifications from mindless Amtrak apologists.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

Me too.....IIRC, the original Amfleet cars had 'em.....when the Amfleet II cars came, I believe they were removed. I too am annoyed by seatmates "encroaching" on my space, that a center arm rest would help preserve to some extent....Even one that could be raised up, if the adjacent seat remained empty....

 

[Steve4031]

I took a quick look on the internet at high speed train interiors and tgv and ice trains both have armrests in 1st and second class. The seats on those trains are better than amtraks seats IMHO.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

IMHO, Amtrak's attempts to wash its hands off all responsibility is shameful. But I guess as a legal strategy, it is what it is.

But the possible memes that can come out of this on the likes of Facebook is pretty alarming, if some anti-Amtrak entity gets hold of this and decides to run with it. It could be a public relations disaster. Much worse nightmare than say what United faced with the guy who was dragged off the plane.

This SHOULD be a public relations disaster for Amtrak, if their attitude to assaults on passengers on their trains is effectively "sh** happens, not our fault."

Common carriers are held to a higher standard of care because passengers are utterly reliant on them for safety and security while on board. ALL of Amtrak's onboard staff need to be trained to be vigilant for episodes of assault, and to treat responding to any such event as a top priority: make sure the passenger is OK, and make sure any alleged perpetrator is immediately isolated from other passengers. By "vigilant" I mean routinely keeping an eye out for circumstances that seem "off" and following up to make sure everyone is OK, instead of following the natural inclination to treat anything out of the way as interference with doing one's job.

Amtrak also needs to do a better job communicating to passengers that if they encounter any personal threat they can and should approach ANY Amtrak staff to report the problem. If they can do this for the extremely rare problem of terrorist activity ("if you see something, say something"), surely they can do something similar for the much more common problem of assault.

And, yeah, they do need armrests between passengers, especially on overnight trains.

I agree completely with everything tricia says here. I for one will stop promoting Amtrak to my friends and relatives until Amtrak finds a conscience.

And although the nightmare of what happened will never go away, I also hope the woman this horrible, dreadful thing happened to will be able to find healing and some peace.