Acela II RFP information announcement

[jis]

From the reading the press release some of the 2.5 billion will go to the new Moynihan train station? Its really a go then? The biggest basement in the world is about to be replaced?...........tears of joy are streaming down my face.....

No. $2.5 billion is not going to Moynihan Station. Most of it is going to buy the Acela IIs. Read the press release very very carefully paying attention to it without applying any prejudices to its interpretation

 

[frequentflyer]

From the reading the press release some of the 2.5 billion will go to the new Moynihan train station? Its really a go then? The biggest basement in the world is about to be replaced?...........tears of joy are streaming down my face.....

No. $2.5 billion is not going to Moynihan Station. Most of it is going to buy the Acela IIs. Read the press release very very carefully paying attention to it without applying any prejudices to its interpretation

"As part of a $2.45 billion loan from the Federal Railroad Administration’s (FRA) Railroad Rehabilitation & Improvement Financing (RRIF) program, Amtrak will invest in significant station improvements at Washington Union Station, Moynihan Station New York, as well as safety, track capacity and ride quality improvements to the NEC."

 

[frequentflyer]

So its a Pendolino then, Amtrak is smart to use trusted and tested technology. Less chances of teething problems.

Oh and a new livery too, should look good on the Sprinters too. Of course by 2022 will Amfleet still be running the rails or will their replacement wear this new livery too.

I would not put much stock in the livery shown on 2016 renderings and video. When the Acela order was announced in 1997, the trainset was called "American Flyer" and it had a relatively traditional livery. When it entered revenue service in late 2000, it was Acela Express, and had the blue glob livery.

American Flyer / Acela Express

So true about the livery, but the "American Flyer" livery was pretty close to the one that debuted on Acela.

 

[frequentflyer]

Avelia Liberty...................Lets hope that Amtrak will not would throw away the Acela brand equity built up over the years.

Avelia Liberty equals American Flyer. We hope.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Avelia is Alstom's new brand name for their HSTs, similar to Siemens Velaro....

 

[jis]

From the reading the press release some of the 2.5 billion will go to the new Moynihan train station? Its really a go then? The biggest basement in the world is about to be replaced?...........tears of joy are streaming down my face.....

No. $2.5 billion is not going to Moynihan Station. Most of it is going to buy the Acela IIs. Read the press release very very carefully paying attention to it without applying any prejudices to its interpretation

"As part of a $2.45 billion loan from the Federal Railroad Administration’s (FRA) Railroad Rehabilitation & Improvement Financing (RRIF) program, Amtrak will invest in significant station improvements at Washington Union Station, Moynihan Station New York, as well as safety, track capacity and ride quality improvements to the NEC."

After funding the train purchase what will be left will be about $250 million. Primarily that will be used for improving maintenance facilities and other stuff to enable proper use of the equipment. I bet quite a bit will go towards constant tension catenary in Maryland and such. There will be minor crumbs left form this for actual investment in passenger side facility at stations, since there is so much that still needs to be done to even have them be able to really run at 160mph.

Of course we will know for sure only after we see a breakdown.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Will the current Acela fleet be completely life expired by 2021? At only twenty-one years old, it seems like they would have some life in them.

Might be this another good opportunity for VIA Rail Canada to acquire the Acelas, and electrify the core of the Ontario / Quebec corridor?

 

[jis]

Will the current Acela fleet be completely life expired by 2021? At only twenty-one years old, it seems like they would have some life in them.

Might be this another good opportunity for VIA Rail Canada to acquire the Acelas, and electrify the core of the Ontario / Quebec corridor?

They were built using help from the Canadian taxpayers. I suppose it would make sense for them to spend some more money on them and keep Bombardier happy.

More seriously, they are expensive to maintain and operate, is what I have heard. They will also be coming up for a very heavy overhaul by that time. So they will not be cheap and they will be two generations out of date and HEAVY! VIA might be better off getting off the shelf new equipment for a little bit more if they choose to electrify the corridor. The other thing is that the Toronto -Montreal Corridor has many stretches where top speed of something much higher than the 150-2160 mph that the Acelas are capable of would be possible. They should probably start off with 220mph capability, rather than nurse along a fleet of 160mph train sets with half expired life.

 

[neroden]

After funding the train purchase what will be left will be about $250 million. Primarily that will be used for improving maintenance facilities and other stuff to enable proper use of the equipment. I bet quite a bit will go towards constant tension catenary in Maryland and such. There will be minor crumbs left form this for actual investment in passenger side facility at stations, since there is so much that still needs to be done to even have them be able to really run at 160mph.

Of course we will know for sure only after we see a breakdown.

A Interlocking, maybe? The work which was scheduled but not done with the last round of HSR funding because the money ran out? You could spin that as being part of Moynihan Station.
More optimistically, they could execute the long-proposed scheme to put the "diagonal platform" into use. That would definitely qualify as part of Moynihan. You'd have to reconfigure A interlocking to make it useful anyway...

 

[A Voice]

Will the current Acela fleet be completely life expired by 2021? At only twenty-one years old, it seems like they would have some life in them.

Might be this another good opportunity for VIA Rail Canada to acquire the Acelas, and electrify the core of the Ontario / Quebec corridor?

Leases expire on the Acela consists (and the already sidelined HHP-8 locomotives, wrapped up in the same agreements) around that time or shortly thereafter, unless Amtrak chooses to buy out the leases. I believe the first opportunity to do that comes next month, but you're talking a few hundred million to purchase equipment you are already planning to retire (unless the buyout is cheaper than the continuing lease payments until expiration, then it makes more sense).

 

[Ziv]

So Bombardier is going to end up with 20 tired trainsets in 2021 or 2022 after Amtrak refuses to buy them out or to negotiate for a lease extension.

Would it be worth it for Bombardier to try to find a rail line with existing catenaries and come to an agreement on a 10 year lease and then re-furb the 8 or 10 best Acela trainsets? It seems like a waste to just scrap all 20 trainsets. I don't have the knowledge of what it would cost to re-build these trainsets, or what it would take to find another route for them, but to scrap them after just 20 years of service will be a rather sad denouement.

Will the current Acela fleet be completely life expired by 2021? At only twenty-one years old, it seems like they would have some life in them.

Might be this another good opportunity for VIA Rail Canada to acquire the Acelas, and electrify the core of the Ontario / Quebec corridor?

Leases expire on the Acela consists (and the already sidelined HHP-8 locomotives, wrapped up in the same agreements) around that time or shortly thereafter, unless Amtrak chooses to buy out the leases. I believe the first opportunity to do that comes next month, but you're talking a few hundred million to purchase equipment you are already planning to retire (unless the buyout is cheaper than the continuing lease payments until expiration, then it makes more sense).

 

[neroden]

So Bombardier is going to end up with 20 tired trainsets in 2021 or 2022 after Amtrak refuses to buy them out or to negotiate for a lease extension.

Would it be worth it for Bombardier to try to find a rail line with existing catenaries and come to an agreement on a 10 year lease and then re-furb the 8 or 10 best Acela trainsets? It seems like a waste to just scrap all 20 trainsets.

Nobody outside North America will touch 'em since they're overweight. Nobody in Mexico has catenary. Nobody in Canada has catenary. Almost nobody in the US outside the NEC has catenary, and the only places likely to get it in the right timeframe are commuter operations.
So there's just no chance. If Canada managed to electrify Toronto-Montreal, I could see them doing it (especially since it mails money to Bombardier), but that's been caught in development hell forever.

 

[MikefromCrete]

I can't see VIA spending millions of dollars to electrify the Toronto -Montreal corridor and then saying to its passengers and taxpayers, Oh, by the way, we're going to use 20-year-old, used equipment on this brand new corridor.

The only place in North America where the Acelas could have an after-life is Philadelphia-Harrisburg. The only other electric operations in North America are commuter lines and they sure don't want them. They're headed for the scrap yard, unless Bombardier can convert them to diesel-power and even then I don't see much interest in them.

 

[west point]

It may be that some cars can be taken from some trains and add them to other units. That would be one option. Another option would be ::: Remember that the Acella-2s may have teething problems. After what happened to the Acela-1s and SEPTA the lease might be extended on as a -1 used basis ?

 

[Andrew]

What type of track work would be done in Maryland from this RRIF Loan?

 

[jis]

AFAICT the details are unknown outside the NEC High Speed Project. But I would suspect that Constant Tension Catenary between Ragan and Prince may be high on the list since that is what is limiting the speed limit there to 135mph.

 

[Andrew]

AFAICT the details are unknown outside the NEC High Speed Project. But I would suspect that Constant Tension Catenary between Ragan and Prince may be high on the list since that is what is limiting the speed limit there to 135mph.

Thanks.

Constan Tension Catenary for all three tracks?

What is the distance in miles between Ragan and Prince Interlocking?

Also, what type of station improvements are planned at New Carrolton, Baltimore, and New York?

 

[bretton88]

I can't see VIA spending millions of dollars to electrify the Toronto -Montreal corridor and then saying to its passengers and taxpayers, Oh, by the way, we're going to use 20-year-old, used equipment on this brand new corridor.

The only place in North America where the Acelas could have an after-life is Philadelphia-Harrisburg. The only other electric operations in North America are commuter lines and they sure don't want them. They're headed for the scrap yard, unless Bombardier can convert them to diesel-power and even then I don't see much interest in them.

There have been rumors that the Acelas will become the new NE Regional equipment. I'm not sure if there's enough sets to do so, though.

 

[Ziv]

That is kind of what I thought, but it is useful to hear it from people like you and Jis and others who are a lot more knowledgeable about this sort of info. I have never ridden an Acela, but I love the way they look and the place they have in American history. Even if Amtrak kept just the 10 best trainsets and ran them at 140 mph max to differentiate them from the Acela Liberty class, maybe Amtrak could have a 2 class Acela service for 10 years or so. Ok, I am dreaming here and know it, but perhaps that would free up 4 or 6 of the new Amtrak Liberty trainsets to do non-stops from DC to NY and NY to Boston. My parents grew up during the depression and they instilled a "Never throw something away before it is fully used up!" mentality into me.

So keeping any of the Acela's is probably not realistic, but it would be cool. I liked the related HHP-8's, too. They just look like a modern locomotive should look, even nearly 20 years after they were first tested.

So Bombardier is going to end up with 20 tired trainsets in 2021 or 2022 after Amtrak refuses to buy them out or to negotiate for a lease extension.
Would it be worth it for Bombardier to try to find a rail line with existing catenaries and come to an agreement on a 10 year lease and then re-furb the 8 or 10 best Acela trainsets? It seems like a waste to just scrap all 20 trainsets.

Nobody outside North America will touch 'em since they're overweight. Nobody in Mexico has catenary. Nobody in Canada has catenary. Almost nobody in the US outside the NEC has catenary, and the only places likely to get it in the right timeframe are commuter operations.

So there's just no chance. If Canada managed to electrify Toronto-Montreal, I could see them doing it (especially since it mails money to Bombardier), but that's been caught in development hell forever.

 

[Hal]

I can't see VIA spending millions of dollars to electrify the Toronto -Montreal corridor and then saying to its passengers and taxpayers, Oh, by the way, we're going to use 20-year-old, used equipment on this brand new corridor.

The only place in North America where the Acelas could have an after-life is Philadelphia-Harrisburg. The only other electric operations in North America are commuter lines and they sure don't want them. They're headed for the scrap yard, unless Bombardier can convert them to diesel-power and even then I don't see much interest in them.

There have been rumors that the Acelas will become the new NE Regional equipment. I'm not sure if there's enough sets to do so, though.

Many of the NE Regional trains go thru to non electified territory. So I don't see Acela having a future becoming the NE Regional equipment. Plus Amtrak just bought new electric locomotives for NE Regional.

 

[neroden]

I can't see VIA spending millions of dollars to electrify the Toronto -Montreal corridor and then saying to its passengers and taxpayers, Oh, by the way, we're going to use 20-year-old, used equipment on this brand new corridor.

Canada's done stupider things for the purpose of subsidizing Bombardier. Still, pretty unlikely.

 

[jis]

There are many theoretical possibilities of repurposing the Acela sets. It would appear that economic realities would work against all of those.

For example, possibly the most obvious would be a third category of service on the NEC or an additional hourly train between New York and Washington, over and above the twice hourly Acela II (for the want of a real name), and the hourly Regional. However, it is not clear that there really is a market need that would justify the huge cost of upkeep of the Acela I sets. That is what I mean by economic realities.

 

[Hal]

That is kind of what I thought, but it is useful to hear it from people like you and Jis and others who are a lot more knowledgeable about this sort of info. I have never ridden an Acela, but I love the way they look and the place they have in American history. Even if Amtrak kept just the 10 best trainsets and ran them at 140 mph max to differentiate them from the Acela Liberty class, maybe Amtrak could have a 2 class Acela service for 10 years or so. Ok, I am dreaming here and know it, but perhaps that would free up 4 or 6 of the new Amtrak Liberty trainsets to do non-stops from DC to NY and NY to Boston. My parents grew up during the depression and they instilled a "Never throw something away before it is fully used up!" mentality into me.

So keeping any of the Acela's is probably not realistic, but it would be cool. I liked the related HHP-8's, too. They just look like a modern locomotive should look, even nearly 20 years after they were first tested.

So Amtrak should keep running them because they look cool to you? The HHP-8's were always problematic. Acela's are used up because they were running up and down the NEC constantly and not enough sets were purchased to take sets off for the maintenance they needed. I don't know what the plans are but I would expect the Acela trainsets to be scapped like the HH-8's.

 

[Hal]

There are many theoretical possibilities of repurposing the Acela sets. It would appear that economic realities would work against all of those.

I don't think they can maintain Acela II, Regional equipment and Acela I. It has taken a lot of work keeping the Acela's in service as it is. I doubt the Acela sets will be repurposed.

 

[jis]

There are many theoretical possibilities of repurposing the Acela sets. It would appear that economic realities would work against all of those.

I don't think they can maintain Acela II, Regional equipment and Acela I. I doubt the Acela sets will be repurposed.

Yes. We do agree very violently on that point I was just giving examples of why I think it is not justified by the service that needs to be provided at present or in five years.