Acela II RFP information announcement

[Ziv]

I think the main part I regret is the fact that they will be retired before they are "fully used up". Their appearance is a plus but leaving money on the table, so to speak, goes against the grain. Using the 10 or 12 best Acela trainsets for another 10-12 years would have made their purchase an even better deal. If the refurb didn't cost as much as it sounds like it will cost in the real world. What other trainsets are we going to get in the next 10 years that can do 150 mph? Even the new Liberty's only do 160, albeit with more passengers and at a lower cost to operate.

Scrapping the Acelas before their use by date is like having to buy 16 oz of sour cream, even though you only use 8 oz, because there is nothing else you want to use the sour cream with before it goes bad. But the sour cream costs $1.50. An Acela trainset cost $40Mn or more. ;-)

That is kind of what I thought, but it is useful to hear it from people like you and Jis and others who are a lot more knowledgeable about this sort of info. I have never ridden an Acela, but I love the way they look and the place they have in American history. Even if Amtrak kept just the 10 best trainsets and ran them at 140 mph max to differentiate them from the Acela Liberty class, maybe Amtrak could have a 2 class Acela service for 10 years or so. Ok, I am dreaming here and know it, but perhaps that would free up 4 or 6 of the new Amtrak Liberty trainsets to do non-stops from DC to NY and NY to Boston. My parents grew up during the depression and they instilled a "Never throw something away before it is fully used up!" mentality into me.

So keeping any of the Acela's is probably not realistic, but it would be cool. I liked the related HHP-8's, too. They just look like a modern locomotive should look, even nearly 20 years after they were first tested.

So Amtrak should keep running them because they look cool to you? The HHP-8's were always problematic. Acela's are used up because they were running up and down the NEC constantly and not enough sets were purchased to take sets off for the maintenance they needed. I don't know what the plans are but I would expect the Acela trainsets to be scapped like the HH-8's.

 

[jis]

Just to remind people, the new train sets are built capable of 300kph (186mph). They are limited to 160mph by the infrastructure. The existing Acelas can barely manage at 160 mph and they are incapable of anything above that.

It is unlikely that we will be acquiring 150mph capable HSR sets for anything in the next 15 years. They will either be 200+mph real high speed trains, or they will be run of the mill Tier I 125mph trains.

It really is a sound business decision to sideline them because once the new sets are deployed the old sets will lose the capability of earning their keep, and maintaining them will simply be throwing good money after bad. Only justification would be if an additional service could earn its keep through the overall additional ridership that it brings in, and that at present based on current projections for the remaining lifetime of these sets even after a heavy overhaul, seems unlikely. So while that will increase revenues, it will possibly have a detrimental effect on surpluses, which are required to be robust to pay off the loan. Remember that considerable additional mainteance infrastructure will need to be built to keep 28+20 = 48 sets running or even 38 sets running, all of which will cost money that is not there.

 

[frequentflyer]

I think the main part I regret is the fact that they will be retired before they are "fully used up". Their appearance is a plus but leaving money on the table, so to speak, goes against the grain. Using the 10 or 12 best Acela trainsets for another 10-12 years would have made their purchase an even better deal. If the refurb didn't cost as much as it sounds like it will cost in the real world. What other trainsets are we going to get in the next 10 years that can do 150 mph? Even the new Liberty's only do 160, albeit with more passengers and at a lower cost to operate.

Scrapping the Acelas before their use by date is like having to buy 16 oz of sour cream, even though you only use 8 oz, because there is nothing else you want to use the sour cream with before it goes bad. But the sour cream costs $1.50. An Acela trainset cost $40Mn or more. ;-)

That is kind of what I thought, but it is useful to hear it from people like you and Jis and others who are a lot more knowledgeable about this sort of info. I have never ridden an Acela, but I love the way they look and the place they have in American history. Even if Amtrak kept just the 10 best trainsets and ran them at 140 mph max to differentiate them from the Acela Liberty class, maybe Amtrak could have a 2 class Acela service for 10 years or so. Ok, I am dreaming here and know it, but perhaps that would free up 4 or 6 of the new Amtrak Liberty trainsets to do non-stops from DC to NY and NY to Boston. My parents grew up during the depression and they instilled a "Never throw something away before it is fully used up!" mentality into me.

So keeping any of the Acela's is probably not realistic, but it would be cool. I liked the related HHP-8's, too. They just look like a modern locomotive should look, even nearly 20 years after they were first tested.

So Amtrak should keep running them because they look cool to you? The HHP-8's were always problematic. Acela's are used up because they were running up and down the NEC constantly and not enough sets were purchased to take sets off for the maintenance they needed. I don't know what the plans are but I would expect the Acela trainsets to be scapped like the HH-8's.

I think you are underestimating the cost of maintaining the original Acelas. They are heavy and not as efficient as the new sets that will replace them and are one offs. Bombardier wants this nightmare to end ASAP.

Its like the Concorde, when Airbus stated it would no longer provide maintenance support it was the deathknell. Though the airframes had another 15 years at least on them. No maintenance support from Bombardier means no business case for the original Acelas, no matter how "new" they look.

 

[west point]

A highly unlikely use of -1s would be Keystone(s) to Harrisburg. If New Haven - Springfield is electrified by 2022 -2024 that could be another route. So maybe a few Acela-1s SPG <> HAR ? That would make the POLs in HAR, Hartford, & Springfield happy.

 

[keelhauled]

A highly unlikely use of -1s would be Keystone(s) to Harrisburg. If New Haven - Springfield is electrified by 2022 -2024 that could be another route. So maybe a few Acela-1s SPG <> HAR ? That would make the POLs in HAR, Hartford, & Springfield happy.

I sincerely doubt that the "POLs" would be happy about paying more to operate at best the exact same service just for the sake of slightly shinier trains.

 

[Andrew]

I wonder how long each coach will be.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

I wonder how long each coach will be.

I was gonna ask you, Andrew.

Srsly. I bet you can find something close to the answer by looking at the specs for the sister (European) trains in Alstom's newly created umbrella "Avelia" brand.

Edit: Avelia is not to be confused with Aleve, a popular painkiller among us curmudgeons. (Glad we can quickly edit our posts here. LOL.)

 

[Andrew]

And still no word on the interest rate for the $2.45 Billion RRIF Loan, and what the deferral on debt service will be.

 

[frequentflyer]

So why would Alstrom put all of their high speed rail products under the Avelia brand?

 

[leacrane]

Not a train expert, just a passenger...so

How to they get 33%more seats on a car without shortening legroom?

Are the cars longer?(what about platform length limits?)

Does the fact that the cars are articulated mean less wasted space at the ends?

Just curious. Tx

 

[jis]

They did not get 33% more seats in a car. They got 33% more seats in the train. You do that by having more cars in the train. There are more cars in the new trains than in the current ones.

 

[leacrane]

Ahh. Got it. What's the deal with only one door per car? Doesn't it slow down boarding and egress?

 

[frequentflyer]

So I guess the new trainsets will be maintained where Acela is now, and Altsom will install new jigs to service the Acela IIs. And is Alstom personell going to do the actual maintenance since there is a contract.

 

[leacrane]

Another q...what does articulating the cars do? Increase safety?

 

[jis]

Ahh. Got it. What's the deal with only one door per car? Doesn't it slow down boarding and egress?

If it is stanadrd TGV then the cars are slightly shorter than the 85 footers normally used in the US. That together with the Jacobs trucks connecting the two cars together in an articulated way gives massively more stability to the train. One consequence is that each car holds slightly fewer passengers, which together with the wider door than in today's sets make one door per car quite adequate as seen in very heavy usage in France.

So I guess the new trainsets will be maintained where Acela is now, and Altsom will install new jigs to service the Acela IIs. And is Alstom personell going to do the actual maintenance since there is a contract.

We don't know such details at present. They have not been published so far AFAICT. But afigg is certainly more knowledgeable about this than I. Maybe he has seen the details somewhere.

Another q...what does articulating the cars do? Increase safety?

Yes, and provides a smoother ride and more stable vestibules to walk between cars.

 

[mrpresident1776]

According to what Alstom shared with the media, the power cars are 18 meters or 59' long. A rough comparison from that power car length to the trainset on page gives me an estimate of 67.8' for the first passenger car and 52.5' for the second car if that visual is to scale. Visually comparing the Avelia Liberty to the AGV cars, it looks as though Avelia Liberty's are slightly different because of the number of windows, 6 for AGV and 7 for Avelia. But AGV cars are 56.76' long while standard TGV cars have 72.7' power cars, 71.7’ end cars and 61.4' intermediate cars. We won't know the exact specs for a while though...

 

[bretton88]

The best comparison for these trainsets are the tilting TGV trains that never made it out of prototype stage. Apparently alstom decided to dust off the blueprints of them and pitch it to Amtrak.

http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/p01.html

 

[jis]

According to what Alstom shared with the media, the power cars are 18 meters or 59' long. A rough comparison from that power car length to the trainset on page gives me an estimate of 67.8' for the first passenger car and 52.5' for the second car if that visual is to scale. Visually comparing the Avelia Liberty to the AGV cars, it looks as though Avelia Liberty's are slightly different because of the number of windows, 6 for AGV and 7 for Avelia. But AGV cars are 56.76' long while standard TGV cars have 72.7' power cars, 71.7’ end cars and 61.4' intermediate cars. We won't know the exact specs for a while though...

My suspicion is that they are more like standard TGV cars than like AGV cars. The suspension is quite different from the AGV cars too apparently, basically with standard Pendolino tilt system on Jacobs trucks. But we will have to wait and see what the exact details are. They appear to be derivative of the TGV Reseau like cars, so in that sense they are different from the original P-01 tilt TGV trial set which used a Sud-Est set. The front end shape OTOH resembles the AGV a bit. but that is mostly decorative shrouding and can be any shape that one chooses to make it.

 

[Fan Railer]

According to what Alstom shared with the media, the power cars are 18 meters or 59' long. A rough comparison from that power car length to the trainset on page gives me an estimate of 67.8' for the first passenger car and 52.5' for the second car if that visual is to scale. Visually comparing the Avelia Liberty to the AGV cars, it looks as though Avelia Liberty's are slightly different because of the number of windows, 6 for AGV and 7 for Avelia. But AGV cars are 56.76' long while standard TGV cars have 72.7' power cars, 71.7’ end cars and 61.4' intermediate cars. We won't know the exact specs for a while though...

I'm not quite sure where you got any power car length spec from what was in that link, but I did find some additional info in the following link:

https://www.partners.alstom.com/Assets/Information/?AssetID=67efd9c5-e84c-468f-a2b5-2469b6e86210

After going to the downloadable files tab and opening the "additional files" drop down menu, you will find the "Avelia Liberty - Amtrak - Case Study - July 2016" pdf file. Several of the specs listed:

- 212 meters (695.572 ft) for initial 9 car set + 2 power cars

- 381 seats + 8 ADA spaces for 9 car set

- Expandable to 518 passengers for 12 car set

- Traction power of 7000 kW (9380 hp)

Compared to the original Acela sets:

- 202 meters (665 ft)

- 304 seats

- 9200 kW traction power

So either it's me, or there's going to have to be some SERIOUS weight reduction to allow a trainset with LESS traction power to achieve a HIGHER top speed than the existing trainset. Afterall, overseas, almost all 200 meter trainsets capable of speeds of 300-350 km/h have at least 8000 to 8800 kW of traction power. I get the feeling that there's still a LOT of info that we're lacking.

 

[PVD]

I'm pretty sure its 9200 HP not KW for the present sets, meaning it is actually a slight increase not decrease.

 

[jis]

Acela power heads are 6000hp each for a total of 12,000hp.

 

[Acela150]

Acela power heads are 6000hp each for a total of 12,000hp.

If I had my Acela Manuel handy, which I don't... Buried in Mom's garage somewhere.. I could give you much better info on HP.. I think their's a little more then that. And I don't want to give bad info. But I remember it being in the 6,000 range per PC..

As for the one door a car... I have to think that their will be two doors at most vestibules. Simply cause one door at each will greatly slow station dwell time and cause mass confusion.

I also have to take a guess and say they may be bringing 2 FC cars to the new trains. As the current sets stand they're 6 coaches, 4 BC, 1 Cafe, and 1 FC car. I think the new number is 9? Which would mean 2 FC, 6 BC and 1 Cafe. And if this is a possible configuration That would add a small handful of extra FC seats to each train possibly making upgrades easier to acquire for those using the 12 hours Coupons as well as quite a few extra BC seats.I can't recall off hand what each TS can handle as far as PAX loads go..

 

[PVD]

12 K HP would be just under 9000kw, what you are saying makes sense. don't know what the heck I was looking at

 

[dogbert617]

I thought the RFP specified EMUs with distributed power... these certainly don't look like EMUs with distributed power...

That's really cool, love that interior and exterior design for those cars. I sure have a weird feeling they still won't go as fast, as similar trains do in other parts of the world. Since I thought I read the Genesis P42s could technically go faster than 79MPH, but that Amtrak rules only allow for them to go as fast as 79 on most lines? The few high speed portions that've been upgraded like Michigan(for the Wolverine trains) and Illinois(Lincoln Service to Saint Louis), excluded.

 

[Andrew]

According to what Alstom shared with the media, the power cars are 18 meters or 59' long. A rough comparison from that power car length to the trainset on page gives me an estimate of 67.8' for the first passenger car and 52.5' for the second car if that visual is to scale. Visually comparing the Avelia Liberty to the AGV cars, it looks as though Avelia Liberty's are slightly different because of the number of windows, 6 for AGV and 7 for Avelia. But AGV cars are 56.76' long while standard TGV cars have 72.7' power cars, 71.7’ end cars and 61.4' intermediate cars. We won't know the exact specs for a while though...

I'm not quite sure where you got any power car length spec from what was in that link, but I did find some additional info in the following link:

https://www.partners.alstom.com/Assets/Information/?AssetID=67efd9c5-e84c-468f-a2b5-2469b6e86210

After going to the downloadable files tab and opening the "additional files" drop down menu, you will find the "Avelia Liberty - Amtrak - Case Study - July 2016" pdf file. Several of the specs listed:

- 212 meters (695.572 ft) for initial 9 car set + 2 power cars

- 381 seats + 8 ADA spaces for 9 car set

- Expandable to 518 passengers for 12 car set

- Traction power of 7000 kW (9380 hp)

Compared to the original Acela sets:

- 202 meters (665 ft)

- 304 seats

- 9200 kW traction power

So either it's me, or there's going to have to be some SERIOUS weight reduction to allow a trainset with LESS traction power to achieve a HIGHER top speed than the existing trainset. Afterall, overseas, almost all 200 meter trainsets capable of speeds of 300-350 km/h have at least 8000 to 8800 kW of traction power. I get the feeling that there's still a LOT of info that we're lacking.

Where did you get the train set specifications?

So the train set measures for a total of 11 cars long, and the total length is 695 feet?

Nothing happens when I click the link.