Acela II RFP information announcement

[George K]

Are the new trains too good?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/09/06/amtrak_s_avelia_liberty_is_going_to_be_better_than_the_acela_in_every_way.html

 

[afigg]

Amtrak posted a news release that the Concourse expansion project at DC Union Station is being funded by the $2.45 billion RRIF loan. The news release provides some info on where the NEC improvement portion of the loan is going towards, but not how much nor a lot of specifics.

AMTRAK INVESTMENT PACKAGE TO ADVANCE WASHINGTON UNION STATION CONCOURSE MODERNIZATION. Excerpts:

WASHINGTON – Amtrak will use a portion of its $2.45 billion investment package in next-generation high-speed Acela Express trainsets and Northeast Corridor (NEC) infrastructure improvements to fund construction for the modernization of Washington Union Station’s passenger rail concourse and the expansion of Amtrak’s D.C.-based fleet maintenance facility.

....

The investment will fund full-phase construction of Amtrak’s Concourse Modernization Project –announced in March– a near-term comprehensive renovation of Washington Union Station’s intercity and commuter concourse that will double the concourse’s current capacity and upgrade key customer amenities including new restrooms, boarding gates, seating, and ClubAcela lounge. Design for the project, previously funded with contributions from Amtrak and the Union Station Redevelopment Corporation (USRC), is already well underway.

....

In addition to concourse improvements, funding will be used to modify Amtrak’s fleet maintenance facility in Washington, D.C. The existing two-track high-speed maintenance building in Amtrak’s Ivy City Yard will be expanded to enclose a third track, which supports the creation of highly-technical jobs for the District of Columbia as well as improve the on board and station customer experience that will accommodate the high-speed rail service levels.

,,,,,

In addition to station improvements at Washington Union Station, customers will see improvements at Moynihan Station in New York City, and New Carrollton Station and Baltimore Penn Station in Maryland, as well as track capacity and ride quality improvements to the NEC that will benefit both Acela Express riders and other Amtrak and commuter passengers.

The Acelas don't stop at New Carrollton, so what improvements are planned for NCR in the next 4-5 years and are they using the RRIF loan to pay for them?

BTW, the interest rate on the RRIF loan is 2.23% with 29 year repayment terms, according to an article in the Washington Examiner newspaper that was posted a few weeks ago. Not a bad interest rate at all.

 

[Triley]

Does it sell out? Or fill up? I know a number of people (including myself) that never pay for FC, but only use points or upgrades.

You are right. It fills up......many are there on upgrades.
Don't know what they are planning but I would be skeptical that there would be two first class cars. That would require 2 additional crew.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Not necessarily, given the way the cars are setup, they might treat 2 FC cars as a single articulated car.Just speculation.

We would need additional crew. We can barely support a sold out Club Car with 43 seats. I see no way that we could handle an additional 20 seats without at minimum another assist to run meals on the floor. Even then, we can only set up the tray so quick with the order, and I think people will still have extended wait times.

 

[neroden]

If the RRIF loan rates are that good, maybe Amtrak can get one for South of the Lake? It would be such a monumental improvement to Michigan services, the LSL, the CL, and the Cardinal, and it should be much less expensive than some of these grandiose station projects...

 

[jis]

It will be a little more challenging finding the collateral for a South of Lake loan. Not that it is impossible but just a bit more work.

Alternatively, the surplus of NE Regional revenues could be used to leverage a substantial loan for Amfleet I replacement too.

 

[neroden]

It will be a little more challenging finding the collateral for a South of Lake loan. Not that it is impossible but just a bit more work.

*Collateral* shouldn't be a problem -- it's real estate and track. I guess the problem would be proving that there was a *revenue stream* to repay it (not the same thing at all). It would be necessary to work up a business case to show that eliminating the host-railroad and congestion delays on this segment would cause massive increases in revenue. (Which, personally, I believe it would.)

 

[seat38a]

Are the new trains too good?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/09/06/amtrak_s_avelia_liberty_is_going_to_be_better_than_the_acela_in_every_way.html

I can see these bad boys in California minus the tilt, I'm guessing the way things have been going, the trains for CA will go to Siemens. Correct me if I'm wrong but, in CA they can buy off the shelf what they already use in Europe since it will be on dedicated tracks? No need for as I quote "bank vault" on wheels.

 

[seat38a]

Do you think Amtrak might rename the service, "Avelia Liberty" or "Avelia" once all the Acela's are gone? The Metroliner name disappeared once the Acela's arrived.

 

[CCC1007]

Are the new trains too good?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/09/06/amtrak_s_avelia_liberty_is_going_to_be_better_than_the_acela_in_every_way.html

I can see these bad boys in California minus the tilt, I'm guessing the way things have been going, the trains for CA will go to Siemens. Correct me if I'm wrong but, in CA they can buy off the shelf what they already use in Europe since it will be on dedicated tracks? No need for as I quote "bank vault" on wheels.

If only it were going to be a fully separated line, it will share with Caltrain in the Bay Area, and metrolink in the la basin, if plans haven't changed.

 

[Acela150]

Do you think Amtrak might rename the service, "Avelia Liberty" or "Avelia" once all the Acela's are gone? The Metroliner name disappeared once the Acela's arrived.

No. Reason being simple. Under Warrington every train had a Title of Acela. With the Current Regional trains being Acela Regional and Keystone and Clockers were going to be Acela Commuter. Which drastically backfired. So if they changed the name of the service. It would cause confusion. Also Amtrak owns the name Acela so that adds incentive.
Edit Add info: The Metroliner name is still owned by Amtrak and is on Conference Car 9800. Matter of fact if you look at the super fine print of a National TT it shows they own the title.

 

[jis]

Are the new trains too good?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/09/06/amtrak_s_avelia_liberty_is_going_to_be_better_than_the_acela_in_every_way.html

I can see these bad boys in California minus the tilt, I'm guessing the way things have been going, the trains for CA will go to Siemens. Correct me if I'm wrong but, in CA they can buy off the shelf what they already use in Europe since it will be on dedicated tracks? No need for as I quote "bank vault" on wheels.

If only it were going to be a fully separated line, it will share with Caltrain in the Bay Area, and metrolink in the la basin, if plans haven't changed.

Actually, last I heard the Tier 3 Avelias will require a specific waiver to operate mixed with Tier 2 Acelas at above 125mph too, and they have been working on the specifics of that. This was in a presentation by the Amtrak person in charge of the safety case for the higher speed operations on the NEC. I am am almost certain that the California sets will be Tier 3 just like the Avelias and that would make them able to operate intermixed with Tier 1 at below 125mph without any further waiver. OTOH, the EMUs that Caltrain is getting have a waiver to operate intermixed with Tier 1 because they are not fully Tier 1 compliant. They already have the waiver from FRA.

Do you think Amtrak might rename the service, "Avelia Liberty" or "Avelia" once all the Acela's are gone? The Metroliner name disappeared once the Acela's arrived.

No. Reason being simple. Under Warrington every train had a Title of Acela. With the Current Regional trains being Acela Regional and Keystone and Clockers were going to be Acela Commuter. Which drastically backfired. So if they changed the name of the service. It would cause confusion. Also Amtrak owns the name Acela so that adds incentive.
Edit Add info: The Metroliner name is still owned by Amtrak and is on Conference Car 9800. Matter of fact if you look at the super fine print of a National TT it shows they own the title.

To be more precise, the Metroliner moniker is a registered trade mark of Amtrak for use in the context of train service (at least). I don't know how wide the applicability is beyond that. The reason that I say that is that even the moniker Adirondack is an Amtrak registered trade mark.Clearly the use of that term beyond the context of train service is not restricted by said trade mark. New York state for example, does not need Amtrak's permission to call their state park by that name and I am sure no one has forced Adirondack Trailways to change their name either. It is likely that if someone names their cafe "Metroliner Cafe" in Miami they won't run afoul of anything.

Microsoft at one time tried to trade mark "Window" and was denied. Trade Mark and Copyrights are an interesting morass in and of themselves.

 

[afigg]

Do you think Amtrak might rename the service, "Avelia Liberty" or "Avelia" once all the Acela's are gone? The Metroliner name disappeared once the Acela's arrived.

No. The Acela brand name has become widely known and an established short hand for the higher class service on the NEC. The phrase Acela Corridor and even Acela Primaries were used in the press this past Spring during the primaries for the states of the NEC.

For proof, check out the new website Amtrak has to plug the new trainsets and the passenger improvements coming to the NEC stations: https://futureofrail.amtrak.com/. Near the top of the webpage it says "ALL-NEW ACELA FLEETS ARRIVING IN 2021". Avelia Liberty is Alstom's name for the rolling stock, Acela will remain Amtrak's name for the service.

 

[MattW]

Is Tier-3/Tier-1 separation treated with the same stringency as non-compliant (transit)/national network separation? In other words, how does the FRA require the agencies to ensure a piece of Tier-1 equipment will not wander onto a Tier-3 (dedicated HSR) line? I guess things are still pretty in flux right now given there's no Tier-3 operation, and even the NEC won't be that way, but I'm curious of the level of rigor in ensuring separation.

 

[jis]

Tier 1 and Tier 3 don't have to be separated when both trains are operating at or below 125mph. Tier 1 does not operate above 125mph. The issue is with Tier 2 - Tier 3 separation above 125mph, and that is where a waiver will be needed on the NEC.

On a PTC equipped system which anything like ACSES or any run of the mill ERTMS system that is easy to enforce. You just set the speed limit at 0 for the class(es) of train that is Tier 1 and enforce a stop at the boundary entry point to the Tier 3 only territory.

However, on the NEC there will also be mixing of Tier 1 and Tier 3 operation where a Tier 1 train may be operating at upto 125mph and a Tier 3 may be operating above 125mph. That would also be part of the waiver which requires a special safety case covering those specific pieces of equipment on specific route segments. At least that is what I understood from that loooong and detailed presentation I sat through couple of years back.

The EMUs that Caltrain is ordering supposedly required a waiver because they are not fully Tier 1 compliant. However, I don;t know much detail about it since I have never sat through an equivalent presentation on the Peninsula route situation.

 

[CraigDK]

...

AMTRAK INVESTMENT PACKAGE TO ADVANCE WASHINGTON UNION STATION CONCOURSE MODERNIZATION. Excerpts:

In addition to station improvements at Washington Union Station, customers will see improvements at Moynihan Station in New York City, and New Carrollton Station and Baltimore Penn Station in Maryland, as well as track capacity and ride quality improvements to the NEC that will benefit both Acela Express riders and other Amtrak and commuter passengers.

The Acelas don't stop at New Carrollton, so what improvements are planned for NCR in the next 4-5 years and are they using the RRIF loan to pay for them?

BTW, the interest rate on the RRIF loan is 2.23% with 29 year repayment terms, according to an article in the Washington Examiner newspaper that was posted a few weeks ago. Not a bad interest rate at all.

I've went looking again at some of the previously published documents on the NEC. My best guess would either be track-work in the vicinity of New Carrollton (An additional track and/or re-configuring the nearby interlockings and/or constant tension catenary) or someone confused New Carrollton with BWI.

But at this point, who knows. :huh:

 

[Anderson]

It's also "always possible" that Amtrak could add NCR to a stray Acela as a fig leaf (basically chewing up the time savings on a thinly-used Sat/Sun train or an off-off hour train). Not likely, I know, but hardly the most creative shenanigan Amtrak would ever have pulled...

 

[Acela150]

In the first few years of service a weekend Acela or two would stop at NCR.

 

[Thirdrail7]

...

AMTRAK INVESTMENT PACKAGE TO ADVANCE WASHINGTON UNION STATION CONCOURSE MODERNIZATION. Excerpts:

In addition to station improvements at Washington Union Station, customers will see improvements at Moynihan Station in New York City, and New Carrollton Station and Baltimore Penn Station in Maryland, as well as track capacity and ride quality improvements to the NEC that will benefit both Acela Express riders and other Amtrak and commuter passengers.

The Acelas don't stop at New Carrollton, so what improvements are planned for NCR in the next 4-5 years and are they using the RRIF loan to pay for them?

BTW, the interest rate on the RRIF loan is 2.23% with 29 year repayment terms, according to an article in the Washington Examiner newspaper that was posted a few weeks ago. Not a bad interest rate at all.

I've went looking again at some of the previously published documents on the NEC. My best guess would either be track-work in the vicinity of New Carrollton (An additional track and/or re-configuring the nearby interlockings and/or constant tension catenary) or someone confused New Carrollton with BWI.

But at this point, who knows. :huh:

NCR represents a major bottleneck in the area. It has two through tracks that utilize the platforms while the third track only takes you to Anacostia Line. This makes for congestion when it comes to MARC and Amtrak trains making the stop with a train that bypasses the station in the area.

When they built NCR station, someone was smart enough to basically dig out the area needed in case someone wanted to add another platform in the future. The plan is close Landover Interlocking to the south and move it north. The new interlocking (which had a working name of Hansen) would have universal, high speed crossings. That is instrumental since now a train can leave WAS, use a high speed crossover to access 1 track south of NCR station instead of waiting for the train to trudge along at 45mph from Landover to NCR, make a station stop and then crossover out of the path of the express.

In the first few years of service a weekend Acela or two would stop at NCR.

Many of them stopped at NCR.

 

[Andrew]

...

AMTRAK INVESTMENT PACKAGE TO ADVANCE WASHINGTON UNION STATION CONCOURSE MODERNIZATION. Excerpts:

In addition to station improvements at Washington Union Station, customers will see improvements at Moynihan Station in New York City, and New Carrollton Station and Baltimore Penn Station in Maryland, as well as track capacity and ride quality improvements to the NEC that will benefit both Acela Express riders and other Amtrak and commuter passengers.

The Acelas don't stop at New Carrollton, so what improvements are planned for NCR in the next 4-5 years and are they using the RRIF loan to pay for them?

BTW, the interest rate on the RRIF loan is 2.23% with 29 year repayment terms, according to an article in the Washington Examiner newspaper that was posted a few weeks ago. Not a bad interest rate at all.

I've went looking again at some of the previously published documents on the NEC. My best guess would either be track-work in the vicinity of New Carrollton (An additional track and/or re-configuring the nearby interlockings and/or constant tension catenary) or someone confused New Carrollton with BWI.

But at this point, who knows. :huh:

NCR represents a major bottleneck in the area. It has two through tracks that utilize the platforms while the third track only takes you to Anacostia Line. This makes for congestion when it comes to MARC and Amtrak trains making the stop with a train that bypasses the station in the area.

When they built NCR station, someone was smart enough to basically dig out the area needed in case someone wanted to add another platform in the future. The plan is close Landover Interlocking to the south and move it north. The new interlocking (which had a working name of Hansen) would have universal, high speed crossings. That is instrumental since now a train can leave WAS, use a high speed crossover to access 1 track south of NCR station instead of waiting for the train to trudge along at 45mph from Landover to NCR, make a station stop and then crossover out of the path of the express.

In the first few years of service a weekend Acela or two would stop at NCR.

Many of them stopped at NCR.

Where did you get the interest rate information?

 

[CraigDK]

NCR represents a major bottleneck in the area. It has two through tracks that utilize the platforms while the third track only takes you to Anacostia Line. This makes for congestion when it comes to MARC and Amtrak trains making the stop with a train that bypasses the station in the area.

When they built NCR station, someone was smart enough to basically dig out the area needed in case someone wanted to add another platform in the future. The plan is close Landover Interlocking to the south and move it north. The new interlocking (which had a working name of Hansen) would have universal, high speed crossings. That is instrumental since now a train can leave WAS, use a high speed crossover to access 1 track south of NCR station instead of waiting for the train to trudge along at 45mph from Landover to NCR, make a station stop and then crossover out of the path of the express.

I had not looked that closely at the track configuration in the area. That sounds like a good project, I would assume that might be worth at least a few minutes in time saved for those trains that won't stop there, as well as better reliability and on time performance with the removal of the bottleneck for every train that passes through.

Of all the work that is being planned in conjunction with the Acela II procurement, this seems like it might be the simplest and quickest one to do. Hopefully with the loan now secured, it won't be too long before work begins.

 

[railiner]

[quote name="jis" post="682210" timestamp="1475067768

To be more precise, the Metroliner moniker is a registered trade mark of Amtrak for use in the context of train service (at least). I don't know how wide the applicability is beyond that. The reason that I say that is that even the moniker Adirondack is an Amtrak registered trade mark.Clearly the use of that term beyond the context of train service is not restricted by said trade mark. New York state for example, does not need Amtrak's permission to call their state park by that name and I am sure no one has forced Adirondack Trailways to change their name either. It is likely that if someone names their cafe "Metroliner Cafe" in Miami they won't run afoul of anything.

.

Adirondack Trailways has been around for 4 decades longer than Amtrak...

Another user of the "Metroliner" moniker was Fairchild-Swearingen, for their 19 passenger regional airliner...

 

[Fan Railer]

Bringing back the power rating discussion, a more recent publication seems to have had the number amended to a more realistic value (9280 kW, which is similar to the current Acela trainset):

http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transport/Resources/Documents/brochure2014/Avelia%20Liberty%20-%20Amtrak%20-%20Case%20study%20-%20English.pdf?epslanguage=en-GB

 

[CraigDK]

I guess someone copied a wrong number somewhere earlier...

I would have to assume that Alstom is fairly far along in the design process. Does anyone have an idea on the average time that Alstom needs to construct a complete trainset (TGV, AGV, or Pendilo)?

 

[Fan Railer]

Emperor Cuomo is making a speech (live now) @ Alstom's plant in Hornell celebrating their win of the Acela II contract. Look for a news release in a little bit, I guess.

 

[CraigDK]

Emperor Cuomo is making a speech (live now) @ Alstom's plant in Hornell celebrating their win of the Acela II contract. Look for a news release in a little bit, I guess.

Seems like a strange date to celebrate it. :huh:

I imagine that they have only just begun to make any changes to the plant to begin tooling up for production. Maybe that is why they are celebrating (the start of that process)...

Does anyone know what Alstom plant in France is building the two prototypes?