The main problem is the maintenance facilities not the platforms. The facilities are built for the current Acela length and expanding the buildings is problematic at their locations.
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Acela II RFP information announcement
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Acela150
Super Buff
Is it possible for the HST maintenance facilities to handle a 7 car set? Maybe 8?
Also I'm sure it was brought up but I've missed it if it was. How many TS will be ordered?
Also I'm sure it was brought up but I've missed it if it was. How many TS will be ordered?
Ryan
Court Jester
Nope. The axle to axle length was specified for as long as they could possible be.
Somewhere around here (maybe even in this thread!) I posted an overhead shot of the shop in Boston that shows the difficulty one would experience in trying to lengthen it. It's pretty wedged in there.
Somewhere around here (maybe even in this thread!) I posted an overhead shot of the shop in Boston that shows the difficulty one would experience in trying to lengthen it. It's pretty wedged in there.
Fan Railer
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28 train sets in the base order. They're looking to expand the HST fleet to 46 train sets if they can get the funding (this is coming from the outdated NEC vision report from 2012; http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/453/325/Amtrak-Vision-for-the-Northeast-Corridor.pdf)by 2040.
I'm sure Amtrak considered train-sets around 800 or so feet.
Then maybe maintenance facilities in different sections of yards could have been built?
Stations where the Acela Express stops, such as Philadelphia and New York Penn Station, can definitely platform trains that are longer than 800 feet--which is a fact.
Next generation train sets are expected to be lighter--which means that they can accelerate quicker out of busy stations such as Newark Penn Station.
Lolz, I bet by 2025 or 2027, Amtrak regrets not ordering train sets with a larger seating capacity! The next generation train sets are supposed to be around 200 meters--which is about 656 feet. Well, adding two 85 foot coaches would get a train-set to a little longer than 800 feet. Plus, for people worried about longer deboarding times, New York's Penn Station is getting an extension of the West-end Concourse to Amtrak's platforms, which should speed up exit times, and in Philadelphia, people simply just go down the escalator (or stairs) to wait for the Acela train to come in like 10 minutes before it's scheduled arrival.
With newer, quieter, better, faster--and safer--train-sets, Amtrak could have easily borrowed a little bit of more money with the expectation that future Acela Express trains would see very healthy ridership growth. More train-sets= more revenue for Amtrak, more jobs in the Northeast, and a smaller carbon footprint for travelers! Ridership will increase as more young folks end up taking the train, and if more and more people use Amtrak during busy travel times, such as the week of Thanksgiving and if the USA does end up getting the 2022 or 2026 FIFA World Cup.
From Amtrak's five year plan in February: http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/133/704/FY15-Budget-Business-Plan-FY16-Budget-Justification-FY-15-19-Five-Year-Financial-Plan.pdf Page 82:
[SIZE=11pt]Amtrak has cut its outstanding indebtedness over the past seven years from $3.3 billion to $1.3 billion as of September 30, 2014, a decline of 61%. Debt reduction was accomplished by a variety of means, including (i) exercise of lease early buyout options; (ii) negotiated early terminations of leases and loans; and (iii) scheduled principal amortization.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The current debt level of $1.3 billion outstanding will be the lowest point at which Amtrak will stand over the next decade. The above debt schedule does not include debt for procurement of Next Generation High-Speed Trainsets. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Purchase of 28 NextGen Trainsets and related investments by Amtrak will require new debt to be incurred. This new debt, expected to amount to approximately $2.7 billion in total, will be sourced via the FRA’s RRIF loan program, and will permit a six-year deferral of repayment during the construction period and a twenty-five year mortgage-style repayment period. [/SIZE]
and page 152:
Next-Generation High-Speed Rail Programs
[SIZE=11pt]Delivering the next generation of high-speed rail service to the Northeast Corridor over the coming decades pursuant to Amtrak’s [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]NEC Vision [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]plan (described in the discussion of the Infrastructure and Corporate Development business line) will involve construction of dedicated tracks and stations for the length of the corridor. The long-term commitment and investment necessary to complete these initiatives is outside of the scope of the annual appropriations process and the associated five year financial plan; rather, funding these initiatives will require separate and distinct financing from Governmental and/or private sources. For this reason no financial estimates are included with this document.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Over the next five years, the focus will be on the commencement of two important cornerstones of the high-speed rail strategy: the Gateway Program and the acquisition of Next Generation High- Speed Trainsets. These projects are described in the discussions of the Infrastructure and Corporate Development business line and the Fleet Strategy, respectively. [/SIZE]
Then maybe maintenance facilities in different sections of yards could have been built?
Stations where the Acela Express stops, such as Philadelphia and New York Penn Station, can definitely platform trains that are longer than 800 feet--which is a fact.
Next generation train sets are expected to be lighter--which means that they can accelerate quicker out of busy stations such as Newark Penn Station.
Lolz, I bet by 2025 or 2027, Amtrak regrets not ordering train sets with a larger seating capacity! The next generation train sets are supposed to be around 200 meters--which is about 656 feet. Well, adding two 85 foot coaches would get a train-set to a little longer than 800 feet. Plus, for people worried about longer deboarding times, New York's Penn Station is getting an extension of the West-end Concourse to Amtrak's platforms, which should speed up exit times, and in Philadelphia, people simply just go down the escalator (or stairs) to wait for the Acela train to come in like 10 minutes before it's scheduled arrival.
With newer, quieter, better, faster--and safer--train-sets, Amtrak could have easily borrowed a little bit of more money with the expectation that future Acela Express trains would see very healthy ridership growth. More train-sets= more revenue for Amtrak, more jobs in the Northeast, and a smaller carbon footprint for travelers! Ridership will increase as more young folks end up taking the train, and if more and more people use Amtrak during busy travel times, such as the week of Thanksgiving and if the USA does end up getting the 2022 or 2026 FIFA World Cup.
From Amtrak's five year plan in February: http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/133/704/FY15-Budget-Business-Plan-FY16-Budget-Justification-FY-15-19-Five-Year-Financial-Plan.pdf Page 82:
[SIZE=11pt]Amtrak has cut its outstanding indebtedness over the past seven years from $3.3 billion to $1.3 billion as of September 30, 2014, a decline of 61%. Debt reduction was accomplished by a variety of means, including (i) exercise of lease early buyout options; (ii) negotiated early terminations of leases and loans; and (iii) scheduled principal amortization.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The current debt level of $1.3 billion outstanding will be the lowest point at which Amtrak will stand over the next decade. The above debt schedule does not include debt for procurement of Next Generation High-Speed Trainsets. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Purchase of 28 NextGen Trainsets and related investments by Amtrak will require new debt to be incurred. This new debt, expected to amount to approximately $2.7 billion in total, will be sourced via the FRA’s RRIF loan program, and will permit a six-year deferral of repayment during the construction period and a twenty-five year mortgage-style repayment period. [/SIZE]
and page 152:
Next-Generation High-Speed Rail Programs
[SIZE=11pt]Delivering the next generation of high-speed rail service to the Northeast Corridor over the coming decades pursuant to Amtrak’s [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]NEC Vision [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]plan (described in the discussion of the Infrastructure and Corporate Development business line) will involve construction of dedicated tracks and stations for the length of the corridor. The long-term commitment and investment necessary to complete these initiatives is outside of the scope of the annual appropriations process and the associated five year financial plan; rather, funding these initiatives will require separate and distinct financing from Governmental and/or private sources. For this reason no financial estimates are included with this document.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Over the next five years, the focus will be on the commencement of two important cornerstones of the high-speed rail strategy: the Gateway Program and the acquisition of Next Generation High- Speed Trainsets. These projects are described in the discussions of the Infrastructure and Corporate Development business line and the Fleet Strategy, respectively. [/SIZE]
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Thirdrail7
Engineer
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There are plans to modify all facilities to accommodate the longer trains. They are quite impressive. I hope the plans are funded as part of the procurement.
They've all handled 8 cars Acela sets. Indeed, in OCT 2011, they ran a 9 car Acela test train. The problem is even if WTC and NYT could support those lengths, Boston can't particularly in the winter.
That being said, I'm still little surprised at Alstom being selected, particularly when you consider this:
Amtrak IG's finds big money hole with supplier.
It takes two to tango. I'd venture to say the politics behind this decision are intense.
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west point
Engineer
Other posters probably have the correct idea. Limiting the new -2s seems counter productive. Granted the servicing facility size at BOS is a major problem It may be another facility that is longer will be needed in BOS. That facility would not only be for a stretched -2s but also longer regionals When BOS platforms are lengthened all trains there will be able to be longer.
Several solutions may be possible. The new -2s may be modified EMUs with CAT power pickup at each end. Maybe some train sets can be longer for exclusive use NYP - WASH. It may be two trains sets could be connected together such as TGVs are. Only problem no pass thru between the two sets
Several solutions may be possible. The new -2s may be modified EMUs with CAT power pickup at each end. Maybe some train sets can be longer for exclusive use NYP - WASH. It may be two trains sets could be connected together such as TGVs are. Only problem no pass thru between the two sets
Fan Railer
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Thirdrail7
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Well, that was fast. It looks like Dutchrailnut was correct all along.
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No, Amtrak can't do that. Platform length is an issue for trainsets longer than 9 cars. The high level platforms at DC Union station are all 9 cars long. I think BOS has high level platforms that are only 9 cars long as well. There are stations on the NEC with 10 car long platforms. A 16 car long double HSR trainset is not a viable option for the NEC. Double stops would kill trip times. The goal for the NEC appears to be be to have 12 car long high level platforms as the baseline configuration, but it will take decades to get there, if it can ever be achieved.
The Acela is 6 coach cars plus power cars on both ends. The earlier plan of inserting 2 coach car would have fit at WAS because the consist would be 1 power car off the end of the platform, 8 coach cars, 1 power car at the end of the platform and track.
CA HSR was looking for HSR trainsets which could be coupled as their spec calls for 400 meter long platforms. When the full system is built, they could have a double trainset depart LA Union Station that would split in the northern end of the valley, with 1 trainset headed for SF and the other for Sacramento. But that is the advantage of building a modern HSR from scratch.
Wow, just wow. I figured with Schumer making the announcement that he had cleared it with Amtrak and Amtrak was letting him take the lead for political reasons. Someone at Amtrak should have thrown themselves in front of Schumer to stop him on Monday if they knew he was going to do this. There is no upside for Amtrak in allowing Senator Schumer to be embarrassed if Amtrak selects the other bidder. Someone on Schumer's staff or at Amtrak may have to take the fall for his announcement if Amtrak doesn't go with Alstom in December.
But this begs the question, who is the other remaining qualified bidder? Will this info leak? Inquiring minds want to know.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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Schumer? embarrassed? That would be the day! With friends like Schumer, who needs any enemies? It is entirely possible that this is Schumer way of politically interfering in what should be a business decision, to make it the way he wants it. And we wonder why Amtrak is a mess? Seriously it is this sort of thing that causes many people, who otherwise like passenger rail, want to see Amtrak simply go away and be replaced by something else.
Fan Railer
OBS Chief
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I'd put my money on the remaining qualified bidder being Siemens. I mean with Bombardier clearly out of the running, who else would there be? Some Chinese firm? Kawasaki?Wow, just wow. I figured with Schumer making the announcement that he had cleared it with Amtrak and Amtrak was letting him take the lead for political reasons. Someone at Amtrak should have thrown themselves in front of Schumer to stop him on Monday if they knew he was going to do this. There is no upside for Amtrak in allowing Senator Schumer to be embarrassed if Amtrak selects the other bidder. Someone on Schumer's staff or at Amtrak may have to take the fall for his announcement if Amtrak doesn't go with Alstom in December.
But this begs the question, who is the other remaining qualified bidder? Will this info leak? Inquiring minds want to know.
Unless "politics" forces it to go to some outfit that has never built Rail Cars before!
Based on a True Story repeated many times in Washington and various State Capitols!
Based on a True Story repeated many times in Washington and various State Capitols!
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PerRock
Engineer
Nippon Shayro (Shinkansen), CAF (Oaris), CRRC, Hyundai Rotem; they all have HSR trains in some sort of development stage & have a footing here in the U.S.. Although if I were a betting man, my money would be on Siemens being the other bidder.
peter
PS, there is a very slim chance that an MPI, GE, or EMD put in a bid, but I highly doubt it.
peter
PS, there is a very slim chance that an MPI, GE, or EMD put in a bid, but I highly doubt it.
I'd bet that the other firm is Kawasaki since Siemens already got the electric locomotive contract.I'd put my money on the remaining qualified bidder being Siemens. I mean with Bombardier clearly out of the running, who else would there be? Some Chinese firm? Kawasaki?Wow, just wow. I figured with Schumer making the announcement that he had cleared it with Amtrak and Amtrak was letting him take the lead for political reasons. Someone at Amtrak should have thrown themselves in front of Schumer to stop him on Monday if they knew he was going to do this. There is no upside for Amtrak in allowing Senator Schumer to be embarrassed if Amtrak selects the other bidder. Someone on Schumer's staff or at Amtrak may have to take the fall for his announcement if Amtrak doesn't go with Alstom in December.
But this begs the question, who is the other remaining qualified bidder? Will this info leak? Inquiring minds want to know.
By (potentially) having Kawasaki manufacture the new train-sets, Amtrak's new fleet would be manufactured in California (Siemens), Illinois (Nippon Sharyo) and New York State (either by Kawasaki or Alstom).
leemell
Conductor
Unless MPI, GE or EMD have an existing HSR trainset design in revenue service that has been overlooked, they would not have put in a bid. From the joint Amtrak-CSHRA specification document requirement for "service-proven" trainsets and components: "Refers to Trainset Standard Platform in use in commercial high speed passenger service at least 257.5 km/h (160 mph) for a minimum of two years." I doubt that Amtrak would have dropped that requirement when they re-issued the bid for Amtrak only.
So, unless a bidder can persuade Amtrak to waive the requirement and gamble on a new unproven HSR trainset, the bids should have been for trainsets based on types currently in revenue service. Within some constraint on how much modification is acceptable to Amtrak and the technical reviewers scoring the bids. Hopefully, after the winner is selected, one of the railroad industry trade press magazine or sites will provide information (or leak) who submitted bids and a summary of what trainset types they submitted.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
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It is not like this was open to all comers. In the first round I believe something like 6 or so we're prequalified. We know Bombardier was not one of them of their own choice. There is zero chance that GE or EMD or MPI were included. They simply are not competent in HSR. What has happened is short listing to two. And Mr. Megaphone apparently deliberately or otherwise chose to jump the gun and announce his own selection based on nothing. Typical political content free hot air about how much he has worked with Alstom. Even Alstom was truly embarrassed with this enormous faux pas, which places them in a difficult situation. It will be interesting to see how much damage he has caused the selection process, and whether he has managed to set things back by several years. Sigh...
StriderGDM
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There's another possibility: Someone setup Schumer to make him look bad.
This is NYS after all.
In my opinion, Amtrak could have gone with a slightly longer train-set (9 units instead of an expected 8), and lengthened the platforms in Washington, D.C. as well as realigned the switches there. I really do bet that Amtrak Acela ridership will only continue to grow, and longer train-sets will help with the mobility of the Northeast Corridor.
Also, perhaps Alstom really did get the contract after all:
http://www.eveningtribune.com/article/20150924/NEWS/150929879
Also, perhaps Alstom really did get the contract after all:
http://www.eveningtribune.com/article/20150924/NEWS/150929879
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Andrew, lengthening the high level platforms on the upper level at DC Union Station is not a simple item. Can only be done after the parking garage over the track is removed AFAIK. Which is part of the ambitious mulit-decade long plan for a major rebuild of the track and platform end of DC Union Station. Until WAS and BOS are rebuilt, and for that matter, the Acela maintenance facilities at those 2 stations are lengthened, the length constraints for new HSR trainsets are an issue.
As for the article you linked to, boy, what sort of political games was Schumer playing on Monday with his announcement? I think we can venture that who ever the other remaining bidder is, they don't have a manufacturing plant in NY state.
Andrew, lengthening the high level platforms on the upper level at DC Union Station is not a simple item. Can only be done after the parking garage over the track is removed AFAIK. Which is part of the ambitious mulit-decade long plan for a major rebuild of the track and platform end of DC Union Station. Until WAS and BOS are rebuilt, and for that matter, the Acela maintenance facilities at those 2 stations are lengthened, the length constraints for new HSR trainsets are an issue.
As for the article you linked to, boy, what sort of political games was Schumer playing on Monday with his announcement? I think we can venture that who ever the other remaining bidder is, they don't have a manufacturing plant in NY state.
Which makes it probably Siemens?
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