Acela II RFP information announcement

[OBS]

Oh no, the questions have started again....

 

[afigg]

Are the new train-sets supposed to be lighter than the current ones?

Also, although Amtrak plans on ordering 28 train-sets, what will be the increase in frequency runs between New York City and Washington DC?

Andrew, the answer to both of your questions is available in earlier posts in this thread. Well, to the extent that anyone here knows. The short direct answers to your questions are: 1) yes, if Amtrak buys off the shelf EMU trainsets (or close to off the shelf), the new trainsets will be significantly lighter than the Acelas. 2) The stated plan is to add Acela class trains for 1/2 hour service frequencies during evening and morning peak rush hours between WAS and NYP.

 

[Andrew]

Are the new train-sets supposed to be lighter than the current ones?

Also, although Amtrak plans on ordering 28 train-sets, what will be the increase in frequency runs between New York City and Washington DC?

Andrew, the answer to both of your questions is available in earlier posts in this thread. Well, to the extent that anyone here knows. The short direct answers to your questions are: 1) yes, if Amtrak buys off the shelf EMU trainsets (or close to off the shelf), the new trainsets will be significantly lighter than the Acelas. 2) The stated plan is to add Acela class trains for 1/2 hour service frequencies during evening and morning peak rush hours between WAS and NYP.

It would be cool if Amtrak could have the new, higher capacity Acela's in revenue service for this Thanksgiving holiday!

They could provide more revenue for Amtrak while also meeting the travel demands of the Northeast Corridor!

 

[Andrew]

Will the new Acela train-sets have outward facing cameras?

 

[afigg]

Will the new Acela train-sets have outward facing cameras?

Yes. It will certainly have forward looking cameras to record any incidents or collisions. The 2014 joint Amtrak-CHSRA RFP specification could be summarized as asking for cameras all over the frigging place - interior ones to monitor passengers and exterior ones to monitor boarding platforms and the front of the trainset.

Edited for clarity on what I meant by joint specification.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Will the new Acela train-sets have outward facing cameras?

Yes. It will certainly have forward looking cameras to record any incidents or collisions. The 2014 joint specification could be summarized as asking for cameras all over the frigging place - interior ones to monitor passengers and exterior ones to monitor boarding platforms and the front of the trainset.

The existing sets have outward facing cameras. Why wouldn't the new ones?

Hey Afigg! I'm starting to detect a pattern to these questions and I'm getting an uneasy feeling.

Does the name Thomas seem familiar? h34r: :help:

 

[afigg]

Hey Afigg! I'm starting to detect a pattern to these questions and I'm getting an uneasy feeling.

Does the name Thomas seem familiar? h34r: :help:

I thought the Thomas connection would have been obvious. Same type of questions....

 

[Andrew]

Apparently, the RRIF loan for the new Acela's will also get used to fund Washington Union Station Improvements as well.

 

[afigg]

In the Trains Magazine updated report on Boardman's retirement announcement: UPDATE: BOARDMAN TO RETIRE, Boardman had this to say about the HSR trainset order:

Regarding acquisition of high-speed trainsets for the Northeast Corridor, Boardman said, “I don’t expect to be here when they get here, but I want to make sure they get ordered and that gets done before I leave.” He said that Amtrak doesn’t have, “a final figure from the vendor and we don’t yet have approval on a Railroad Rehabilitation and Improvement Financing loan but we are doing all the due diligence that we are supposed to do to make that happen.”

He said that he hopes to announce details on NEC trainsets within the next three months.

So the bureaucratic issues with the FRA and getting the approval for the RRIF loan that are dragging out completing the contract award. The long term interest rates on the US Treasury notes, which set the RRIF loan rates, are likely to creep up over the next several years, so dragging out the contract award process is going to increase the total cost of the RRIF loan.

 

[Thirdrail7]

In the Trains Magazine updated report on Boardman's retirement announcement: UPDATE: BOARDMAN TO RETIRE, Boardman had this to say about the HSR trainset order:

Regarding acquisition of high-speed trainsets for the Northeast Corridor, Boardman said, “I don’t expect to be here when they get here, but I want to make sure they get ordered and that gets done before I leave.” He said that Amtrak doesn’t have, “a final figure from the vendor and we don’t yet have approval on a Railroad Rehabilitation and Improvement Financing loan but we are doing all the due diligence that we are supposed to do to make that happen.”

He said that he hopes to announce details on NEC trainsets within the next three months.

So the bureaucratic issues with the FRA and getting the approval for the RRIF loan that are dragging out completing the contract award. The long term interest rates on the US Treasury notes, which set the RRIF loan rates, are likely to creep up over the next several years, so dragging out the contract award process is going to increase the total cost of the RRIF loan.

Afigg,

what happens if the loan is not approved? Has that ever happened?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

In Trains Magazine … : UPDATE: BOARDMAN TO RETIRE, Boardman had this to say about the HSR trainset order:

Regarding acquisition of high-speed train sets ... Boardman said … that Amtrak doesn’t have, “a final figure from the vendor and we don’t yet have approval on a Railroad Rehabilitation and Improvement Financing loan but we are doing all the due diligence that we are supposed to do to make that happen.”

He said that he hopes to announce details on NEC trainsets within the next three months.

So the bureaucratic issues with the FRA and getting the approval for the RRIF loan that are dragging out completing the contract award. ...

Afigg, what happens if the loan is not approved? Has that ever happened?

Who does the approvals? The decisions in a democracy are supposed to be made by elected officials and their appointees. If the electeds don't approve of the decisions of the appointees, we get new appointees. Of course, there are simply rules n regulations requiring so many boxes in a long list get check marks. But the loan will be approved.

But I'm wondering, if the RIFF loan can cover a bundle of things like Acelas and work on Washington Union Station, can't it also include $200 million to cover the badly needed option order for the rest of the Viewliners? The cars that would come -- more sleepers n bag dorms -- will produce good revenue. The already-paid-for baggage cars couldn't show any such to pay off a loan. Diners can't either. But sleepers should be bankable.

Of course, in that case, maybe Amtrak is waiting for the haters to adjourn for Xmas holidays or actually pass a funding bill or sumpin. LOL. We may wait at least another three months to see this play out.

 

[jis]

I am almost certain that the same single loan will not cover both Acela IIs and Washington Union Station. That is just Andrew dreamin'.

 

[Bob Dylan]

With it looking certain that the Fed is fixing to raise interest rates, this would be an excellent time for Amtrak to lock in a low interest rate for loans so they should borrow all they can including picking up the option for more Viewliner II Sleeping Cars and Viewliner Coaches as well as for much needed Diesel Locomotives!

 

[Paulus]

I am almost certain that the same single loan will not cover both Acela IIs and Washington Union Station. That is just Andrew dreamin'.

No, that was actually in a document I recall seeing. Not sure if it was posted here or not.

 

[neroden]

With it looking certain that the Fed is fixing to raise interest rates

The Fed is not going to raise interest rates any time in the near future, unless they're seized by madness. They saw what happened in the EU when they raised rates; the pro-rate-raising people have actually been switching to "keep rates low" out of fear of the EU disaster.

 

[Andrew]

I didn't realize that the other bidder that made it into the final round of bidding was Talgo (in addition to Alstom).

Amtrak also apparently gets a 6 year deferral of loan repayments during the construction period, which will be followed by a 25 year repayment period, from http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/133/704/FY15-Budget-Business-Plan-FY16-Budget-Justification-FY-15-19-Five-Year-Financial-Plan.pdfpage 82.

 

[afigg]

Who does the approvals? The decisions in a democracy are supposed to be made by elected officials and their appointees. If the electeds don't approve of the decisions of the appointees, we get new appointees. Of course, there are simply rules n regulations requiring so many boxes in a long list get check marks. But the loan will be approved.

But I'm wondering, if the RIFF loan can cover a bundle of things like Acelas and work on Washington Union Station, can't it also include $200 million to cover the badly needed option order for the rest of the Viewliners? The cars that would come -- more sleepers n bag dorms -- will produce good revenue. The already-paid-for baggage cars couldn't show any such to pay off a loan. Diners can't either. But sleepers should be bankable.

Of course, in that case, maybe Amtrak is waiting for the haters to adjourn for Xmas holidays or actually pass a funding bill or sumpin. LOL. We may wait at least another three months to see this play out.

The US DOT Credit Council gives the official approval for RRIF and TIFIA loans. Without diving into the details, I figure that the FRA has to recommend the approval of the RRIF loan to the Council. However, the RRIF loan program has long been underused due to the conditions and terms attached. Desert Xpress, now Express West, gave up on its $5.5 billion RRIF application which they blamed on the Buy America requirement, but the FRA & Credit Council may have been very reluctant to approve such a large high risk loan.

RRIF loans are an option for the Acela replacements and was used to finance the ACS-64 order because the NEC generates surplus revenue. If Amtrak can get the eastern states to agree to multi-year contracts for the state corridors, that with the remaining NEC operating surplus could likely be used to get RRIF loan financing for an Amfleet I replacement order. That is not the case for the LD system, which is dependent on year to year subsidy funding from Congress. Amtrak did not get a RRIF loan to finance the 130 car Viewliner II order, but has been doing it out of its own pocket so to speak. OTOH, if Congress gives Amtrak a blanket approval to draw down on $14 billion in RRIF loans, that might change the financing options for replacing Amfleet IIs, P-42s, Superliners. But it is still a loan, that has to be paid off with interest costs.

 

[afigg]

I am almost certain that the same single loan will not cover both Acela IIs and Washington Union Station. That is just Andrew dreamin'.

No, that was actually in a document I recall seeing. Not sure if it was posted here or not.

I also recall reading a statement that the circa $2.5 billion RRIF loan was also going to cover improvements at DC Union Station. Don't recall exactly where. However, the statement might have used DC Union Station as the reference for improvements at the Ivy City yards, modifying the Acela service facilities, squeezing in a few more storage tracks to accommodate the additional HSR trainsets. Funding yard and service facility upgrades as part of the HSR trainset financing package is reasonable, using it to pay for improvements to the station passenger concourse is a bit of a stretch.

 

[jis]

Yup. The $2.5 billion RRIF loan is entirely for Acela II related expenses which include the actual cost of trains and spare parts, and improvement of maintenance facilities at Ivy City, Sunnyside and Southampton Street. There won;t be much left after those are all taken care of, and in all likelihood there will be a cost overrun which will be eaten by payments out of NEC revenues immediately rather in deferred capital and interest payments.

So I don't believe any of that will go to the grand plan for Washington Union Station at all. AFAICT, a lot of that investment will come from other PPP (Public Private Partnership) sources, specially for the headhouse improvements) and not from RRIF infrastructure loans. I suppose some RRIF money could be used for the track level reconstruction and extension work, but that has not much to do with the Acela II loan we are discussing AFAIK. But only time will tell.

 

[west point]

Afigg: Once again Amtrak will be replacing the Amfleet-2s first due to their high LD mileage. Cannot post a link but if you go to Amtrak's reports, select Amtrak fleet strategy version 3.1, go to page 44 - 46 you will see Amtrak plans to replace the Amfleet-2s first. Now it may be that they will either move them to the lower mileage / day NEC or place them in a surge fleet instead of retiring the -2s..

 

[leemell]

With it looking certain that the Fed is fixing to raise interest rates

The Fed is not going to raise interest rates any time in the near future, unless they're seized by madness. They saw what happened in the EU when they raised rates; the pro-rate-raising people have actually been switching to "keep rates low" out of fear of the EU disaster.

From the Wall Street Journal yesterday:

"Federal Reserve officials are likely to raise their benchmark short-term interest rate from near zero Wednesday, expecting to slowly ratchet it higher to above 3% in three years."

 

[Andrew]

The FAST ACT signed by President Obama yesterday enables RRIF Loan repayments to start five years after a project gets completed, instead of within 6 years after the loan term begins. (It also allows Amtrak to reinvest their NEC surplus revenue to get reinvested back into the NEC; in FY 2015, this was almost $500 million).

Would Washington Union Station improvements include platform extensions?

Also, Amtrak is looking at possibly using NEC surplus revenues to pay off a RRIF Loan for their Gateway share. http://www.schumer.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/schumer-booker-amtrak-chair-announce_breakthroughs-achieved-in-just-passed-transpo-bill-that-provides-clear-path-to-federal-funding-for-gateway-tunnel-new-law-puts-gateway-on-track-for-billions-of-much-needed-additional-federal-dollars

 

[jis]

Actually even PRIIA allowed for the NEC revenues to be re-invested in the NEC, but Congress never appropriated enough in any year covered by PRIIA to actually make that happen without shutting down the LD network, or significant parts of it. So things continued pretty much as usual. Maybe Congress will appropriate adequately for it to happen this time. only time will tell. But if Congress does not appropriate $700million+ for the LD side, we can forget about NEC revenues getting re-invested in the NEC. At least part of it will go to support LD or more correctly speaking the central allocated costs of Amtrak. As we know, none of the FY16 figures for Amtrak appropriation suggest that there is any plan to do an adequate appropriation at least for FY16.

Words are cheap. Be on the lookout for what money is actually made available when push comes to shove.

 

[afigg]

Afigg: Once again Amtrak will be replacing the Amfleet-2s first due to their high LD mileage. Cannot post a link but if you go to Amtrak's reports, select Amtrak fleet strategy version 3.1, go to page 44 - 46 you will see Amtrak plans to replace the Amfleet-2s first. Now it may be that they will either move them to the lower mileage / day NEC or place them in a surge fleet instead of retiring the -2s..

I am well aware of the Fleet Strategy Plan V3.1 because it was extensively discussed on here when it was released 3 and a half years ago (April, 2012). Amtrak has since issued updates, such as they are, to its Fleet Strategy since then in the FY14 and FY15 budget and 5 year financial plan documents. The FY2015 plan has the replacement order of single level cars begin in 2019, but has no money for it.

While Amtrak may still wish to replace the Amfleet 2's next, the short supply, attrition losses and breakdown rates of the P-42s locomotives may push ordering some Siemens Chargers to the top of the replacement list. The problem with ordering either Amfleet II replacements or Siemens Chargers for the LD system is that there is little funding available for either. Perhaps for FY2016, Amtrak will issue a complete update of the Fleet Strategy Plan to provide info on their options rather than put in more kick the rolling stock replacement can down the road content in the 5 year financial plan documents. But this is beyond the topic of the HSR trainset order which can be paid for from ticket revenue.

 

[mrpresident1776]

Will the new Acela's be faster right out of the box? I read on Reason Rail that they would reduce the NY-Boston travel time by 38 minutes and 24 minutes between NY and Washington but it wasn't clear whether this would be because of the Acela II's characteristics, better acceleration and higher tilt etc, or if some infrastructure investment would be required. I think the X2000 could do NY-Washington faster than Acela due to lower weigh during a test so a 24 minute reduction is believable. And the plan for Acela was initially about 3 hours but Metro North forbid tilt which added about 30 minutes but I think this is now allowed. A link to the RFP would be helpful too.