Acela II RFP information announcement

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Interesting information. Thanks.

But still all this remains inconsequential since we (a) don't know that the KTX-II was bid by anyone, and (b) even if it was bid, it was not selected. So this is interesting theoretical discussion.

Again, in case anyone is confused, this forum is not an official Amtrak forum and no amount of marketing here is going to have any impact on what Amtrak or FRA does. At best it would amount to venting ones frustration with the state of affairs, which of course continues to be a legitimate use of this forum.
 
IMHO there is absolutely no reason to build / rebuild the NEC for speeds greater than 160 MPH. 160 MPH would mean 1:50 NYP - WASH 225 miles. 220 MPH would mean 1:30 NYP - WASH. So for 20 minutes no way.

...
No way. Not worth it. Absolutely not.

The ruling class may want a trip time D.C.-NYC be about the same as a ride on the Senate elevator. But how many citizens will benefit from our spending $100 Billion and more on the NEC?

At some point, we may see that the true cost of a $100 Billion NEC -- or wasn't the opening bid $160 Billion? -- would surely be more than $200 Billion, maybe $300 or $400 Billion.

Because politicians (and the public) outside the Eastern Seaboard will rightly demand that as much or more be invested in the other states as in the dozen or so on, or very near, to the NEC. (Indeed, Upstate NY and Greater Pittsburgh may have other priorities than saving 20 more minutes off a 2-hour schedule.)

Well, actually, I'm not against that part. LOL. I have big dreams for the country outside the NEC.

I do support the first round upgrades that will increase capacity as well as speeds -- Portal Bridge, Hudson Tunnels, new Baltimore tunnel, Susquehanna bridge, etc. But even there, I'd want an equal amount to go to the rest of the U.S.
 
The aspect of passengers occupying the first driving trailer car of the train at upto 125mph happens on the NEC every day. So it is mostly a red herring IMHO.
The collision scenario with Acela I rules out EMUs.
When the original Acela trainsets are withdrawn from service and returned to the lessor, following the delivery of the "Acela II" replacements, that really won't be an issue.
 
When the original Acela trainsets are withdrawn from service and returned to the lessor, following the delivery of the "Acela II" replacements, that really won't be an issue.
The Acela I will coexist with the Acela II as long as 7 years. Of course a possible collision with Acela I train sets are factored into the selection of Acela II train sets.
 
When the original Acela trainsets are withdrawn from service and returned to the lessor, following the delivery of the "Acela II" replacements, that really won't be an issue.
The Acela I will coexist with the Acela II as long as 7 years. Of course a possible collision with Acela I train sets are factored into the selection of Acela II train sets.
Americas railroads are being compelled to spend many Billions on high tech systems to prevent crashes. Will these systems work? if not, why not, and why spend the Billions for a half-assed system?
 
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The aspect of passengers occupying the first driving trailer car of the train at upto 125mph happens on the NEC every day. So it is mostly a red herring IMHO.
The collision scenario with Acela I rules out EMUs.
When the original Acela trainsets are withdrawn from service and returned to the lessor, following the delivery of the "Acela II" replacements, that really won't be an issue.
The Acela leases were bought out, as I recall.
 
IMHO there is absolutely no reason to build / rebuild the NEC for speeds greater than 160 MPH. 160 MPH would mean 1:50 NYP - WASH 225 miles. 220 MPH would mean 1:30 NYP - WASH. So for 20 minutes no way.

The NYP - BOS route of 231 miles will need much more work to get even 160 MPH. This poster would expect 3:00 is doable in about 25 years.

It is all about getting rid of the slow sections such as Frankford curve. Much cheaper in the long run.

At that time the POLs can decide of expansion if realistic. Both NEC and other locations.
I agree. Run Acela at 160 MPH and improve some of the slow sections. That is feasible. Running faster than that is a pipedream for the foreseeable future and I don't believe it is necessary anyway between Washington and New York.
 
Interesting information. Thanks.

But still all this remains inconsequential since we (a) don't know that the KTX-II was bid by anyone, and (b) even if it was bid, it was not selected. So this is interesting theoretical discussion.

Again, in case anyone is confused, this forum is not an official Amtrak forum and no amount of marketing here is going to have any impact on what Amtrak or FRA does. At best it would amount to venting ones frustration with the state of affairs, which of course continues to be a legitimate use of this forum.
It does sound like some kind of marketing going on. That won't do any good here.

One thing that always is a consideration with Amtrak is the financing plan.

I don't have a clue as to what they are going to order. Or from who, except the rumors. I think after they order and we see what has been ordered and from whom there will be a lot of discussion. It will also become clearer why they ordered from who and why they ordered whatever type of power. I won't have any problem being critical of what they order if I think it deserves criticism. But I will wait and see.
 
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So in a country that desperately needs a true HSR system you just want to roll over a play dead? While true HSR is no where near happening cause the folks in that big capitol building don't seem to care. Saying let's just run at 150 between WAS-NYP is the answer? No it's not. That's what guys like John Mica want people to say. Let's just think about how the NEC would be in 2040 without any decent HSR, and we're talking about Highways and Airports.
 
Actually I do think 160mph is OK between New York and Washington given the stopping patterns and reasonable end to end times that one can achieve with it. Going beyond that at this in exchange for lower overall capacity has lower net ROI. Maybe someday there will be a time to reach for higher speeds, but does not make much sense right now. OTOH, higher speeds in other more open spaces with easier access to ROW does make sense. That is why California and Texas make sense and they actually make trips that are impossible to do today possible. Increasing speed on the NEC by another 40mph or so does not produce the bang for the enormous cost for achieving that. It is just a matter of fulfilling the most pressing needs first instead of getting carried away by the hype.

And actually your characterization of John Mica is inaccurate. he was one of the few people in Florida who fought hard and lost on the Orlando - Tampa HSR.

NEC will actually have very decent service and will not need expansion of highways and airports if we are able to do significant parts of alternative 2. What NEC really needs to stop needing more highways and airports are feeder lines more than a fancier spine. Airports are clogged by puddle jumpers going to Scranton and Albany and such. It is those line that need to be improved and or reinstated if we want to address the airport and highway problem, not get NEC to run 40mph faster.
 
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Because politicians (and the public) outside the Eastern Seaboard will rightly demand that as much or more be invested in the other states as in the dozen or so on, or very near, to the NEC. (Indeed, Upstate NY and Greater Pittsburgh may have other priorities than saving 20 more minutes off a 2-hour schedule.)
Indeed. From my upstate NY perspective, the NEC is plenty fast enough. I understand the need to replace decaying "may fail at any time" infrastructure, and high platforms & wheelchair access need to be universal, and some of those SEPTA stops are practically derelict and need platforms built (!!!), and redundancy is valuable as is storm-proofing, and there are some capacity needs... but there is no need whatsoever to go faster on the NEC.
Routes which do need to go faster include:

Downeaster

Springfield Shuttle

Lake Shore Limited Boston Section

Inland Route

Empire Service (south)

Empire Service (west)

Lake Shore Limited to Chicago

Pennsylvanian

Wolverine

Blue Water

Pere Marquette

Hoosier State

Cardinal

Capitol Limited

Carolinian

Texas Eagle

...and a number of routes which are not currently operating.

jis said:
Airports are clogged by puddle jumpers going to Scranton and Albany and such. It is those line that need to be improved and or reinstated if we want to address the airport and highway problem, not get NEC to run 40mph faster.
Yep.
 
Actually I do think 160mph is OK between New York and Washington given the stopping patterns
Other country's corridors easily reach the top speed of 187 mph with a 30 mile average distance between stations. 187 mph is doable on NEC as long as tracks are straightened up.
 
Actually I do think 160mph is OK between New York and Washington given the stopping patterns
Other country's corridors easily reach the top speed of 187 mph with a 30 mile average distance between stations. 187 mph is doable on NEC as long as tracks are straightened up.
Good luck with getting the tracks straightened up. There are many obstacles to that.
 
This from the lady who manages the safety case for Acela II service on the NEC. I actually spoke to her about the issue of going faster than 160mph on the NEC. Her answer was that this is not going to happen until track center distances are increased, and that require acquisition of extremely expensive real estate in many places 160 is right at eh edge of safe operation with current track center distances according to her.

There is the potential of increasing track center distance at great cost without acquiring any additional real estate most of the way between New Brunswick and Trenton, since Amtrak already owns enough property. but for now Amtrak has chosen to upgrade to 160mph and CT catenary with new catenary posts making no allowance for such spreading of the ROW in the future. So it is safe to surmise that Amtrak at present has no plans to run trains faster than 160mph on the current ROW. Any faster running will be on new ROW which of course may not happen soon, though there are plans for many track straightening projects involving new ROW in the NEC Future Alternative 2 and 3, and as expected, the cost is great. If and when that happens the ROW acquired could be wide enough for greater track center distances. So we'll see when that happens.

At the end of the day maximum speed is just one of several factors involved in reducing start to stop running times in the specific environment in which a train is to operate. It is not and end all and be all by itself, except among some frothing railfans.
 
The whole Midwestern corridors vision was based on the practical measure that with 110-mph you can get at least half the benefit (ridership? value of time saved by riders?) of true HSR which costs 10 times as much. (Am I remembering the numbers right?) You'll get more bang for the buck by upgrading many corridors than from gilding one for the Seaboard elite.

Nobody cares how fast they are going. Everybody wants to know how long the trip will take, when it will arrive, when it will leave, can they grab something to eat in the station or on the train, and if they can't make that mid-day departure when is the next one they can take, etc.

Politicians want to know how much train can they get with this amount of money in the budget.

Hey, citizens want to know what they'll get for the money.

When 3-C's project in Ohio was announced, it was said to go an average of 49 mph. When 49 mph became the number in the popular mind, the project was doomed. No matter that someone hurried along a couple of weeks later to explain that on a closer look it would be 59 mph, and with more money it could be 69 mph. Too late, too late, too late. Those numbers never caught up with the fast-moving 49-mph description.

Back to the Midwest Regional plan. Get the trip times under 4 hours to compete with flying, get them down to 3 hours and it's a big hit!

So the Stimulus was to fund St Louis-Chicago, for a Billion get the trip down from 5:30 to about 4:30. Another Billion would get it below that 4-hour mark.

Meanwhile, Detroit-Chicago would go from 5:40 on one of the Wolverine runs, down to about 4:50. (Am I doing this right? I always stumble over the time zones, LOL.) That's not great for the end cities, but it's better. And it is great for Ann Arbor and Kalamazoo, the busiest stations in Michigan today. Another Billion in upgrades (mostly South of the Lake) would cut the 4:50ish run time down to 4:10 or even to 4 hours even.

So two, $2 Billion projects would get very High Performing routes connecting two very big cities and their metro areas with near 4-hour trip times.

Just going with the $1 Billion each in upgrades underway will get two 110-mph routes where ridership could exceed a million on each of them by 2020.

With those results we hope that the neighbors will get jealous and want trains, too. Like Cleveland-Toledo-CHI, Indianapolis-CHI, Cincinnati-Indy-CHI, Louisville-Indy-CHI, Minneapolis-St Paul-Milwaukee-CHI, St Louis-Kansas City, CHI-Quad Cities at 110 mph, then on to Iowa City, Des Moines, and Omaha at 79 mph. (As long as they go faster than the cars on the road alongside, they will do well.) At least $25 Billion to do those routes. My wild guess that would get 3 million new riders moving at speeds up to 110 mph and getting to their destination in 4 hours or so.

For the NEC, we all want the same basic stuff. Portal Bridge, new Hudson Tunnels, new Baltimore Tunnel, Susquehanna and several other bridges, state of good repair up n down the line. That all needs to be done, along with undercutting, other track work, and new catenary, for safety and reliability. When finished, these projects should make possible some 160-mph running for bragging rights, and shave minutes off the trip time, lemme hazard a guess of shaving up to 15 minutes. So Acela Is now making NY Penn Station to Union Station in 2 hrs 53 minutes could aim for 2 hrs 40 minutes. Acela IIs might, might, get to 2 hrs 30 minutes.

How many Billions again would it cost to get run time down to 1 hr 50 minutes?

Meanwhile Regionals could be moving along Penn Station-Union Station in about 3 hours. Their riders would be very happy.

Plans to hurry up and spend $100 Billion or $168 Billion on the NEC strike me as obscene, a hub-of-the-universe arrogance, and a project for the benefit to an elite who think their time is so extremely valuable that $100 Billion of other people's money is just another day marking up the Defense Dept budget.

Meanwhile, millions of ordinary people living on corridors like Baton Rouge-NOLA, Knoxville-Chattanooga, Phoenix-Tucson, Pueblo-Denver, and yeah, Detroit-Cleveland, just want to get somewhere in less than 4 hours. Their needs can be met for roughly $2 billion and up per project.

OK, New York has a plan to spend $6 or $7 Billion between Albany and Buffalo, LOL, But for $6 or $7 Billion we could likely get a new Potomac Bridge, a 90-minute corridor to Richmond, probably less than 4 hours Raleigh-Richmond, and more.

I'm hoping that Congress, in the old-fashioned way, will spread the gravy all across the land. Don't lavish it all on helping the ruling class move faster between the political and financial capitals of the country.

First triple, or at least double, Amtrak's non-NEC passengers on state-supported corridors and more LD trains moving at 110 mph. Then I might listen to a case for a gilded ride on the NEC at 180 mph.
 
It appears that a mechanical failure on the TGV train itself was the cause of crash.

https://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/train-driver-denies-excess-speed-caused-derailment-eastern-132628839--sector.html

Train driver denies excess speed caused derailment in eastern France
Prosecutors described the train driver as "very experienced" during a press conference on Monday.
"He said he had respected the speed indicated on the map of the route," deputy persecutor Alexandre Chevrier told journalists, adding that the train's speed was 176 km (109 miles) per hour when the accident happened.
 
It appears that a mechanical failure on the TGV train itself was the cause of crash.

https://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/train-driver-denies-excess-speed-caused-derailment-eastern-132628839--sector.html

Train driver denies excess speed caused derailment in eastern France

Prosecutors described the train driver as "very experienced" during a press conference on Monday.

"He said he had respected the speed indicated on the map of the route," deputy persecutor Alexandre Chevrier told journalists, adding that the train's speed was 176 km (109 miles) per hour when the accident happened.
That is not what the article says. As I said before it is premature to conclude what caused the accident.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
That is not what the article says. As I said before it is premature to conclude what caused the accident.
At 109 mph, the TGV train certainly wasn't speeding, and many test runs were made on that section before.

My suspicion is a cracked wheel or broken axle due to mechanical stress.
 
This from the lady who manages the safety case for Acela II service on the NEC. I actually spoke to her about the issue of going faster than 160mph on the NEC. Her answer was that this is not going to happen until track center distances are increased, and that require acquisition of extremely expensive real estate in many places 160 is right at eh edge of safe operation with current track center distances according to her.

There is the potential of increasing track center distance at great cost without acquiring any additional real estate most of the way between New Brunswick and Trenton, since Amtrak already owns enough property. but for now Amtrak has chosen to upgrade to 160mph and CT catenary with new catenary posts making no allowance for such spreading of the ROW in the future. So it is safe to surmise that Amtrak at present has no plans to run trains faster than 160mph on the current ROW. Any faster running will be on new ROW which of course may not happen soon, though there are plans for many track straightening projects involving new ROW in the NEC Future Alternative 2 and 3, and as expected, the cost is great. If and when that happens the ROW acquired could be wide enough for greater track center distances. So we'll see when that happens.

At the end of the day maximum speed is just one of several factors involved in reducing start to stop running times in the specific environment in which a train is to operate. It is not and end all and be all by itself, except among some frothing railfans.
That makes me question the wisdom of even going to 160mph on the NEC. What is the benefit - a few minutes of run time? Will cutting five or ten minutes of run time really make such a difference that Acela will gain significant market share. As an engineer, the statement "edge of safe operation" is chilling. Engineers do not design life-critical facilities on the edge of safety, particularly when that "edge" is not necessarily easy to determine analytically. The engineering rule of thumb is that the effects of speed are based on the square of the ratio. The impact of 160mph is 14% higher than 150mph. Is moving 14% closer to the safe/unsafe line worth it?

The proposed 160mph NEC operation has always seemed to be more a political and PR move than a prudent transportation and engineering decision. It's Amtrak's TGV envy showing. The Amtrak people making these decisions are often not technical people, and the true technical people behind the Amtrak curtain likely cringe when they hear some of this stuff.
 
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On the matter of the MAS on NEC, I agree that way too much is being made of 160mph. I am not sure what has happened since then with the 160mph safety case. The primary issue in that has been the track center issue. Until the safety case is signed off there will not be a 160mph commercial service. Originally the plan was to have introduced 160mph service up north where the current MAS is 150mph by this time. The fact that this has not happened may be indicative of something or maybe not. I would not blame just Amtrak. I think it is the whole nation's TGV envy reflected through the Congress pushing for such while being unwilling to invest adequately to make it a well capitalized and sustainable project.

Meanwhile of course, for all of that money allocated for the NJ speedway, apparently we will not get constant tension catenary even on the measly few miles between New Brunswick (actually CP County) and Trenton (actually CP Ham AFAICT). What has been completed so far is renewal of tracks 1 and 4, construction of the Delco and Adams high speed crossovers. Substantial progress has been made on the signaling system upgrade, Work continues apace on replacement o Midway, Ham and Fair interlocking plants. The electrification upgrade project is way behind schedule and as I mention part of it will not get the CT upgrade. And AFAICT they have run so short of money that the entire Penn Station A interlocking realignment project is being shelved. Also some of the upgrade proposed for the electrification feeder system also won;t see the light of the day apparently. Even with all that there is significant risk that the allocated funds may not all get expended within the deadline. What happens then is anyone's guess.
 
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It appears that a mechanical failure on the TGV train itself was the cause of crash.

https://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/train-driver-denies-excess-speed-caused-derailment-eastern-132628839--sector.html

Train driver denies excess speed caused derailment in eastern France
Prosecutors described the train driver as "very experienced" during a press conference on Monday.
"He said he had respected the speed indicated on the map of the route," deputy persecutor Alexandre Chevrier told journalists, adding that the train's speed was 176 km (109 miles) per hour when the accident happened.
Apparently SNCF bosses disagree with the rumor mill, possibly after bothering to read the black box, instead of going off half cocked.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/europe/single-view/view/late-braking-caused-tgv-derailment-says-sncf.html

FRANCE: SNCF President Guillaume Pepy emphasised the ‘over-riding importance of organisational and human factors’ following the publication on November 19 of an initial report into the fatal derailment near Strasbourg on November 14 of a TGV during commissioning trials for Phase 2 of LGV Est-Européenne. The accident claimed the lives of 11 people, injuring 37 of which three are still reported to be seriously ill.

The report has concluded that the ‘certain cause’ of the accident was ‘a late braking sequence’. The train derailed at 243 km/h after entering a 945 m radius curve over a canal at Eckwersheim at 265 km/h, instead of the 176 km/h limit applying to that point in the test run. The resulting centrifugal force destabilised the TGV causing the vehicles to derail, with some coming to rest in the canal. The curve forms the approach to the grade-separated junction between LGV Est and the Paris – Strasbourg main line at Vendenheim.
 
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Hi,

The current Railway Age magazine has a very good article about The New Jersey 160mph speedway upgrade. Unfortunately, time constraints does not allow enough time to realign a reverse curve adjacent to wetlands. I read the the one interlocking is going to remain with No. 20 crossovers with fixed-income frogs, which reduces maintenance. My commuter train route has a few of the same No. 20 crossovers using 40pm on the diverging movement. We also travel over a No. 24 switch with a fixed-point point frog and I think that the diverging movement is 55pm where we go from double to single track. I could notice the speed increase when they installed the No. 24 switch.
 
Are the new train-sets supposed to be lighter than the current ones?

Also, although Amtrak plans on ordering 28 train-sets, what will be the increase in frequency runs between New York City and Washington DC?
 
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