Acela II RFP information announcement

[Hal]

Since first class is an extremely profitable niche for Amtrak, I highly doubt if it would be eliminated. And where did that come from anyway? I didn't see any other mention of eliminating first class,other than Andrew's post.

I wonder if Acela First is really that profitable for Amtrak. The First Class car has 45 seats. A Business Car has about 65 seats. By airline standards, the up charge for First is pretty modest - about $120 or so NYP-WAS or NYP-BOS. Is the up charge for First enough to compensate for the fewer available revenue seats and the food, beverage and staffing cost of the First Class car?

I doubt it is very profitable, if profitable at all, but passengers like the option even if they don't use it all the time. Like if they had meetings all day, want to get home without stopping for food. Also Amrak can offer upgrades to first class for frequent travelers. So having First Class available is part of marketing Acela service.

 

[jis]

Domestic First Class on airlines is almost certainly not all that profitable by itself. After all most of it seem to be filled by upgrades or continuation of international FC/BC itineraries.

 

[west point]

Acela first class may be profitable if some riders decide to not ride Amtrak if no first class seats available. Those riders do not have to choose Amtrak at all but an airline or limo. The same may be said to a lesser extent for Business class riders on Regionals.

 

[Andrew]

Did the RFP call for the new train-sets to be the exact same length as the current Acela train-sets?

 

[Fan Railer]

Did the RFP call for the new train-sets to be the exact same length as the current Acela train-sets?

Maximum length of 205 meters.

 

[Acela150]

Did the RFP call for the new train-sets to be the exact same length as the current Acela train-sets?

Maximum length of 205 meters.

In non metric terms 672 Feet. So about the same as what the current HST's are like.

 

[afigg]

Did the RFP call for the new train-sets to be the exact same length as the current Acela train-sets?

Maximum length of 205 meters.

The 205 meters length was specified for the wheelbase. not the actual trainset length. In the original joint RFP, the spec was "For Amtrak, the distance between the first and last axles of the Trainset shall be a maximum of 205 m (672.6 feet)." So the trainset may be several meters longer, depending on the overhang at the ends.

 

[Andrew]

Did the RFP call for the new train-sets to be the exact same length as the current Acela train-sets?

Maximum length of 205 meters.

The 205 meters length was specified for the wheelbase. not the actual trainset length. In the original joint RFP, the spec was "For Amtrak, the distance between the first and last axles of the Trainset shall be a maximum of 205 m (672.6 feet)." So the trainset may be several meters longer, depending on the overhang at the ends.

Which link did you get that quote from?

 

[afigg]

The 205 meters length was specified for the wheelbase. not the actual trainset length. In the original joint RFP, the spec was "For Amtrak, the distance between the first and last axles of the Trainset shall be a maximum of 205 m (672.6 feet)." So the trainset may be several meters longer, depending on the overhang at the ends.

Which link did you get that quote from?

I got the quote from a copy of the HSR trainset RFP spec I downloaded from either CHSRA website or the Amtrak procurement portal when the joint procurement documents were made public. Those document links were taken down on the CHSRA website sometime after the joint procurement attempt ended. The new RFP documents for the HSR trainsets by CHSRA are available, BTW, if you want to read what they are seeking. But those are likely to be entirely different trainsets that what Amtrak buys for the NEC.

On the Amtrak new HSR trainset front, the FRA has granted Amtrak's request for a Buy America waiver for the aluminum car body shells and brake units. Saw that the grant of the waiver request was recently posted to the FRA eLibrary site along with a bunch of presentations from a mid-October FRA rail delivery conference, some of which have useful info.

The letter granting the waiver and providing the justification is available here: Amtrak High Speed Rail Trainset Components Buy America Waiver Decision. What strikes me reading the letter is how much time and money must have been spent to justify the Buy America waiver by the FRA staff, Amtrak, and the 23 US vendors contacted & asked to provide details on their capability. Amtrak submitted the waiver request in November, 2014 and it was granted a year later in November, 2015. There is a reason it took an entire year, wasting IMHO both valuable time and money. I don't have a problem with the intent of the Buy America rules, it is just the 100% part that drives costs up. Brief excerpt from the letter:

In July 2014, Amtrak issued a Request for Proposal for its procurement of HSR trainsets. In October 2014, Amtrak received technical proposals from manufacturers in response to its Request for Proposals. After reviewing the proposals, Amtrak determined there were seven (7) Components of the trainsets' 134 components that each manufacturer indicated it could not source domestically. On November 3, 2014, Amtrak requested from the FRA a Buy America waiver for these seven (7) components and the HSR trainset paint (discussed in more detail below).
Coordinating with FRA, in February 2015 Amtrak engaged the Department of Commerce's National Institute of Standards and Technology's Hollings Manufacturing Extension Partnership (NIST-MEP) to scout for domestic manufacturers ofthe Components. In its April 2015 report, NIST-MEP did not identify any suppliers making the exact Components. NIST-MEP did identify a total of 23 potential suppliers that either make products similar to the Components or claim to have the capability to manufacture the Components. FRA asked Amtrak to investigate whether any of the potential suppliers could manufacture the Components. After analyzing the NISTMEP report and Amtrak's report regarding follow-up discussions with the potential suppliers, FRA finds that none of the potential suppliers currently manufacture the Components.

Also, in the letter it states that the Notice to Proceed is scheduled for February 2016 (or that is the hope).

 

[Andrew]

The 205 meters length was specified for the wheelbase. not the actual trainset length. In the original joint RFP, the spec was "For Amtrak, the distance between the first and last axles of the Trainset shall be a maximum of 205 m (672.6 feet)." So the trainset may be several meters longer, depending on the overhang at the ends.

Which link did you get that quote from?

I got the quote from a copy of the HSR trainset RFP spec I downloaded from either CHSRA website or the Amtrak procurement portal when the joint procurement documents were made public. Those document links were taken down on the CHSRA website sometime after the joint procurement attempt ended. The new RFP documents for the HSR trainsets by CHSRA are available, BTW, if you want to read what they are seeking. But those are likely to be entirely different trainsets that what Amtrak buys for the NEC.

On the Amtrak new HSR trainset front, the FRA has granted Amtrak's request for a Buy America waiver for the aluminum car body shells and brake units. Saw that the grant of the waiver request was recently posted to the FRA eLibrary site along with a bunch of presentations from a mid-October FRA rail delivery conference, some of which have useful info.

The letter granting the waiver and providing the justification is available here: Amtrak High Speed Rail Trainset Components Buy America Waiver Decision. What strikes me reading the letter is how much time and money must have been spent to justify the Buy America waiver by the FRA staff, Amtrak, and the 23 US vendors contacted & asked to provide details on their capability. Amtrak submitted the waiver request in November, 2014 and it was granted a year later in November, 2015. There is a reason it took an entire year, wasting IMHO both valuable time and money. I don't have a problem with the intent of the Buy America rules, it is just the 100% part that drives costs up. Brief excerpt from the letter:

In July 2014, Amtrak issued a Request for Proposal for its procurement of HSR trainsets. In October 2014, Amtrak received technical proposals from manufacturers in response to its Request for Proposals. After reviewing the proposals, Amtrak determined there were seven (7) Components of the trainsets' 134 components that each manufacturer indicated it could not source domestically. On November 3, 2014, Amtrak requested from the FRA a Buy America waiver for these seven (7) components and the HSR trainset paint (discussed in more detail below).
Coordinating with FRA, in February 2015 Amtrak engaged the Department of Commerce's National Institute of Standards and Technology's Hollings Manufacturing Extension Partnership (NIST-MEP) to scout for domestic manufacturers ofthe Components. In its April 2015 report, NIST-MEP did not identify any suppliers making the exact Components. NIST-MEP did identify a total of 23 potential suppliers that either make products similar to the Components or claim to have the capability to manufacture the Components. FRA asked Amtrak to investigate whether any of the potential suppliers could manufacture the Components. After analyzing the NISTMEP report and Amtrak's report regarding follow-up discussions with the potential suppliers, FRA finds that none of the potential suppliers currently manufacture the Components.

Also, in the letter it states that the Notice to Proceed is scheduled for February 2016 (or that is the hope).

Well, I look forward to hearing more about the length of the train-set and seating capacity, etc.

If the Notice to Proceed is scheduled for February 2016, then revenue service would not probably not begin for at least four years. After all, the original train-set contract was signed in March of 1996, and those train-sets did not enter revenue service until December of 2000, or at least on the section between New Haven, Connecticut, and Boston, Massachusetts.

We also don't know which company will build the new train-sets.

 

[jis]

Some people in important positions both inside and outside Amtrak sound like they are certain it is Alstom.

 

[internationalpirate]

Two strikes against Alstom today.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34822666

French TGV high-speed train derails near Strasbourg

A high-speed TGV train has derailed near the eastern French city of Strasbourg, killing at least 10 people, officials say.
The crash happened during a test run in the town of Eckwersheim, on a new Paris-Strasbourg line.

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/alstom-sentenced-pay-772-million-criminal-fine-resolve-foreign-bribery-charges

Alstom Sentenced to Pay $772 Million Criminal Fine to Resolve Foreign Bribery Charges

Represents Largest-Ever Criminal Foreign Bribery Fine

Alstom S.A., a French power and transportation company, was sentenced today to pay a $772,290,000 fine to resolve criminal charges related to a widespread corruption scheme involving at least $75 million in secret bribes paid to government officials in countries around the world, including Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the Bahamas and Taiwan.

 

[internationalpirate]

There are only two HSR train models with zero passenger accident fatalities to date; KTX-II and Pure Shinkansen(Hybrid Shinkansen E2 was involved in the 2011 Wenzhou disaster and countless perished).

 

[PVD]

It appears that the bribery involved the type of equipment that was sold by the part of the company that GE bought.

It is a little premature to call the train accident a strike against Alstom, since accident investigations very often take a turn away from the populist speculation. On the other hand, regardless of what actually occurred it will probably be perceived by the public as such.

 

[Hal]

Two strikes against Alstom today.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34822666

French TGV high-speed train derails near Strasbourg

A high-speed TGV train has derailed near the eastern French city of Strasbourg, killing at least 10 people, officials say.

The crash happened during a test run in the town of Eckwersheim, on a new Paris-Strasbourg line.

It is premature to call it a strike against Alstom.

 

[jis]

Besides TGV is not what Alstom is bidding in the US. It does not have viable tilting version. What i am hearing is that it is a version of the Pendolino that is in play in the NEC RFP.

I don't believe either of those are strikes for or against anything at present.

 

[internationalpirate]

Besides TGV is not what Alstom is bidding in the US. It does not have viable tilting version. What i am hearing is that it is a version of the Pendolino that is in play in the NEC RFP.

It is not Pendolino for one simple reason; there is no Pendolino model in service at 160 mph(maximum is 140 mph) and speed increase adds weight to rolling stocks, on top of FRA-fied weight increase which requires more powerful electrical propulsion and so on.

The French newspaper claimed it was a TGV power car + AGV coach + unpowered Pendolino tiling bogie on offer. In other word, a modernized single level TGV.

I don't believe either of those are strikes for or against anything at present.

Surely it will. The train you are considering just had a major disaster and cost $1 billion more than the rival with zero fatality.

 

[jis]

Believe whatever you like.

BTW I am not considering anything. I just report what I hear from reliable sources. Take it or leave it. I don't really care either way. Don't have a dog in the race.

 

[Paulus]

The disaster was due to excessive speed, not an issue with the train design, so what's the relevance?

 

[MattW]

The disaster was due to excessive speed, not an issue with the train design, so what's the relevance?

It's only been a day, we can't say what it was yet.

 

[jis]

From what is known so far it was a test train operating at upto 350 kph on a segment that is still under construction and apparently does not have over speed protection operative yet. The derailment took place on a curve due to over speeding through the curve.

This segment is scheduled to be completed and put into commercial service in April 2016

 

[Paulus]

The disaster was due to excessive speed, not an issue with the train design, so what's the relevance?

It's only been a day, we can't say what it was yet.

It was already being reported as excessive speed.

 

[frequentflyer]

What prototype train was being tested? New type of Duplex?

 

[afigg]

It is not Pendolino for one simple reason; there is no Pendolino model in service at 160 mph(maximum is 140 mph) and speed increase adds weight to rolling stocks, on top of FRA-fied weight increase which requires more powerful electrical propulsion and so on.

The New Pendolino trainsets have a max rated in service speed of 250 kph or 155 mph. Wikipedia entry on the New Pendolino ETR600 / ED250 trainsets. A ED250 Pendolino trainset reached 292 kph (182 mph) in Poland, so the ED250 models have enough power to exceed 160 mph.

The New Pendolino design is close to the speeds that Amtrak needs for the NEC. The ones in service with 7 cars are notably shorter than the specified length limit, so whether Alstom has proposed an longer trainset with a 160 to 165 mph revenue service speed, don't know. We may find out in the next month or so. The granting of the Buy America waiver request by the FRA clears one hurdle for an official contract award.

 

[jis]

The Buy America waivers are BTW mostly about minimizing the FRA related weight increases. The components needed are simply not available in the US, since no one builds any serious higher speed trains for operating above 125mph, in the US. The last such train built was built using an obsolete and hopeless FRA Tier II standard which even the FRA has abandoned, and no new Tier II equipment will ever be built. So part of the reason that Amtrak and American taxpayers have ahd to piss away significant amounts of money on obsolete systems with no reasonable source for expansion or replacement in kind is the hubris and incompetence of the FRA standard making office. Hope they have learned their lesson and will move on in a more productive direction.

BTW, here is an article on the Polish Alstom Pendolions ....