Acela II RFP information announcement

[frequentflyer]

To jls-

I mentioned GE in this since they bought Alstom's power generation business and will work closely with Alstom in the railroad business worldwide.

For some reason the link to the story will not post.

 

[jis]

One thing interesting about Alstom is that many moons ago they were a joint company with GEC of UK and were known then as GEC-Alstom. While being part of the GEC-Alstom conglomerate, part of the Alstom's holding company was acquired by Alcatel to take the name Alcatel-Alstom. Then bothGEC and Alcatel divested Alstom and it became a separate companies. Now they have sold their power business to GE US and their turbine business to Ansaldo. The deal with GE apparently includes some unspecified collaboration with GE on the transportation side. As for whether the flow will be from GE to Alstom or Asynchronous AC traction technology from Alstom to GE is yet to be seen. Maybe Alstom will start using GE prime movers now that they have also gotten rid of their diesel motor business. Or perhaps GE is hoping to swap out the transportation division to Alstom? Who knows? If that were to happen this wouldn't be the first time that an US icon sold part of itself to a French conglomerate. Remember Lucent Technologies to Alcatel to form Alcatel-Lucent? Yes that same Alcatel mentioned above.

Of course Originally Alstom was created as Alsthom by the merger of Alsace and Thompson.

Incidentally Alstom has huge huge contracts with India. India's next generation mainline passenger cars are all based on Alstom's LHB design. All the newer Rajdhani and Shatabdi Express cars that you see in Eddie's photos are LHB cars. And they recently signed a huge diesel engine deal too.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

I mentioned GE in this since they bought Alstom's power generation business and will work closely with Alstom in the railroad business worldwide.

Absolutely. When the deal was proposed, the French government was concerned that if GE took the power generating stuff, the remaining transportation equipment biz would be small and vulnerable.

GE agreed to "pay for" part of the price for the power generation biz by giving Alstom all or a part of its signaling (or something) and related railroad biz. With that concession, the French govt gave consent. So GE and Alstom have formed several "joint ventures". Now, a joint venture can be 50:50 or 25:75 of 49:51, whatever. It can be like one of those French style, um, relationships in which the two parties cohabitate. It's not exactly marriage but they act like it is.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

One thing interesting about Alstom is that many moons ago they were a joint company with GEC of UK and were known then as GEC-Alstom. While being part of the GEC-Alstom conglomerate, part of the Alstom's holding company was acquired by Alcatel to take the name Alcatel-Alstom. Then bothGEC and Alcatel divested Alstom and it became a separate companies. Now they have sold their power business to GE US and their turbine business to Ansaldo. The deal with GE apparently includes some unspecified collaboration with GE on the transportation side. As for whether the flow will be from GE to Alstom or Asynchronous AC traction technology from Alstom to GE is yet to be seen. Maybe Alstom will start using GE prime movers now that they have also gotten rid of their diesel motor business. Or perhaps GE is hoping to swap out the transportation division to Alstom? Who knows? If that were to happen this wouldn't be the first time that an US icon sold part of itself to a French conglomerate. Remember Lucent Technologies to Alcatel to form Alcatel-Lucent? Yes that same Alcatel mentioned above.

Of course Originally Alstom was created as Alsthom by the merger of Alsace and Thompson.

...

Nice history of corporate marriages and European cohabitations. LOL.

 

[Andrew]

So the train-sets will be distributed power, and if they are Americanized AGV's, then they will probably be taller than the current AGV's?

 

[keelhauled]

So the train-sets will be distributed power, and if they are Americanized AGV's, then they will probably be taller than the current AGV's?

How in the world do you expect anyone to know?

 

[jis]

Specifically I have no idea why they must be taller than current AGVs. AFAIK they are not double deckers so what is the need for being taller?

 

[afigg]

So the train-sets will be distributed power, and if they are Americanized AGV's, then they will probably be taller than the current AGV's?

Andrew, you are going to have to wait until the official announcement and press release on the contract award. Even then, technical details may be sparse for some time.

 

[Andrew]

Specifically I have no idea why they must be taller than current AGVs. AFAIK they are not double deckers so what is the need for being taller?

Viewliner's are 14 feet tall, and new dual-power locomotives are just slightly more than 14 feet tall, so maybe the new train-sets will be 14 feet tall. It seems that 14 feet is a pretty typical number.

 

[Ryan]

It just seems that you're making stuff up again. Have some patience.

 

[internationalpirate]

So the train-sets will be distributed power, and if they are Americanized AGV's, then they will probably be taller than the current AGV's?

http://www.lerail.com/alstom-en-discussion-avec-amtrak-pour-28-rames-lgv/

a driving classic TGV, the AGV type of cars without engine and an identical tilting system to that used on the Pendolino products in Italy

Based on this article, Alstom is essentially proposing a TGV model. The reason it comes with AGV's unpowered coach is that Alstom doesn't have aluminum body single-level coach cars at the moment(All new coaches are bi-level duplexes and all single-level coaches are obsolete mild steel cars), so they are trying to create a new modernized single level TGV train set by combining a pair of TGV power cars with AGV's coach cars.

But something like that already exists and is in a full-scale production; it's called Hyundai Rotem's KTX-II and this model costs only $28 million per 200 m long trainset. Even with Buy America compliance, it would not exceed more than $50 million per train set, so AMTRAK's total bill for 28 sets would come at $1.4 billion, a full $1.1 billion less than Alstom's rumored bid price of $2.5 billion.

So let me ask you this question, does it make sense to pay $1.1 billion more just for tilting, when the faster acceleration rate and the lighter weight of a Tier-III train set would improve cornering and match the travel time of the Acela Express without tilting anyway.

So this whole $2.5 billion Alstom selection rumor sounds fishy to me, especially considering how much the tilt-less rival is cheaper. We are not talking a couple hundred million dollars, but a cool billion dollar cheaper.

 

[Andrew]

So the train-sets will be distributed power, and if they are Americanized AGV's, then they will probably be taller than the current AGV's?

http://www.lerail.com/alstom-en-discussion-avec-amtrak-pour-28-rames-lgv/

a driving classic TGV, the AGV type of cars without engine and an identical tilting system to that used on the Pendolino products in Italy

Based on this article, Alstom is essentially proposing a TGV model. The reason it comes with AGV's unpowered coach is that Alstom doesn't have aluminum body single-level coach cars at the moment(All new coaches are bi-level duplexes and all single-level coaches are obsolete mild steel cars), so they are trying to create a new modernized single level TGV train set by combining a pair of TGV power cars with AGV's coach cars.

But something like that already exists and is in a full-scale production; it's called Hyundai Rotem's KTX-II and this model costs only $28 million per 200 m long trainset. Even with Buy America compliance, it would not exceed more than $50 million per train set, so AMTRAK's total bill for 28 sets would come at $1.4 billion, a full $1.1 billion less than Alstom's rumored bid price of $2.5 billion.

So let me ask you this question, does it make sense to pay $1.1 billion more just for tilting, when the faster acceleration rate and the lighter weight of a Tier-III train set would improve cornering and match the travel time of the Acela Express without tilting anyway.

So this whole $2.5 billion Alstom selection rumor sounds fishy to me, especially considering how much the tilt-less rival is cheaper. We are not talking a couple hundred million dollars, but a cool billion dollar cheaper.

But the KTX-II seats 359 people--instead of the 400 to 450 seats in a 200 meter train-set that Amtrak is looking for.

Also, the extra cost includes spare components, training, and I believe track and catenary upgrades as well.

Here is a train-set fact sheet that was just posted: http://nec.amtrak.com/sites/default/files/HSR%20Train%20Set%20Factsheet%20V4.pdf

 

[internationalpirate]

But the KTX-II seats 359 people--instead of the 400 to 450 seats in a 200 meter train-set that Amtrak is looking for.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/korean-president-inaugurates-ktx-honam.html

The new trains have 410 seats compared with 363 on the KTX Sancheon, Hyundai Rotem's previous high-speed train platform.

The 410 seater is a low platform version. The high platform version can add 32 more seats for a total of 442. Seating capacity is not an issue and the usable floor space is exactly the same as that of a modernized TGV that Alstom is pitching.

This is why I find it hard to believe that AMTRAK would forego $1.1 billion in savings for tilting. Even the original Acela was only $800 million(later ballooned to $1.2 billion) and this came with a Canadian government's financing.

 

[Ziv]

ip, is there a difference in the amount of pitch that is acceptable on a Korean train vs. an Amtrak train? Because I have ridden in coach in Asia and they are not nearly as roomy as Amtrak. That having been said, even a 5% reduction in seats (possibly remove one row per car?) to increase the pitch would still keep you at 420 seats per trainset on the high platform version.

But the KTX-II seats 359 people--instead of the 400 to 450 seats in a 200 meter train-set that Amtrak is looking for.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/korean-president-inaugurates-ktx-honam.html

The new trains have 410 seats compared with 363 on the KTX Sancheon, Hyundai Rotem's previous high-speed train platform.

The 410 seater is a low platform version. The high platform version can add 32 more seats for a total of 442. Seating capacity is not an issue and the usable floor space is exactly the same as that of a modernized TGV that Alstom is pitching.

This is why I find it hard to believe that AMTRAK would forego $1.1 billion in savings for tilting. Even the original Acela was only $800 million(later ballooned to $1.2 billion) and this came with a Canadian government's financing.

 

[jis]

However, if Rotem did not participate in the RFP process for whatever reason, this entire discussion is moot. If they did participate it should be easy to find out why their proposal was not chosen. Seeing that they have not chosen to challenge the selection either they are not interested or not capable of meeting the requirements, which would make this discussion of theoretical interest.

 

[Andrew]

However, if Rotem did not participate in the RFP process for whatever reason, this entire discussion is moot. If they did participate it should be easy to find out why their proposal was not chosen. Seeing that they have not chosen to challenge the selection either they are not interested or not capable of meeting the requirements, which would make this discussion of theoretical interest.

It is my understanding that Rotem did participate--but they were not chosen for the new train-sets.

I'm wondering if the new train-sets will look like the TGV's of the 1990's or the modern AGV's...

But I do think this train would look very cool for operation on the Northeast Corridor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_Train_Express#/media/File:KTX.jpg

 

[jis]

Looking cool is not exactly a criterion that is used to select anything. I bet the phrase "looks cool" does no appear anywhere in the RFP

 

[frequentflyer]

Looking cool is not exactly a criterion that is used to select anything. I bet the phrase "looks cool" does no appear anywhere in the RFP

LOL........But it should........LOL

 

[Andrew]

With Amtrak's Northeast Corridor experiencing very healthy ridership growth, why wouldn't Amtrak take out a larger loan in order to buy perhaps 250 meter long train-sets with platform extensions in Washington and Boston?

 

[jis]

With Amtrak's Northeast Corridor experiencing very healthy ridership growth, why wouldn't Amtrak take out a larger loan in order to buy perhaps 250 meter long train-sets with platform extensions in Washington and Boston?

I suggest you write a nice letter to Boardman asking that question. how on earth can anyone here answer that question with any credibility beats me.

 

[Hal]

With Amtrak's Northeast Corridor experiencing very healthy ridership growth, why wouldn't Amtrak take out a larger loan in order to buy perhaps 250 meter long train-sets with platform extensions in Washington and Boston?

You appear to be living in a Reality Distortion Field. We live in the USA. That has to be taken into account.

 

[west point]

Maybe longer trains are in the future. Maybe plan for additional cars added to the middle of train sets.

A look at the final contract would show if that option is included. Maybe even preliminary ?

 

[internationalpirate]

But I do think this train would look very cool for operation on the Northeast Corridor.

That one is out of production, and so is the AGV.

This is why Alstom's bid price is $2.5 billion, because they are trying to restore something out of production for four years(AGV) vs KTX-II which is in full production and is at least $1 billion cheaper because of the volume of scale.

So this whole TGV power car + AGV coach car + tilting bogie frankenstein train set sounds fishy, because of this at least $1 billion in price differences.

 

[internationalpirate]

ip, is there a difference in the amount of pitch that is acceptable on a Korean train vs. an Amtrak train?

The KTX-II's seat pitch is 980 mm. The Acela's seat pitch is 991 mm. That's a difference of about 0.4 inches, and matching Acela's seat pitch would add about 5.6 inches to cabin, so a non-issue.

 

[Ziv]

Thanks for the info, 11 mm is not even a noticeable difference. It sounds like the KTX-II has a lot going for it. Saving a Billion would sure free up a lot of money for other purchases. Korean engineering and quality control might not quite match that of Japan at its former best, but it is pretty darned good.

ip, is there a difference in the amount of pitch that is acceptable on a Korean train vs. an Amtrak train?

The KTX-II's seat pitch is 980 mm. The Acela's seat pitch is 991 mm. That's a difference of about 0.4 inches, and matching Acela's seat pitch would add about 5.6 inches to cabin, so a non-issue.