Acela II RFP information announcement

[andersone]

Woody you are so right about enabling legislators,,,,, we all need to pay heed to the gospel of Edward Tufte - "What is sought in the display of information is the clear portrayal of complexity. Not the complication of the simple but rather the task of the designer is to give visual access to the subtle and the difficult, that is the revelation of the complex."

In a former life I had to go to the legislature every year and defend my agency funding. I never gave them more than one side of one sheet - I wasn't getting paid by the word. I also emphasized the impact our services made on Ma and Pa Kettle, and how we improved the quality of their lives. If you fund this you get that,,, I could rant on about KISS but I am just grateful someone understands the message need not be delivered in volumes.

 

[neroden]

(Perhaps in rare cases one project might fit all three definitions of spending

CREATE / South of the Lake in Chicago, perhaps? Changes which should have been done incrementally during maintenance over the course of 100 years, but weren't, so just to catch up to a state of good repair, we need major new infrastructure? And the improvement from the new infrastructure will bring in enough reduced costs and increased revenues to pay for its maintenance?
The NEC's important and all, but I'm glad Amtrak is making an advocacy push for the Chicago improvements. They could be a game-changer, unlocking the true potential of train service in the Midwest.

 

[frequentflyer]

Just read GE is buying Alstom energy plant division. In the deal GE will work with Alstom in joint ventures in other business such as rail transport. So GE will benefit from this too.

If I was a cynic, I would say GE Amtrak connections has a little to do with too.

 

[Andrew]

It appears as if Amtrak is getting closer to finalizing the vital contract with Alstom! Below is the French and English update--which includes an eight car train-set. Does this include the two locomotives, or are the locomotives extra, so as to make it a 10 unit train-set?

Alstom en discussion avec Amtrak pour 28 rames LGV

Amtrak qui exploite les rames Acela à grande vitesse sur le corridor nord-est des Etats-Unis (Washington-New York-Boston) est en discussion exclusive avec Alstom pour la livraison de 28 rames de 8 voitures dont la commande pourrait être passée d’ici fin 2015. Valeur estimée du contrat: 5,2 milliards USD. Pour ce projet, Alstom a proposé un train combinant plusieurs technologies bien maîtrisées par le constructeur français: une motrice de TGV classique, des voitures de type AGV sans motorisation et un système de pendulation identique à celui utilisé sur les Pendolino produits en Italie toujours par Alstom. Cette combinaison a le mérite d’utiliser des technologies éprouvées par le constructeur, lesquelles s’adaptent parfaitement à la demande d’Amtrak pour ce corridor. Les tractations en cours qui devaient rester secrètes jusqu’à leur finalisation ont été dévoilées par le Sénateur Charles E. Schumer.

Alstom semble d’ores et déjà avoir obtenu une dérogation au Buy American Act qui lui permettrait de construire en France les deux premières rames prototypes de façon à ne pas retarder la mise en production de la série qui s’effectuerait dans son usine située dans l’Etat de New York à Hornell. L’une de ces rames subirait des essais sur l’anneau d’essais de Pueblo tandis que l’autre circulerait sur le corridor Nord-Est.

Alstom qui connaît actuellement de grosses difficultés dans la construction d’une usine de montage en Afrique du Sud dans le cadre du contrat signé en octobre 2013 portant sur la livraison de 600 X’Ttrapolis commandées par Prasa et Gibela, semble en revanche en bonne position pour remporter un contrat de 800 locomotives diesels et électriques en Inde, puisque le constructeur est le moins-disant. Ce contrat, s’il était confirmé, serait quasi exclusivement réalisé en Inde, à Madhepura, à raison de 80 machines par an.

WHICH TRANSLATES TO:

Alstom in discussions with Amtrak for 28 trainsets LGV

Amtrak which operates high-speed Acela trains in the Northeast US Corridor (Washington-New York-Boston) is in exclusive talks with Alstom to deliver 28 trainsets of 8 cars whose control could be shifted from end of 2015. Estimated contract value: USD 5.2 billion. For this project, Alstom proposed a package combining several well-controlled by the French manufacturer technology: a driving classic TGV, the AGV type of cars without engine and an identical tilting system to that used on the Pendolino products in Italy always Alstom . This combination has the advantage of proven technologies used by the manufacturer, which perfectly adapt to the demand for Amtrak corridor. The ongoing negotiations that should remain secret until their completion have been unveiled by Senator Charles E. Schumer.

Alstom seems already to have obtained a derogation from the Buy American Act that would allow it to build in France the first two prototypes oars so as not to delay the start of production of the series that would take place at its plant in State of New York in Hornell. One of these trains would undergo tests on the ring of Pueblo tests while the other would flow on the Northeast Corridor.

Alstom currently experiencing great difficulties in building a South Africa assembly plant under the contract signed in October 2013 for the delivery of 600 X'Ttrapolis controlled by Prasa and Gibela, however seems in good position awarded a contract for 800 diesel and electric locomotives in India, since the manufacturer is the lowest bidder. The contract, if confirmed, would almost exclusively produced in India, Madhepura, at 80 machines per year.

 

[Eric S]

It appears as if Amtrak is getting closer to finalizing the vital contract with Alstom! Below is the French and English update--which includes an eight car train-set. Does this include the two locomotives, or are the locomotives extra, so as to make it a 10 unit train-set?

What is the source for that? When was it released/printed?

 

[jis]

It is kind of neat that India now has major locomotive contracts with EMD, Bombardier and Alstom!

The Acela IIs will probably looks somewhat like the Virgin Pendolinos in the UK or even the ones in Italy, of course scaled up to American loading gauge. Interesting that they talk of AGV cars, which perhaps indicated that they are going for distributed power.

 

[A Voice]

It appears as if Amtrak is getting closer to finalizing the vital contract with Alstom! Below is the French and English update--which includes an eight car train-set. Does this include the two locomotives, or are the locomotives extra, so as to make it a 10 unit train-set?

What is the source for that? When was it released/printed?

Appears to be dated from October 6, 2015.

 

[afigg]

It appears as if Amtrak is getting closer to finalizing the vital contract with Alstom! Below is the French and English update--which includes an eight car train-set. Does this include the two locomotives, or are the locomotives extra, so as to make it a 10 unit train-set?

What is the source for that? When was it released/printed?

The link to the French magazine report was posted on railroad.net. Le Rail report (in French). The auto-translated report is odd because it does not match the 8 car EMU and an existing trainset that Amtrak was seeking in the RFP. Don't know how reliable the news source is or whether the writer got some stuff mixed up. I would not give the French source much weight until there is more information from US sources.

 

[jis]

All that we know for sure is that Alstom has been selected and the tilt technology used will be Pendolinos with which Alstom has a lot of experience.

 

[Andrew]

It appears as if Amtrak is getting closer to finalizing the vital contract with Alstom! Below is the French and English update--which includes an eight car train-set. Does this include the two locomotives, or are the locomotives extra, so as to make it a 10 unit train-set?

What is the source for that? When was it released/printed?

The link to the French magazine report was posted on railroad.net. Le Rail report (in French). The auto-translated report is odd because it does not match the 8 car EMU and an existing trainset that Amtrak was seeking in the RFP. Don't know how reliable the news source is or whether the writer got some stuff mixed up. I would not give the French source much weight until there is more information from US sources.

So the train-set will likely be a total of eight emu's (distributed power) rather than eight coaches with two locomotives (concentrated power)?

Also, I wonder if the billion dollar number was a typo?

 

[Palmetto]

What about tilting on Metro North? Will they be narrow enough?

 

[jis]

Even the current Acelas with their alleged extra width are fine on MNRR. They all run with tilt on on Metro north these days. It was apparently just MNRR blowing smoke and throwing around their lazy weight before FRA got on their case after mutliple mishaps. Surprisingly one fine day Acelas were allowed to tilt after the end of one of the several audits of MNRR safety.

 

[Andrew]

I read that the first two train-sets are expected to be built in France.

What is the delivery and testing schedule of the future train-sets?

 

[PerRock]

I read that the first two train-sets are expected to be built in France.

What is the delivery and testing schedule of the future train-sets?

No one knows, I don't even think anyone at Alstom has any idea. The contract hasn't even been finalized yet. Esentially the following need to happen, and no we don't know when these will happen.

1) Contract finalized and signed.

2) Payment made (according to contract)

3) Design begins

4) Engineering stuff tested

5) Design approved

6) Construction of initial 2 units begin construction in France

7) Units tested in France

8) Changes made to units

9) Rinse, repeat

10) Units shipped to US

11) Units tested in US

12) Units fixed in US

13) Production begins on rest of fleet in US

14) 1st 2 units enter training phase

etc

etc

etc

Needless to say, you're not going to know any sort of timetable as to when anything with these are going to happen until the timetable is "now."

peter

 

[WoodyinNYC]

What is the delivery and testing schedule of the future train-sets?

...

Needless to say, you're not going to know any sort of timetable as to when anything with these are going to happen until the timetable is "now."

peter

The template or model for the timetable for Alstom building and delivering the Acela IIs will be based on the timetable we have seen for CAF building and deliveries of the Viewliner IIs. So when they do announce a timetable, add three years, or more.

This is going to be very hard on you Andrew, but you can handle it better if you don't get your hopes up and become impatient with the timetable. Add three years to whatever dates are announced and chill.

 

[frequentflyer]

Or they may be Americanized AGVs. If Alstom gets this, GE will be a part of this contract someway or some how. Considering GE's long relationship with Amtrak, should not be surprised.

 

[jis]

It will not be a simple Americanized AGVs. the tilt system will be the Pendolino Fiat system. The car bodies will most likely be that of AGVs. have not heard any specifics of the drive system yet. Not clear how GE will be involved in any big way. GE has zero experience with high speed rail drive systems, and is not involved in any of the possible currently used systems, which appears to be a requirement of the RFP.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

It appears as if Amtrak is getting closer to finalizing the vital contract with Alstom!

What is the source for that? When was it released/printed?

The link to the French magazine report was posted on railroad.net. Le Rail report (in French). The auto-translated report is odd ... Don't know how reliable the news source is or whether the writer got some stuff mixed up. I would not give the French source much weight until there is more information from US sources.

...

Also, I wonder if the billion dollar number was a typo?

Not sure we know a damn thing more than before. If the French report is dated Oct 6, then it is based on the Schumer press release and photo op about that time, which Amtrak quietly (not for attribution) walked back.

Right, Andrew. I'm sure the $5.4 Billion is a typo or currency translation error or an error of another sort. iirc The Schumer release suggested around $2.5 Billion for the bid (no details if this included spare parts, maintenance assistance, or anything else).

Anyway, the bid figure was in the ballpark with previous guesstimates or leaks (up to $2.7 B) for the Acela IIs.

If the bid had come in at twice that amount, Amtrak would have to start over with new specs, new RFI, new RFP, everything. The explosion would have been heard across the Atlantic.

But no noise strongly suggests that the bid is in the area that Amtrak was planning for.

 

[jis]

AFAICT Amtrak has never denied that Alstom has been selected. All that they have said is that details are yet to be negotiated.

From what I heard last weekend from people in the know is that indeed Alstom has been selected and indeed they will be tilting trains using the Pendolino/Fiat tilt technology and also using asynchronous AC drive. Haven't heard anything beyond that.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

AFAICT Amtrak has never denied that Alstom has been selected. All that they have said is that details are yet to be negotiated.

I don't recall seeing a single word about it attributed to any named person at Amtrak. But wasn't it Trains Magazine that reported its Amtrak sources saying it wasn't quite a done deal, but with no attribution to any specific source. So I said, "Amtrak quietly (not for attribution) walked back"

Meanwhile I recall seeing a reference to article or two in Upstate papers saying it looked more and more like Alstom, according to a local official who was quoted in a way that made me wonder if he'd perhaps been over-served. LOL.

Anyway, we agree that officially Amtrak has said nothing at all.

 

[jis]

I did hear some private grumbling from a few about Schumer stealing their thunder.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Nothing official has been said about the awarding of an Acela II contract, as far as I know. This is all speculation, AU's favorite topic.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Letter to the Editor

• Alstom-Amtrak Letter: It's not over til it's over
• Posted Oct. 20, 2015
  
  
  While a lot of what is being said is presumption, prior to all of the ancillary issues being resolved, on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the highest, the matter stands at about 7 or 8. I believe the director of Amtrak is saying that, yes, other bids could be considered, as The Evening Tribune stated in its article.
  The truth of the matter is Amtrak has chosen Alstom as the primary entity to continue negotiations with over the myriad issues connected with the contract, such as "Buy American" requirements, approval to operate at high speeds in the corridor and requirements from the Federal Railroad Administration who will be footing some of the bill for the project.The subject of the Alstom Manufacturing facility obtaining the Acela contract ... everyone, both politicians and others, want to weigh in on whether Alstom will actually get it and when.
  Remember the words of our great orator, "Yogi."When it is clear that all of the ancillary issues have been worked out and the contract has finally been signed by Alstom, Amtrak and others, the City of Hornell Industrial Development Agency, which has played a significant role and spent an inordinate amount of time in the planning process, along with Mayor Shawn Hogan and Alstom will be the first to announce and celebrate the great victory for Alstom and the residents of Hornell and New York State.
  Samuel J. Nasca Chairperson, City of Hornell IDA (Industrial Development Agency)
  

 

[jis]

It is actually more than speculation, considering the people that I heard it from. But please feel free to believe whatever you are comfortable with. I will not say it is anything beyond hearsay since I cannot quote any real sources.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Sorry, technical difficulties as I tried to cut and paste.

Here's the link:

http://www.eveningtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=%2F20151020%2FOPINION%2F151029992

"The truth of the matter is Amtrak has chosen Alstom as the primary entity to continue negotiations with over the myriad issues connected with the contract ..."

That seems to be the nugget herein.

It does seem that the Chair of Hornell's Industrial Development Agency has as much trouble keeping his mouth shut as Senator Schumer. But he is a second source essentially confirming that the contract now is Alstom's to lose. I'm sure Alstom really, really doesn't want to lose this flagship contract that is almost within its grasp. So I'm with Mr Nasca, seeing the odds at 7 or 8 out of 10 that Alstom will get it.