Adirondack June '23 cancellation, and September restoration, state of Upstate NY service

[Amtrak25]

Hopefully they would build it with high platforms and platform canopies like Niagara Falls, NY. It's a lot easier with high platforms than on the low ones on the Ontario side.

Need gauntlet track or huge threshold plates to be tossed out. There are freight trains and just one track, generally CN handing over NS trains to CP and vice versa, I think 3 a week.

If moved to the CP, there is that old, historic, protected Lacolle station building up the track a couple of miles, but I doubt it will be repurposed back to its former use. Customs and Border people do not want to leave their highway palace. CBSA resents their trailer on the Canadian side of the tracks as it is. They are all going to play their 9/11 imperious theatre card, and power trips as long as politicians allow them to.

 

[zephyr17]

Serious we can just pave an access road to the checkpoint and call it a neutral zone so everyone can carry their weapons and access the single border check stations.

There is no such thing as a neutral zone. Every inch of ground is either under American or Canadian sovereignty. Neither would renounce it as under what authority would laws be enforced if no one had sovereignty?

The new Preclearance treaty creates rail Preclearance rights the same as for air, so US CBP agents could carry firearms in a US Preclearance secure area.

Further, like the Preclearance agreement for air travel, the right to do Preclearance is reciprocal. Canada has the right to perform Preclearance on US soil just as the US does on Canadian soil. Canada just never exercised those rights.

A joint facility would not have to be on "neutral territory". It could be on either side of the border through exercise of Preclearance rights.

 

[zephyr17]

Actually the plan/vision was to move the Canadian C&I to Niagara Falls NY too. Space was set aside for it, but it has not happened yet.

Wish they would. The NY facility is much better than the one on the Ontario side.

 

[zephyr17]

Need gauntlet track or huge threshold plates to be tossed out. There are freight trains and just one track, generally CN handing over NS trains to CP and vice versa, I think 3 a week.

If a joint facility exercising Preclearance rights would be on the US side, current interpretation of the ADA would require level boarding on new platforms, at least where equipment with different boarding heights isn't being used. Which would require a gauntlet or threshold plates to maintain clearances, as you point out.

Don't know if Canada has equivalent requirements.

If a border facility was built, it would make the most sense to just build one, since both sides have Preclearance rights now. Of course, often sense does not enter into it, since the most logical option for Montreal service would be a joint one at Gare Central like Vancouver. But it seems like EXO and Quebec have zero interest.

 

[jiml]

Neither side is going to build anything for one train a day each way.

 

[zephyr17]

Neither side is going to build anything for one train a day each way.

@Amtrak25 in post #46 cites a source that there is at least some interest in doing so.

They did build a new one at Niagara Falls, NY for one train a day that has fewer border crossers.

 

[jis]

Neither side is going to build anything for one train a day each way.

Amtrak can use IIJA funding to build a facility at Rouse's Point like the one in Niagara Falls NY. The argument against it is that it won't be able to serve a potential train from Vermont.

The ideal location for a facility is unfortunately in Canada given the lay of the tracks, where nothing can be funded out of US IIJA, and Canadian are even more dysfunctional than the US, if that were possible.

If I had my druthers, I would do the following:

1. Build a C&I facility to house both US CBP and and CBSA at or near the heritage Lacolle CP Station.

2. Connect the tracks from Vermont to the CP route by building a short segment of track on the existing ROW from CP Cantic on CN to CP Lacolle on CP so that trains from Vermont can gain access to the CP Lacolle station.

3. Have the Amtrak trains serve Lucien L'Allier and serviced by Exo in Montreal at their yard that serves Lucien L'Allier.

Can this be achieved given political realities? Probably not. But if one believes that CN will progressively let its connection from CP Cantic to Montreal go to pot, then this would be the only choice. But since both requires funding from the dysfunctional Canadian system the future is bleak.

 

[jiml]

The plans for Niagara Falls were (and still might be) much greater and it was easy to incorporate the clearance operation into a station rebuild that had been long overdue. The failure of Canada to "get onboard" is entirely on them.

The easiest solution to restoring the Adirondack - even if temporarily - would be to work with CP and EXO to use Lucien L'allier. Do both US preclearance and Canadian arrivals on the train in the station with the doors sealed. Both US and Canadian officers are at Dorval - a short drive or commuter train ride away. This would provide a similar experience to Vancouver at minimal cost. (Niagara Falls has the benefit of CBP and CBSA already on-site.)

 

[Amtrak25]

I don't think EXO would want Amtrak lingering in the depot for 2 hours while security theatre goes on. For train 68, that would impact EXO's AM rush hour.

 

[jiml]

I don't think EXO would want Amtrak lingering in the depot for 2 hours while security theatre goes on. For train 68, that would impact EXO's AM rush hour.

There's not as many trains as you would think. They would also gain the space occupied by the Adirondack at Gare Centrale, where they have more. If the solution became permanent Track 1 and Track 6 could be put back into service.

 

[jis]

There's not as many trains as you would think. They would also gain the space occupied by the Adirondack at Gare Centrale, where they have more. If the solution became permanent Track 1 and Track 6 could be put back into service.

The one time when Amtrak considered Lucien L'Allier, AFAIR it involved Track 1 being used for Amtrak, but I could be recollecting wrong.

 

[jiml]

The one time when Amtrak considered Lucien L'Allier, AFAIR it involved Track 1 being used for Amtrak, but I could be recollecting wrong.

It has been a couple of years since I was there, so can't recall which direction the numbers run. One of the outer tracks was obviously not in use and the opposite side was in disrepair, and might have been partly pulled up. EXO was using 3, 4 and 5 at the time.

 

[west point]

It might be less costly to use CP to Montreal .Then build a connections in SE corner where CP passes over the 4 track main. But no one is interested to provide funds.

 

[Amtrak25]

The only freight-only trackage that would be encountered is Rouses Pt - Candiac. I believe EXO controls the line east of Montreal West. I did ride that service to St Constant to visit Exporail in 2015. There was jointed rail on the south shore, but they go about 60 on it, and was quite smooth.

 

[glensfallsse]

One station that deserves to be a part of the discussion is Saratoga Springs. A significant number of riders use Amtrak during the summer horse racing meet. I've been at the station when it took 10 minutes to offload all the passengers. Without the Adirondack, the Ethan Allen will be the only option.

 

[Exvalley]

Amtrak has suspended service north of Albany. It's depressing that we don't have the proper infrastructure to run a train between the largest city in the United States and the second largest city in Canada.

https://www.mynbc5.com/article/amtrak-suspend-adirondack-rail-line-montreal-new-york/44345995

 

[zephyr17]

FWIW, Amtrak shows the service bookable to Montreal again on Saturday, July 1 and from Montreal on Sunday, July 2.

Of course, we all watched a bunch of phantom dates for the restart of the various Canada services come and go in the reservations system during/after COVID before they actually restarted, so that may not be indicative of anything real.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Sent a email to my Congresswoman Stefanik here in NY-21. Would be interesting to see her (her staff’s) response. It’s a state funded route, operated by a federal agency (kind of).

 

[Bob Dylan]

Sent a email to my Congresswoman Stefanik here in NY-21. Would be interesting to see her (her staff’s) response. It’s a state funded route, operated by a federal agency (kind of).

Shouldn't Senators Schumer and Gillibrand and your Guv( and maybe Mayor Pete) be on top of this???

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

One station that deserves to be a part of the discussion is Saratoga Springs. A significant number of riders use Amtrak during the summer horse racing meet. I've been at the station when it took 10 minutes to offload all the passengers. Without the Adirondack, the Ethan Allen will be the only option.

There no real reason why we can’t run a train north, and stop short of the border. I mean we have a full thread about how Amtrak use two engines on the Ethan Allen.

 

[Amtrak25]

There no real reason why we can’t run a train north, and stop short of the border. I mean we have a full thread about how Amtrak use two engines on the Ethan Allen.

Ridership beyond Saratoga is not much except for Montreal. Without that it wouldn't fill a bus.

North of Albany-Ren, Schnectady & Saratoga is 25%, and and Montreal is 56% , so 81% of it all is those three. Without Montreal, the train is pointless north of Saratoga.

 

[Amtrak25]

FWIW, Amtrak shows the service bookable to Montreal again on Saturday, July 1 and from Montreal on Sunday, July 2.

Of course, we all watched a bunch of phantom dates for thr restart of the various Canada services come and go in the reservations system during/after COVID before they actually restarted, so that may not be indicative of anything real.

For a while on Friday, it showed July 1 and 2 as "sold out" as opposed to cancelled. I suppose that is when they were rebooking everyone without interference. Then it showed bookable at a very high $102 fare in July 1 with an occupancy rate at 100%.

I think politics and negotiations among Amtrak, CN, Stefonik and Gillibrand will determine everything by Friday. (I don't trust Schumer to dirty his hands with anything off the NEC). It was 91degrees on Thursday and that was the extent of the heatwave. Trains were stopped and running 10MPH south and east of Brossard and west of St Jean. Maybe CN was out looking for track kinks. 68 came down just fine on Friday. Whether this was a panic move by CN or not, or whether they are just being difficult in general as they are with Jonquire/Senneterre VIA trains, we shall see.

 

[T. DeSantis]

Seem to recall CN abandon a bridge that Amtrak is now responsible for maintaining and may own the bridge. The route of the Maple Leaf. Of course a bridge over a river is so much cheaper than track. (Sarcasm on.)

Can’t spend NY taxes on project over the state line, guess we can’t spend Amtraks fund over the US border either. At least the bridge had a some of it located in the US. The other end in Canada.

The Whirlpool-Rapids Bridge is owned by the Niagara Falls Bridge Commission. It is a Bi-level bridge with autos using the lower deck and rail on the upper deck. CN abandoned its right to operate over the bridge and Amtrak assumed ownership of the r-o-w through the US International Railway Station. Amtrak is responsible for the track. New agreements with the Bridge Commission (and Via Rail) to operate over the upper deck. Freight no longer uses this bridge crossing to/from Canada. However, Via Rail's Maple Leaf service to/from Toronto's Union Station primarily use CN-owned tracks.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Ridership beyond Saratoga is not much except for Montreal. Without that it wouldn't fill a bus.

North of Albany-Ren, Schnectady & Saratoga is 25%, and and Montreal is 56% , so 81% of it all is those three. Without Montreal, the train is pointless north of Saratoga.

The upstate is a part of New York, we too deserve a train service. Yes once a day is sad, but western NY has only 4 trains a day with a much greater population base. Push comes to shove I will take an Amtrak bus, but let’s not treat the people of the North-Way as undeservedly of train service payed by the state taxpayers. We taxpayers pay for a lot of trains for those who live downstate.

 

[Henry Kisor]

My wife, service dog and I are ticketed Toronto-Albany and Albany-Chicago in late October. Presumably the "sun kinks" will be gone by then.