Adirondack June '23 cancellation, and September restoration, state of Upstate NY service

[Anderson]

I'd note that in theory you could have NY/VT pay for something across the border. But I'm also reminded of the various inanities involved in the Long Bridge project and in SEHSR - complications about VA being unable to own or do projects outside of the state borders, so having to do odd wrangling with NC (for the Richmond-Raleigh project) or, more frustratingly, being unable to just cut DDOT out of Long Bridge and make that a VA/Federal only project (and instead getting an extra oar stuck in).

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

My wife, service dog and I are ticketed Toronto-Albany and Albany-Chicago in late October. Presumably the "sun kinks" will be gone by then.

Can’t be sure of what, if anything is going to happen to the Maple Leaf, but no, “the excuse of heat kinks” is not very valid that late in the fall. Leafs on the track may cause you issues. “Slipping and spins of rail cars wheels.”

Luckily this issue is limited to the Adirondack Train between NYP via Albany via Montreal. No impact to the Maple Leaf the train your taken.

 

[Urban Sky]

Amtrak has suspended service north of Albany. It's depressing that we don't have the proper infrastructure to run a train between the largest city in the United States and the second largest city in Canada.

https://www.mynbc5.com/article/amtrak-suspend-adirondack-rail-line-montreal-new-york/44345995

Just to highlight that heat-related slow orders imposed by CN are not exclusively targeting Amtrak: They‘ve forced VIA to operate their Northern Quebec services overnight during heat waves throughout the last few summers…
https://groups.io/g/Canadian-Passenger-Rail/topic/83797439

 

[Amtrak25]

Just to highlight that heat-related slow orders imposed by CN are not exclusively targeting Amtrak: They‘ve forced VIA to operate their Northern Quebec services overnight during heat waved throughout the last few summers…
https://groups.io/g/Canadian-Passenger-Rail/topic/83797439

The Corridor trains run 100MPH despite temperatures over 86.

 

[Urban Sky]

The Corridor trains run 100MPH despite temperatures over 86.

It‘s a matter of track maintenance levels, which are naturally much higher along CN‘s transcontinental Halifax-Toronto-Chicago/Buffalo spine than its branches to Northern Quebec or to Plattsburgh Rouse’s Point…

 

[jis]

It‘s a matter of track maintenance levels, which are naturally much higher along CN‘s transcontinental Halifax-Toronto-Chicago/Buffalo spine than its branches to Northern Quebec or to Plattsburgh…

Actually CN is only upto Rouse's Point where it joins CP. They don't go to Plattsburgh. That would be CP and IIRC NS trackage rights. The actual freight active CN in that area is to CN Cantic and then on to St. Albans VT, don't recall where the division post is between CN and the railway in Vermont. The Cantic - Rouses Point is a very slow almost yard trackage and has been that way for quite a while.

 

[Amtrak25]

Rouses Point - Lacolle border station of 2 miles - is 10 - 20 MPH, been that way for 30 years at least. Lacolle - Cantic of 4 miles is 30. Then it is ribbon rail, north of there to St Jean variously at 30 & 49 MPH. The real trouble spot seems to be an area south of Brossard.

 

[west point]

Isn't it strange CN comes up with various passenger train restrictions each different on each route. Axel count cars, Dispatching problems, heat restrictions what is neutral temp? , slow orders on new bridge near NOL.? Certainly appears that some one at CN is very creative? All the 1 mile delays at Bsttlr Creeek? Think of others?

 

[Amtrak25]

There have been plenty of days in the 80's until last Thursday and none of this happened or anything this severe.

They are testing to see if they can politically bully Amtrak as well as they do VIA Rail.

 

[Urban Sky]

Actually CN is only upto Rouse's Point where it joins CP. They don't go to Plattsburgh.

My mistake: I of course meant Rouses Point.

There have been plenty of days in the 80's until last Thursday and none of this happened or anything this severe.

They are testing to see if they can politically bully Amtrak as well as they do VIA Rail.

Without adequate and preventive maintenance, any infrastructure gradually deteriorates until the point where you have to impose slow orders. No need for conspiracy theories, as these temporary speed restrictions affect CN’s own trains just as much as VIA or Amtrak.

Also, they are hardly unique to CN or North America, as this video of the Niš-Dimitrovgrad line (part of the main rail corridor from Western Europe to Turkey!) demonstrates with multiple 10 km/h (8mph) limits along the line, which escalate travel time beyond the 3 hour mark for a very modest 61 miles:

 

[BlackDiamond]

Here is what the track arrangement looks like at the border, from OpenRailwayMap. The yellow line is the CP, the Orange is CN.
The line that exits at lower left is the route of the Adirondack; the line to the lowr right is CN to St. Albans that used to be used by the Montrealer.

 

[Anderson]

Here is what the track arrangement looks like at the border, from OpenRailwayMap. The yellow line is the CP, the Orange is CN.
The line that exits at lower left is the route of the Adirondack; the line to the lowr right is CN to St. Albans that used to be used by the Montrealer.
View attachment 33004

Related note to this: If you zoom in, there's an abandoned segment that could be used to connect a Vermonter/Montrealer service over to the CP line (though you'd need a different connection than the one that exists there to run that smoothly). So moving all services over to ex-Windsor isn't absurd to envision.

Edit: That being said, it's a shame that it isn't viable to restore the line across Lake Champlain to Rouses Point, and avoid this whole mess.

 

[jiml]

I posted this map in another thread where similar concerns were being discussed. It adds some clarity to the one above.

 

[jiml]

From Railpictures.ca, here is a shot of the Amtrak Adirondack at St. Lambert, shortly after the reroute onto CN:



This was also the timeframe of my first trip on this route and one of my last on an Amtrak turbo.

 

[jiml]

Here it is a few years earlier at Gare Windsor (CP, now Lucien L'allier) looking in considerably better shape. The turbos ran for some time on the route, with the large windows being the next best thing to a dome car for the scenery north of Schenectady.



Also credit to Railpictures.ca.

 

[jis]

Here is what the track arrangement looks like at the border, from OpenRailwayMap. The yellow line is the CP, the Orange is CN.
The line that exits at lower left is the route of the Adirondack; the line to the lowr right is CN to St. Albans that used to be used by the Montrealer.
View attachment 33004

The point marked as Jonction Rouses Point on the map is in railway parlance called CN Cantic. There is a board there which says so.

There is a hand thrown switch there which is normally set towards St. Albans. When the Adirondack passes by there the Conductor gets off the train, sets it towards Rouses Point the train crosses the switch and then the Conductor sets the switch back towards St. Albans and then hops on the train to proceed on.

As @Anderson mentioned, there is an existing RoW which extends from the St. Albans line across the CN line all the way to the CP line which connected to CP at what was called CP Lacolle. That could be rebuilt as a track to allow a train from St. Albans to connect onto the CP line.

Interestingly what is called the Lacolle checkpoint is actually only notionally in Lacolle. It is south of CN Cantic, just across the border, whereas the CP Lacolle station is Northwest of CN Cantic.

 

[fdaley]

Here is what the track arrangement looks like at the border, from OpenRailwayMap. The yellow line is the CP, the Orange is CN.
The line that exits at lower left is the route of the Adirondack; the line to the lowr right is CN to St. Albans that used to be used by the Montrealer.
View attachment 33004

Looking at this map, you can really see how much more direct the CP route through Napierville is, in addition to the track being in much better shape. To me, the potential to trim an hour off the schedule by using this route would be a huge plus.

 

[jis]

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A number of posts on VIA Northern Quebec Service which were off topic in this thread have been moved to its own thread in the VIA Forum:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/via-northern-quebec-service.85447/
Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.

 

[Amtrak25]

Mid-morning today, cancellations now extended thru July 10. It had been June 30. I suppose every 10 days, they will do this a few days out until daytime high temperature drop to CN's satisfaction of 55 degrees or so by October.

While the abandoned east-west CN ROW extends over to the CP, I am not certain there was actually a track connection, just a crossing, and may have to condemn the southwest corner of a farm to build a tight curve to connect them.

 

[zephyr17]

I think this could well be the death knell for the Adirondack as we now know it.

A situation where service becomes routinely unreliable every summer is unsustainable. It is slow (though scenic) to begin with, becoming wholly unreliable will drive off what ridership there is.

That is the current situation due to CN's level of maintenance on the line, which they have zero reason to change. Regardless of our opinions on the "heat" issue, which I agree does reek of BS, it is CN's railroad and they determine the level of maintenance and speed restrictions. Amtrak and New York State can like it or lump it, they have zero leverage north of the border.

Something must be done or the Adirondack is dead. The province of Quebec seems wholly uninterested, as does the Canadian Federal Government. The only options I realistically see are:
- New York State somehow gets around restrictions about spending money in Canada and pays CN for some rehabbing of the line and perhaps ongoing maintenance to a level that is needed to support reliable operation of the Adirondack, which is greater than CN's own needs for the line. I do not rule out that this might be CN's game plan, either get someone else to pay for improvements or be rid of the train. They'd be happy either way, but probably happier if it were gone. As I have said before, Washington managed to fund BNSF capital improvements in BC for the Cascades, so it is at least conceivable.
- Shift to CP and Lucien L'Allier. I personally do not think moving to Lucien L'Allier is a deal breaker, and the consensus here seems to be it's doable. However, CP needs to be willing to take it. What has not really been discussed here would be whether CP would be willing. CP seems pretty allergic to passenger operations in Canada. Amtrak doesn't have the legal right to force it as they ultimately do in the US. Canada does not seem to have the legal framework to force it. CP might be willing to go along to maintain good relations with Amtrak in the US in the bigger picture, but who knows? They also have the ability to tell Amtrak to go pound sand and make it stick, too.

At this point I am not optimistic. I was a bit surprised when the Adirondack returned due to the track maintenance issue. The fact it turned into a real problem 3 months after resumption is a very bad omen. To anyone who has not ridden it and wants to (I personally recommend it), do it when it becomes unsuspended, if you can. Myself, I don't give it more than a 50/50 chance of survival and that's being generous.

 

[jiml]

The situation is not unlike many current societal problems with recency bias. It is possible that no one currently at Amtrak was around when the train ran entirely on CP. The Adirondack was moved to Gare Centrale for several reasons, including connections that no longer exist, VIA in-station handling and overnight maintenance. The last time I witnessed an Adirondack departure from Montreal (2019) the Amtrak conductor was at the top of the escalator checking tickets, accompanied by a "rental" security guard, with no VIA employees in sight. So I guess that leaves the maintenance issue. Someone has to turn, clean and fuel the train. Montreal's EXO commuter agency maintain a significant fleet of equipment that serves Lucien L'allier from a nearby yard. Who knows if they would take payment to maintain another train? Who, other than a bunch of interested railfains, is going to ask the question? The same goes for CP, although they are publicly on the record as receptive to additional passenger service. How that would translate in this case is anyone's guess.

 

[Amtrak25]

Last Friday, 64 was cancelled from Toronto to Albany with mechanical problems. I don't know where it broke down on the way up. About a month ago, a Montreal departure was cancelled after having trouble heading north the day before. In the 1980's, a VIA F40 would take either of the trains to Albany. No more. Now they likely deadhead the equipment back on the next day's trains and tell everyone to go home or go back to your hotel or to your Uncle Claude.

The don't fuel in Canada. It is too expensive in Canada. That’s one reason why the dual-mode does not run through. Starts off in Albany with a full tank.

Pump the toilets, water the cars, clean the trash, unclog the toilets, change an air hose, a brake shoe would have to be done by EXO. I assume they could handle that. For anything more severe they could taxi a VIA maintenance crew to Montreal West who knows Amtrak equipment. The trucks on the EXO 700-series cars (their version of the Bombardier Comet-II) are similar to Amfleet. EXO maintance people have no experience with Genesis locos.

Amtrak crews would need to be qualified only as far as Candiac. Worst comes to worst from there to Lucien L'Aliier, an EXO crew could provide a pilot.

This is like telling Amtrak to run to Hoboken or Caltrain San Fransisco Terminal. Once they overcome their nervous breakdown and scream no-no-no, can't be done, maybe they could adjust to the new world, or they will have another Sunset Ltd East on their hands.

 

[fdaley]

Who knows if they would take payment to maintain another train? Who, other than a bunch of interested railfains, is going to ask the question? The same goes for CP, although they are publicly on the record as receptive to additional passenger service.

Amtrak supposedly ran a test train to Lucien L'Allier some years ago, so one would hope that someone at Amtrak or NYSDOT still has the contact information for folks at EXO and CP. Unfortunately I suspect no one at Amtrak or NYS will take any initiative unless a public outcry forces their hand. Which might still happen. Even though the population and ridership are somewhat sparse between Saratoga and the border, there's a core group that uses it, and there are a lot of local businesses that see the train as an asset worth preserving. The service restoration in April was loudly celebrated locally.

 

[zephyr17]

Unfortunately I suspect no one at Amtrak or NYS will take any initiative unless a public outcry forces their hand.

Amtrak certainly won't, even with public outcry. If NYS doesn’t take the initiative, nobody will.

 

[west point]

What is interesting that there is no direct connection coming from CP US direction to the CN Montreal subdivision going to Gare centrale. However, it could be done with a back up move of about 9 miles. In that case have a cab unit on each end of train. Conductor qualified as an engineer or extra engineer? Would Canadian rules allow a quick reversal? That might be an hour or more less Canadian enroute time compared to CN.