Airo - Amfleet I replacement Siemens Inter City Trainsets (ICT) (2021 - 1Q 2024)

[jis]

Because I'd prefer them to put more lines under wire and have a split fleet. Yes there are routes were bi modes will work well but others where if the state DOT would stop being clowns they could easily run the whole thing under wire.

The fly in the ointment of that logic are many:

(1) Most State DOTs are not going to stop being clowns just because we think they should.

(2) Additionally the host railroads also have to stop being opposed to electrification of their tracks, unless paid a King's ransom. A large proportion of the proposed new service is slated to operate on host railroad owned trackage, specially as it applies to extension from the NEC spine.

(3) Cost of electrification in this country, which is literally out of this world, has to somehow be brought down to address the argument used by the purveyors of (1) and to some extent (2)

Noticeably Amtrak has little control over any of those factors all by itself. Ergo the quickest way in which Amtrak can improve the customer experience is by going for dual modes. This is not the first time this has happened. UK facing mostly problem (3) has followed the dual mode route, and good thing they did too since it made it possible to introduce uniform MU based service much faster than if they had to wait for completion of electrification all across Great Western territory. In the US NJTransit has followed the same course.

So while ideally I'd like to see quicker and further spread of electrification, realistically in the context of service extensions from the NEC spine IMHO it is better to go with dual mode for the time being.

 

[John Bredin]

Good luck, we can barely get these state DOTs to support the trains they currently fund, let alone running more. [Snip.] Amtrak can’t force them to electrify.

Generally true, especially the can't force electrification part.

Why has it taken WisDOT and IDOT to run a measly 3 more Hiawatha’s?

NIMBYs, mostly in the area from Glenview to Lake Forest, who claim they're not against improved Amtrak service but the additional freight trains that lengthened sidings would allow. Just this once, it ain't Wisconsin's fault. In fact, WisDOT has said they'll do their share of the track improvements to get additional Hiawathas running.

 

[jis]

https://www.post-gazette.com/busine...dustrial/stories/202301100070?mibextid=Zxz2cZ

 

[PaTrainFan]

https://www.post-gazette.com/busine...dustrial/stories/202301100070?mibextid=Zxz2cZ

It will be interesting to see if the incumbent congressman who represents this district and is anti Amtrak changes his tune. Also, not surpringly, he voted against the infrastructure act.

 

[Bob Dylan]

It will be interesting to see if the incumbent congressman who represents this district and is anti Amtrak changes his tune. Also, not surpringly, he voted against the infrastructure act.

But he'll take Credit for it!, Politicians have no Shame!

 

[PaTrainFan]

But he'll take Credit for it!, Politicians have no Shame!

This guy would. Believe me.

 

[John819]

This guy would. Believe me.

Of course, after voting against it.

 

[frequentflyer]

I thought the Siemens cars were semi permanently coupled together. Saw on a St. Louis Railcam one of the Lincoln service trains had an Amfleet interspersed between the Siemen cars. Beyond being and odd looking train, I thought the Siemen cars were sets.

 

[GDRRiley]

I thought the Siemens cars were semi permanently coupled together. Saw on a St. Louis Railcam one of the Lincoln service trains had an Amfleet interspersed between the Siemen cars. Beyond being and odd looking train, I thought the Siemen cars were sets.

Nope the Venture cars can be ordered or configured a number of ways, from singles to pairs to sets with the ability to break apart semi fixed cars in about 30 mins.

 

[Mailliw]

The Midwest order is a mixture of individual coaches and married pairs of cafe & business class cars.

 

[jis]

But Airos, which is the topic of this thread, will be semi-permanently coupled using drawbars. There will be H couplers only at the two ends of the consists.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Based on the Airo order including a power car/APV connected to the locomotive, would it be safe to infer that Siemens would be able to turn the Venture cars into an EMU trainset pretty easily if they were asked? Or are there a bunch of components on the loco that are required for traction power that are not on the coupled AVP that would make an EMU version very challenging? I ask because it strikes me as a great commuter rail car design if you could make it an EMU rather than locomotive hauled.

 

[jis]

Based on the Airo order including a power car/APV connected to the locomotive, would it be safe to infer that Siemens would be able to turn the Venture cars into an EMU trainset pretty easily if they were asked? Or are there a bunch of components on the loco that are required for traction power that are not on the coupled AVP that would make an EMU version very challenging? I ask because it strikes me as a great commuter rail car design if you could make it an EMU rather than locomotive hauled.

It should be quite easy to create an EMU using Venture shells. It is very similar to how India (CLW) has produced those 16 car articulated EMU sets for Vande Bharat Express using Alstom/LHB shells and running gear.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

It is is likely quite to create an EMU using Venture shells. It is very similar to how India (CLW) has produced those 16 car articulated EMU sets for Vande Bharat Express using Alstom/LHB shells and running gear.

Did you mean to say quite easy?

Intriguing... But we could just buy EMU's I suppose.

 

[jis]

Did you mean to say quite easy?

Intriguing... But we could just buy EMU's I suppose.

Yes. “Quite easy”. The Airos could be fully distributed power if that is what the wanted, though that would require a different architecture for the diesel part of the dual mode. More akin to something like the Class 8xx in the UK than one giant prime mover at one end.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Yes. “Quite likely”. The Airos could be fully distributed power if that is what the wanted, though that would require a different architecture for the diesel part of the dual mode. More akin to something like the Class 8xx in the UK than one giant prime mover at one end.

Would it ever make sense to have an DEMU where it could use overhead catenary power when in electric territory like a normal emu, but when in diesel territory it would use a prime mover + alternator (but no motors or anything else), to provide power to the EMU car motors throughout the train cars, vs just having a standard locomotive? Would that help reduce the weight of the prime mover car, or is this way of thinking pointless to a degree?

I ask because I assume 1 larger prime mover (ie the 4400hp Cummings) is more efficient than having numerous smaller engines throughout the train (both in fuel burn and maintenance cost). I would also hope this ‘prime mover car’ would weigh a lot less than a standard Siemens charger, but provide the benefits of superior acceleration vs a standard loco hauled train because of it using distributed power when in diesel territory. It would also reduce wear and tear on the tracks quite a bit compared to a charger or ALP45DP.

 

[jis]

Would it ever make sense to have an DEMU where it could use overhead catenary power when in electric territory like a normal emu, but when in diesel territory it would use a prime mover + alternator (but no motors or anything else), to provide power to the EMU car motors throughout the train cars, vs just having a standard locomotive? Would that help reduce the weight of the prime mover car, or is this way of thinking pointless to a degree?

I ask because I assume 1 larger prime mover (ie the 4400hp Cummings) is more efficient than having numerous smaller engines throughout the train (both in fuel burn and maintenance cost). I would also hope this ‘prime mover car’ would weigh a lot less than a standard Siemens charger, but provide the benefits of superior acceleration vs a standard loco hauled train because of it using distributed power when in diesel territory. It would also reduce wear and tear on the tracks quite a bit compared to a charger or ALP45DP.

You can do whatever you want. One of the more widely deployed dual mode distributed power units tend to have the prime movers distributed too. But it is just the way things like UK Class 8xx are architected. Someone else can architect theirs differently of course.

As an example of the other way.... Spain for the longest time has had a single prime mover in the dual mode Talgos. If you recall one of the derailments due to over speed on a curve was caused by the prime mover having higher Center of Gravity thatn the rest of the train and flipping over and pulling the rest of the train off the track with it.

At the end of the day it will be whatever the vendors agree to build and deliver as that is how the Amtrak RFI/RFP process is set up now.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

You can do whatever you want. One of the more widely deployed dual mode distributed power units tend to have the prime movers distributed too. But it is just the way things like UK Class 8xx are architected. Someone else can architect theirs differently of course.

As an example of the other way.... Spain for the longest time has had a single prime mover in the dual mode Talgos. If you recall one of the derailments due to over speed on a curve was caused by the prime mover having higher Center of Gravity thatn the rest of the train and flipping over and pulling the rest of the train off the track with it.

At the end of the day it will be whatever the vendors agree to build and deliver as that is how the Amtrak RFI/RFP process is set up now.

I wonder how much the weight of carrying diesel would affect all of this as well?

 

[Mailliw]

Will the Airo trainsets have any provisions for oversized luggage (eg bikes, walkers, etc)? I know baggage cars or bag-coachs aren't part of the order, but that doesn't rule out a small baggage compartment in the food service car or one of the coaches.

 

[GDRRiley]

I wonder how much the weight of carrying diesel would affect all of this as well?

It hurt performance for sure. even heavy EMUs with average power can out perform diesel trains or most bi modes

 

[GDRRiley]

Based on the Airo order including a power car/APV connected to the locomotive, would it be safe to infer that Siemens would be able to turn the Venture cars into an EMU trainset pretty easily if they were asked? Or are there a bunch of components on the loco that are required for traction power that are not on the coupled AVP that would make an EMU version very challenging? I ask because it strikes me as a great commuter rail car design if you could make it an EMU rather than locomotive hauled.

Given they are making a powered truck that works under the Airos they could make an EMU if someone wanted it. Siemens though is super big on standazation with a few customization. I suspect to get them to make a fleet of EMUs you'd need a large order.

 

[frequentflyer]

But Airos, which is the topic of this thread, will be semi-permanently coupled using drawbars. There will be H couplers only at the two ends of the consists.

So the Venture cars are not similar to the Airo?

 

[GDRRiley]

So the Venture cars are not similar to the Airo?

Airos are venture cars. Airo is amtraks branding for them

 

[jis]

So the Venture cars are not similar to the Airo?

Venture is the name of the car shell + running gear combo. A Venture car can be configured internally whichever way the customer wants. It is currently restricted to only day car configurations. They can also be configured either as standalone cars with H Couplers at both end and easily detachable gangways, or they can be configured as semi permanently coupled with wider and more level gangways. Brightline, California, VIA, and Amtrak in Airo (most of the order) have opted for the semi-permanently coupled option. Midwest has a mix of semi-permanently coupled pairs and individual cars.

 

[frequentflyer]

Venture is the name of the car shell + running gear combo. A Venture car can be configured internally wichever way the customer wants. It is currently restricted to only day car configurations. They can also be configured either as standalone cars with H Couplers at both and and easily detachable gangways, or they can be configured as semi permanently coupled with wider and more level gangways. Birghtline, California, VIA, and Amtrak in Airo (most of the order) have opted for the semi-permanently coupled option. Midwest has a mix of semi-permanently coupled pairs and individual cars.

That last part must be, because I saw a Midwest west amfleet and Venture every other car train. Bizare consist. Thank you for the clarification.