Airo - Amfleet I replacement Siemens Inter City Trainsets (ICT) (2021 - 1Q 2024)

[cirdan]

I have to say this: I love the term "infancy failures."

And that the title of the presentation is "Apprenticeship Program John Defrancesco".

 

[railiner]

The train could use the 3rd rail from NY Penn all the way up to Croton–Harmon and switch to diesel at that point

The last time I checked, there was no third rail from Penn Station to Spuyten Duyvil, nor catenary very far beyond the Empire tunnel…
The third rail in Penn Station is only on the tracks used by the LIRR, and is the LIRR style,
not the MN style…

 

[west point]

IMO it only makes sense to install 25 Kv 60 Hz shortly out of NYP then up the west side line past the intersection of the west side line and MNRR Hudson line. Maybe 12.5 Kv although not the most operationally desireable. Then use the new ICTs to Albany and beyond. If in the future traffic becomes heavy enough or for other reasons CAT can be extended all way to Albany. Once the Hell Gate line's new commuter M-8s come to NYP they could continue up to and then beyond on the Hudson line. Once the M-8s reverse on the Hudson line they will have to ability to go to NYP or GCT.

For M-8s to operate on the Hudson line MTA will have to finance purchase of its share of M-8s that are used. Third rail up the west side line not good long term planning for many reasons. Too many areas to trespass for one reason

 

[BlackDiamond]

There are many things that could be done. But what has been ordered is Airo, so that is what I was discussing.

I realize that this particular train has left the station and Airo is what it is and for the time being we will continue to do the opposite of what most major rail systems in the world are doing fo these types of services, until there is a change in philosophy at some point.

 

[keelhauled]

The last time I checked, there was no third rail from Penn Station to Spuyten Duyvil, nor catenary very far beyond the Empire tunnel…
The third rail in Penn Station is only on the tracks used by the LIRR, and is the LIRR style,
not the MN style…

I thought there was third rail up to where the Empire Connection reaches daylight. If not Amtrak would never have ordered the dual modes in the first place, since they don't use electricity on Metro-North's territory. The locomotives can be equipped with either style pickup shoe, just not at the same time I don't think, since Amtrak ran to GCT a few summers ago.

 

[PVD]

Overrunning 3rd rail to get in from Sunnyside, through the station, and out of the tunnel, diesel the rest of the way. MN is underrunning. Those dual modes are not designed for high-speed running on electric.

 

[Acela150]

An additional 10 trainsets have been ordered today.

 

[jis]

https://media.amtrak.com/2023/08/more-amtrak-airo-trainsets-ordered-to-meet-surging-demand/

 

[Eric S]

I wonder which "version" was ordered?

 

[danasgoodstuff]

https://media.amtrak.com/2023/08/more-amtrak-airo-trainsets-ordered-to-meet-surging-demand/

So 83 total ordered, but surely they will need more than that in the long run?

 

[Bob Dylan]

An additional 10 trainsets have been ordered today.

Shouldn't they order more than that Steve??

 

[Septa9739]

I believe 73 was meant to fully replace the remaining Amfleet I and Comets and maintain status quo. The 10 extra should be for additional service. My guess is either 6 or 8 car catenary sets (maybe a mix). The NEC is badly in need of additional frequencies due to crowding and now that Gateway is happening that is now possible. I don’t think Amtrak is responsible for equipping any all diesel short routes and they seem to have plenty battery sets ordered

 

[west point]

The extra 10 sets could also be split up to allow for longer trains on the NEC. Maybe some rush hour trains could be as much as 14 cars. That would still allow the 8 axel motive power to accelerate the trains fairly well. Or== Hook 2 - 6 car sets back-to-back and those trains would have 16 powered axels.

 

[John Bredin]

I believe 73 was meant to fully replace the remaining Amfleet I and Comets and maintain status quo. The 10 extra should be for additional service. My guess is either 6 or 8 car catenary sets (maybe a mix). The NEC is badly in need of additional frequencies due to crowding and now that Gateway is happening that is now possible. I don’t think Amtrak is responsible for equipping any all diesel short routes and they seem to have plenty battery sets ordered

I agree the 10 additional sets are for expanded service.

As to more diesel Airos, from the list in Amtrak's press release, Downeaster & Cascades are all-diesel and getting Airos. The Cascades have had expansion plans for years, pretty much awaiting new equipment. I wouldn't be surprised if the Downeaster also has plans for more frequencies considering its geographic expansion.

 

[PVD]

The extra 10 sets could also be split up to allow for longer trains on the NEC. Maybe some rush hour trains could be as much as 14 cars. That would still allow the 8 axel motive power to accelerate the trains fairly well. Or== Hook 2 - 6 car sets back-to-back and those trains would have 16 powered axels.

If I recall correctly, the press releases have said the sets can expand to 10 cars.

 

[BlackDiamond]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Downeaster also has plans for more frequencies considering its geographic expansion.

As far as I know, the only expansions are to add a 6th trip which would just run between Brunswick and Wells and could probably be done without needing new equipment. There is also the 2 year pilot program for service between Brunswick and Rockland but that will use RDC equipment supplied and operated by Midcoast Rail, the operator of the branch. Perhaps if the pilot is successful, there might be an extension of one or more Downeasters which might require an additional trainset.

Of course there are various proposals for extensions further North into Maine but at the moment they are still in the blue sky phase. With various groups hell bent on converting any unused rail rights of way to hiking trails, I'm not sure what the future brings and I may not live long enough to see these extensions.

 

[Eric S]

As far as I know, the only expansions are to add a 6th trip which would just run between Brunswick and Wells and could probably be done without needing new equipment. There is also the 2 year pilot program for service between Brunswick and Rockland but that will use RDC equipment supplied and operated by Midcoast Rail, the operator of the branch. Perhaps if the pilot is successful, there might be an extension of one or more Downeasters which might require an additional trainset.

Of course there are various proposals for extensions further North into Maine but at the moment they are still in the blue sky phase. With various groups hell bent on converting any unused rail rights of way to hiking trails, I'm not sure what the future brings and I may not live long enough to see these extensions.

Interesting. Something like an early morning from Wells to Brunswick run and a late night Brunswick back to Wells?

 

[Tlcooper44]

The extra 10 sets could also be split up to allow for longer trains on the NEC. Maybe some rush hour trains could be as much as 14 cars. That would still allow the 8 axel motive power to accelerate the trains fairly well. Or== Hook 2 - 6 car sets back-to-back and those trains would have 16 powered axels.

A 14 car train set would not be accommodated at south station, especially since the platforms have been shortened.

Definitely a short sighted move, but I would advocate for frequency over longer trains any day of the week.

 

[jis]

A 14 car train set would not be accommodated at south station, especially since the platforms have been shortened.

Definitely a short sighted move, but I would advocate for frequency over longer trains any day of the week.

I guess there are a couple of tracks that can take 12 cars, right?

 

[west point]

A 14 car train set would not be accommodated at south station, especially since the platforms have been shortened.

Definitely a short sighted move, but I would advocate for frequency over longer trains any day of the week.

Yes, platform length is a problem, but longer trains can be south of NYP and to Springfield. Mostly Acela's to BOS anyway.
But BOS has the continuing problem of the 39-train limit. As well, the intermittent closures of 1 or 2 tracks for all the bridge replacements on MNRR. That may be finished by 2060.

 

[Jack Davis]

Those steps look exposed to the weather and not very well protected. Ok for Southern California, not good for Chicago.

Are they using a heating system to keep the snow and ice from jamming the system?

It looks like the "Hydraulic" system for the ADA LIFT is ALL IN that 'door' unit. Now that's a piece of engineering! However, I'm thinking of the weight & stress put upon the hinges and the movable tubes that are part of the hydraulics. Kudos to the engineers! Regarding the 'outside steps' ~ Yup, in very cold, icy conditions, they could certainly freeze up & not function right.

 

[PVD]

Properly designed, hydraulics can be used in extreme cold - every day on airplanes, all the control surfaces....

 

[Touchdowntom9]

If I recall correctly, the press releases have said the sets can expand to 10 cars.

Hopefully the dual mode versions have some really powerful motors in the first car, because 10 cars will be a very slow train if hauled by just a 4200HP loco, vs the 8600hp sprinters today. 6 and 8 cars seems much more manageable for the charger

 

[TransitTyrant]

Hopefully the dual mode versions have some really powerful motors in the first car, because 10 cars will be a very slow train if hauled by just a 4200HP loco, vs the 8600hp sprinters today. 6 and 8 cars seems much more manageable for the charger

4200hp is the Chargers power in diesel mode but as of now the electric versions HP is unknown.

 

[jis]

Hopefully the dual mode versions have some really powerful motors in the first car, because 10 cars will be a very slow train if hauled by just a 4200HP loco, vs the 8600hp sprinters today. 6 and 8 cars seems much more manageable for the charger

NJTransit runs 8 MLVs using a single ALP45DP, so it is not as if the train will not move if it has only 4200HP. But it won't be very nippy. I also do not think they will ever go to a ten car set since its usefulness with full utilization may be somewhat limited. It is better to run two 6-8 car trains than one ten car train, unless you are in deamnd situation like in India, in which case 10 cars is a little less than half of what you need in a consist

4200hp is the Chargers power in diesel mode but as of now the electric versions HP is unknown.

My suspicion is that the electric gear will be sized to supply the power that 4 trucks can handle, so the HP could be double that of the diesel mode. But we will know for sure only when they choose to let us know.