Airo - Amfleet I replacement Siemens Inter City Trainsets (ICT) (2021 - 1Q 2024)

[rickycourtney]

Given they are making a powered truck that works under the Airos they could make an EMU if someone wanted it. Siemens though is super big on standazation with a few customization. I suspect to get them to make a fleet of EMUs you'd need a large order.

Most of the major manufacturers (Siemens, Alstom, Stadler) are now big on standardization with a little customization. Bombardier attempted to build a bunch of highly specialized, one-of-kind equipment in the early 2010s. It was a disaster that contributed to the downfall of the company.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Most of the major manufacturers (Siemens, Alstom, Stadler) are now big on standardization with a little customization. Bombardier attempted to build a bunch of highly specialized, one-of-kind equipment in the early 2010s. It was a disaster that contributed to the downfall of the company.

Who were they building that specialized equipment for?

 

[rickycourtney]

Who were they building that specialized equipment for?

In the same period they took on the R179 cars for the New York City Subway, the Fleet of the Future for Bay Area Rapid Transit, the Flexity streetcars for Toronto, the Aventra EMUs for the London Overground and the Twindexx EMUs for Switzerland.

 

[jis]

Slides from NGEC 2023 Annual Meeting:

Amtrak Update on Acquisitions And Capital Programs (PDF)

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Slides from NGEC 2023 Annual Meeting:

Amtrak Update on Acquisitions And Capital Programs (PDF)

I have to say this: I love the term "infancy failures."

 

[Steve4031]

I love the large question mark in the slide for long distant equipment acquisition . . .

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I love the large question mark in the slide for long distant equipment acquisition . . .

Tune in next time, same train time, same train channel?

 

[John Bredin]

What's "shunt augmentation"? I really hope it has something to do with eliminating the need on some lines for deadhead cars to "trip" the crossing gates. Watching the webcams on the lines serving St. Louis, it's heartening to see the new engines and some Venture cars in service but very odd to see corridor trains with two or even three baggage cars. I know there's not that many people with bikes on the trains in the Midwest in February.

 

[Cal]

I love the large question mark in the slide for long distant equipment acquisition . . .

And I love the overlapping wording. Truly, this is such a professional company.

 

[mlanoue]

I love how they included a bullet point for issuing a "successful press release."

 

[Mailliw]

This video is about VIA Rail, but think I feel it's relevant to the Amtrak Airo order as an example of what can be done with Venture Coaches. The cafe cars seem like a logical place for the lifts. The privacy pods are a good idea. Maybe offer version in economy too with they 4 to 6 seats that families or groups could book as a unit?

 

[cocojacoby]

That is impressive I must say. The cup holders look a bit shallow but maybe not. Is VIA not having the same issues with the new Siemen's Chargers as Amtrak is? Why is that?

 

[jis]

That is impressive I must say. The cup holders look a bit shallow but maybe not. Is VIA not having the same issues with the new Siemen's Chargers as Amtrak is? Why is that?

Neither VIA nor Brightline are having the issues that Amtrak is. To be fair the ALC-42s have a different mission from the Regional Chargers, and are therefore likely to have issues related to long distance operation. But if we keep the focus on Regional trains, Brightline and VIA have not had the nosebleed that Amtrak has been going through with the IDOT/Cal ordered equipment. As for why, who knows? I guess one difference is that Brightline and VIA have contracted Siemens to provide maintenance, but I am not sure that correlation implies causation.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

This video is about VIA Rail, but think I feel it's relevant to the Amtrak Airo order as an example of what can be done with Venture Coaches. The cafe cars seem like a logical place for the lifts. The privacy pods are a good idea. Maybe offer version in economy too with they 4 to 6 seats that families or groups could book as a unit?

Very, very nice! Thanks for posting it!

I love the coat rack—I never know what to do with my jacket (I’m too short to reach the overhead rack and put it there or get it down again).

I didn’t see a cafe car? Too short a trip? Or will they do carts?

As an aside, I’m glad Mike kept the enthusiasm but seems to have toned down the bouncy nuttiness—maybe he’s slowing down just a bit as he gets a little older. Or maybe he was just on his best behavior because he was an invited guest.

 

[jiml]

I didn’t see a cafe car? Too short s trip? Or will they do carts?

Carts have been the delivery system of choice on VIA for years. Other than the LD Skyline cafes, the only VIA cafe car I've seen was the specialty LRC one acquired from Amtrak and modified for the International. I believe it is stored. There also used to be a non-dome cafe car that was used on the northern Manitoba routes, but recent reports have shown those with Skylines.

 

[daybeers]

Will the Airo sets have two bathrooms?

I hope they will be more like the new VIA cars then the Midwest ones.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Does anyone else have concerns about a potential downgrade in performance from the new Airo trains based on the specs? (I could also use help understanding the impact of 6 vs 4 powered axles for passenger service).

These Airos should roughly weigh the same as the existing NEC Amfleets, (Charger locomotive weighing ~30 tons > than ACS-64, Ventures are the same as Amfleets) but will be hauled by a 4,400HP Charger (1,100HP per motor) vs the existing ACS 64 with 8,600HP. I know that the passenger car w the pantograph should also have a powered axle, but assuming motor commonality, you get 6,600HP total on Airos.

That strikes me as being a measurably slower train vs the existing NEC fleet, and while it may be less noticable on the 6 car sets, it seems like a regression in service for trains on only electrified tracks (ie NER trains, not the trains headed to Hartford etc).

How should we expect 6 powered axles at 6,600HP total to perform vs a 4 powered axles at 8600HP in performance? I realize the more axles powered helps (which is why EMUs outperform Locos in acceleration etc) but this seems like it wouldn't be an improvement.

The follow up question is if it is reasonable to assume that the charger motors will be 1,100HP max, or is it possible (maybe even likely) that is the prime mover's max output and that these motors will be rated for higher output when powered by overhead catenary? In that case, if you could get each motor to reach 1,400-1,450HP each, then that would create a higher performance trainset based on my understanding.

Just would like to hear other's perspectives on this difference

 

[jis]

We don't even know for sure that the panto car has only two powered axles. Basically we are all busy spitballing based on very inadequate information at present. So for now I'd say your guess is just as good as mine.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

One other question--why wouldnt Amtrak prefer using the MTA DC powered Charger model for their Empire Trains over a brand new concept battery powered train? The train could use the 3rd rail from NY Penn all the way up to Croton–Harmon and switch to diesel at that point rather than using a battery pack, which seems very unproven and not as logical

 

[jis]

One other question--why wouldnt Amtrak prefer using the MTA DC powered Charger model for their Empire Trains over a brand new concept battery powered train? The train could use the 3rd rail from NY Penn all the way up to Croton–Harmon and switch to diesel at that point rather than using a battery pack, which seems very unproven and not as logical

There is no continuous electrification from Penn Station to Croton Harmon. Third Rail locomotives are notoriously poor performers because they do not have enough space for enough number of shoes to pick up enough current from low voltage DC third rails. It would in general be technically a bad idea for a locomotive to be powered by third rail for such long haulage. And they don't have a solution to the gapping problem at complex interlockings either. I am sure our friend @Dutchrailnut can tell us all about it.

This is the reason the Metro North dual modes operate diesel upto the point where they have to enter the tunnels.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

The Dual modes for Empire service are being bought by NY state, not Amtrak
As for continuous operation in E mode, guaranteed even if its touted, it will be on as needed bases per operations center, just like current Genesis
The third rail has many gaps, for section switches, interlockings etc. and every time HEP goes down so do all HVAC units on cars. the constant restarting would render a lot of AC inoperable.

 

[west point]

The third rail has many gaps, for section switches, interlockings etc. and every time HEP goes down so do all HVAC units on cars. the constant restarting would render a lot of AC inoperable.

This is a very important point that many forget. Here is what happens. The 5 minute restart of the compressor(s) had better not fail or you can slug it then break a compressor shaft. If 5 minute delay works then cooling becomes less. Continuing gaps can really cut HVAC efficiency.

Just one more reason for using CAT whenever possible.

 

[BlackDiamond]

There is no continuous electrification from Penn Station to Croton Harmon. Third Rail locomotives are notoriously poor performers because they do not have enough space for enough number of shoes to pick up enough current from low voltage DC third rails. It would in general be technically a bad idea for a locomotive to be powered by third rail for such long haulage. And they don't have a solution to the gapping problem at complex interlockings either. I am sure our friend @Dutchrailnut can tell us all about it.

This is the reason the Metro North dual modes operate diesel upto the point where they have to enter the tunnels.

This problem could be resolved by the use of EMU equipment. In the UK London to Dover is about double the distance from NYP to Croton Harmon and operates just fine with third rail EMU. In the US we have this obsession with favoring locomotive hauled over MU and this results in some non optimal choices.

 

[jis]

This problem could be resolved by the use of EMU equipment. In the UK London to Dover is about double the distance from NYP to Croton Harmon and operates just fine with third rail EMU. In the US we have this obsession with favoring locomotive hauled over MU and this results in some non optimal choices.

There are many things that could be done. But what has been ordered is Airo, so that is what I was discussing.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

This is a very important point that many forget. Here is what happens. The 5 minute restart of the compressor(s) had better not fail or you can slug it then break a compressor shaft. If 5 minute delay works then cooling becomes less. Continuing gaps can really cut HVAC efficiency.

most interlockings and third rail section switches are within a mile of each other, so that 5-minute timer keeps getting reset every time the Locomotive gaps.