Amenities Being Eliminated from Long Distance Routes

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All of this back and forth over a few dollars worth of food and beverages misses the larger issue for Amtrak and its operating costs. They employ a lot of highly paid people along with high overhead for pensions and perqs. I see comments here from retirees, probably on a $1200/mo Social Security stipend, wondering how much to tip a SCA who probably earns $90K a year in salary alone*. Really?

Until Amtrak addresses its bloated payroll they can cut all the pillow mints they want from the LD lines, it won't make a damn bit of difference.
*citation needed
Fancy! ^

Good thing this isn't a tipping thread.

Also, I think Marines make less than that and they sometimes don't see their boyfriends and pets for YEARS!
 
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All of this back and forth over a few dollars worth of food and beverages misses the larger issue for Amtrak and its operating costs. They employ a lot of highly paid people along with high overhead for pensions and perqs. I see comments here from retirees, probably on a $1200/mo Social Security stipend, wondering how much to tip a SCA who probably earns $90K a year in salary alone. Really?

Until Amtrak addresses its bloated payroll they can cut all the pillow mints they want from the LD lines, it won't make a damn bit of difference.
$90K in salary alone? What are you smoking dude? This is from a new job posting this week, granted, LSA's make more that TAS and TAC's but not by the order of magnitude you are talking about. There may be a small fraction of LSA's, and I say "may" who thru seniority (20-30 yrs on the job) approach that, but I highly doubt it's a big number.

Job Posting Title
01/13/2014
Effective Date
EA-90128710
Reference Code
$60.00 per day during training. $17.91 Per Hour After Training
Additional Information
OBS Trainee - SA/TA (10)
Job Title
Amtrak
Company

Transportation
Department
SUMMARY OF DUTIES:
The OBS Trainee - Service Attendant/Train Attendant is responsible for ensuring a safe, comfortable, and
pleasant journey to our coach and sleeping car passengers. The Train Attendant can work either coach or
sleeping cars. Coach Attendants will be required to keep assigned coaches clean for the duration of the trip, ............................
 
More than salaries, it's the pensions that are really costing the most to Amtrak right now. If all the retirees were on their own 401(k) plan (which is what most corporations have gone to), Amtrak wouldn't have to be so concerned over paying people who aren't working.

The whole pension plan is a Ponzi scheme. You're relying on growth of business and revenue to pay back those who've stopped working years ago. And every year, you're adding to the pay of those who aren't working. And when, like Amtrak, you're not growing at the rate you are increasing your human resources expences at, it's gonna kill your bottom line.

It's the pensions that contributed to the bankruptcy of Detroit. With all the people leaving the city, they still had to pay not only their current employees, but their retired employees. Then, when bankruptcy hits, the pensioners lose just about first.

RRDude - I don't think that your quoting a job posting is helping much (and I respect you immensely). When minimum wage is around $5-9 depending on where you live, a STARTING wage that is nearly double to triple that is pretty darn good. And I'm not sure what the escalation is, but I imagine that those beginning wages grow faster than the rate of inflation to quite a working wage very quickly.
 
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All of this back and forth over a few dollars worth of food and beverages misses the larger issue for Amtrak and its operating costs. They employ a lot of highly paid people along with high overhead for pensions and perqs. I see comments here from retirees, probably on a $1200/mo Social Security stipend, wondering how much to tip a SCA who probably earns $90K a year in salary alone. Really?

Until Amtrak addresses its bloated payroll they can cut all the pillow mints they want from the LD lines, it won't make a damn bit of difference.
$90K in salary alone? What are you smoking dude? This is from a new job posting this week, granted, LSA's make more that TAS and TAC's but not by the order of magnitude you are talking about. There may be a small fraction of LSA's, and I say "may" who thru seniority (20-30 yrs on the job) approach that, but I highly doubt it's a big number.

Job Posting Title
01/13/2014
Effective Date
EA-90128710
Reference Code
$60.00 per day during training. $17.91 Per Hour After Training
Additional Information
OBS Trainee - SA/TA (10)
Job Title
Amtrak
Company

Transportation
Department
SUMMARY OF DUTIES:
The OBS Trainee - Service Attendant/Train Attendant is responsible for ensuring a safe, comfortable, and
pleasant journey to our coach and sleeping car passengers. The Train Attendant can work either coach or
sleeping cars. Coach Attendants will be required to keep assigned coaches clean for the duration of the trip, ............................
We'd better do the math for him. I have a notion

that he's not very good with numbers.

Hourly pay of $17.91. (Beats the heck out of

the minimum wage, I'll give you that.)

Then 40 hours a week gives you $716.40 per.

With 52 weeks in a year, your hard-working

The OBS Service Attendant/Train Attendant

could haul home $37,252.80 in the first year

after being promoted from Trainee. BFD,

Makes me feel better about the starting pay for teachers

in my small town hometown in Texas. Not much better,

but better.
 
More than salaries, it's the pensions that are really costing the most to Amtrak right now. If all the retirees were on their own 401(k) plan (which is what most corporations have gone to), Amtrak wouldn't have to be so concerned over paying people who aren't working.

The whole pension plan is a Ponzi scheme. You're relying on growth of business and revenue to pay back those who've stopped working years ago. And every year, you're adding to the pay of those who aren't working. And when, like Amtrak, you're not growing at the rate you are increasing your human resources expences at, it's gonna kill your bottom line.

It's the pensions that contributed to the bankruptcy of Detroit. With all the people leaving the city, they still had to pay not only their current employees, but their retired employees. Then, when bankruptcy hits, the pensioners lose just about first.

RRDude - I don't think that your quoting a job posting is helping much (and I respect you immensely). When minimum wage is around $5-9 depending on where you live, a STARTING wage that is nearly double to triple that is pretty darn good. And I'm not sure what the escalation is, but I imagine that those beginning wages grow faster than the rate of inflation to quite a working wage very quickly.
While, I agree completely about pensions being a current drag, they are promises made at an earlier date that were accepted as a condition of the prior employment agreement. I have no problem with Amtrak, or anyone stopping pensions going forward, but refusing to follow up on a prior promise is dishonest.

Does anyone have verifiable data on the min and max wage for pay classes on Amtrak? I sure do not.
 
While, I agree completely about pensions being a current drag, they are promises made at an earlier date that were accepted as a condition of the prior employment agreement. I have no problem with Amtrak, or anyone stopping pensions going forward, but refusing to follow up on a prior promise is dishonest.
I totally agree. Bankruptcy, by definition, is a legal tactic by which you get out of financially burdening promises (ie: contracts). Even existing corporations that are going 401(k) have to honor their pension agreements - and they are, unless that famous chapter 11 from the book of bankruptcy is oracled. But I don't think Amtrak (or any other government entity) is even looking that way.
 
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A better way to restate the point I was trying to make is, simply saying "x gets subsidies, therefore, so should y," is one of the weakest arguments one could possibly make in favor of something. Hence my point about the easiest response to the whole thing being "so what?"

You need a better argument in favor of something than pointing out the shortcomings of something else.
 
More than salaries, it's the pensions that are really costing the most to Amtrak right now. If all the retirees were on their own 401(k) plan (which is what most corporations have gone to), Amtrak wouldn't have to be so concerned over paying people who aren't working.
Amtrak workers don't get a pension in the traditional sense. They collect from the RR Retirement Fund, similar in nature to Social Security. And they pay more into that fund than you & I pay into Social Security. Yes, Amtrak still has to contribute money to the fund; but it is not 100% funded by Amtrak.

And all RR workers, freight & passenger, pay into the fund and collect from the fund. This also means that the freight RR's have to contribute money into the fund also. It's not just Amtrak, and if Amtrak were to go away, workers would still get their retirement money.
 
Regarding the pension issue.

The Railroad Retirement Fund has been accused of overcharging Amtrak and undercharging the freight railroads due to transitional provisions from the formation of Amtrak; I have no idea regarding the validity of this claim, and it may be nonsense.

The biggest problem in terms of RR Retirement Fund expenses seems, from what I can tell, to be similar to the "Baby Boomer" issue in Social Security. There were really enormous numbers of railroad employees until the 1970s, and there have been a lot less since then (the number dropped over the 70s & 80s mostly).

(Cite http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v68n2/v68n2p41.html -- 640,000 employees in 1970, 236,000 in 2007).

Anyway, the masses of retirees in the 1970s and 1980s are, frankly, dying off now (40 years later), so the "bubble" in Railroad Retirement is ending and in a decade or so the retirees will be supported by a roughly comparable number of workers. At which point it becomes not so much of a problem.
 
Pension plans are protected by ERISA, which of course started the process by which companies sought to rid themselves of that obligation... otherwise called the rise of the 401(k).

What I'm really wondering, though, is.... do SCAs and other onboard crew really make 90k? Cause if they do, I am just flat out stupid to tip them. 90k? I wouldn't even know what to do with that much money.
 
What I'm really wondering, though, is.... do SCAs and other onboard crew really make 90k? Cause if they do, I am just flat out stupid to tip them. 90k? I wouldn't even know what to do with that much money.
No, they do not. Not even close. See the discussion on page 14.
 
I would rather see the vases and newspapers stay and those tablecloths go. They just seemed to be so big, and being disposable, that has to be a bit of a cost. I just didn't find them functional. The creases were so stiff, the salad plates, and others are so light that they won't lay even on the table. There was a lot of overhang that just seemed to be in the way.
 
Old data (some four years old), seems to indicate the average annual pay for Amtrak employees is $61K:

http://www.careerbliss.com/amtrak/salaries/

It appears the "grunts", service attendants riding the trains are paid a wage far above what similar workers in the hospitality industry typically earn.
 
You know, this site might not be the best source of data:
(1) At the very least, the "job mix" seems to skew high.

(2) If you look closely, there are two "Senior Project Manager" positions in New Brunswick, the chefs are located in Nova Scotia...
 
Old data (some four years old), seems to indicate the average annual pay for Amtrak employees is $61K:

http://www.careerbliss.com/amtrak/salaries/

It appears the "grunts", service attendants riding the trains are paid a wage far above what similar workers in the hospitality industry typically earn.
That's an average. That includes top brass. You really can't use that to extrapolate how much an attendant makes.

As has been discussed, ad nauseam, sleeper car attendants make approximately $38,000 per year.

This $90,000 b.s. is how rumors get started. People need to do research before believing some random, anonymous guest (not you, the original Chicken Little who posted that nonsense about $90,000/year). That's why my original post on the subject said "citation needed".
 
Define "similar workers".
You know, other people who spend six days at a time away from home, with two days straight basically trapped at your workplace with no ability at all to wander around, while working 6 am to 11 pm with a couple of hour-long breaks in between. Those "similar workers."
 
Hi, I'm back to... kill the idiocy of pension discussions right here in the bud. Employees with pensions are absolutely the death of America, aren't they? Um, no, no they aren't. Management of pension plans by company management is the problem, not the pension themselves.

It is my duty, as a lifetime employer, to provide my employee with enough money to live in a manner according to his station in life, and to provide that he can retire from my employee when he is no longer able to work for me, and as a reward and compensation for all those years duly serving me, can retire and live in the manner that he has become accustomed. If you can't afford to operate on employing somebody at that level, you can't afford the employee, stupid.

Actuarial tables show how long the average person is supposed to live, a number that has been going up at a fairly consistent overall rate for years and years and years. When you decide to offer your employees a pension plan- something I've been contemplating doing as of late, by the by- you have to work out how much it costs you. You have a typical old fashioned worker. He starts working for you at 20 or so, retires around 65, works for you for forty-five years. Right? Right.

Ok, so in todays dollars, Mr. Worker Dude works for me at, say, 30,000 a year. Lets assume no inflation, and no resulting raises, and an interest rate ahead of inflation at 3%, for simplicity of math. Actuarial tables suggest Mr. Worker Dude is going to live until he is approximately 90 years old (again, this is 40 years in the future, most people don't live to 90, but I should account for the fact that the average lifespan keeps going up). Ok. Fine. All well and good.

The pension plan keeps Mr. Worker Dude on at 2/3rds his working wage, social security and the fact that he should no longer have a home mortgage making his pensioned income match his working income. Ok. Time for the math all the other corporations should have been doing.

He does not make 30,000 working for me- thats his take home pay. Common trick stating the full amount, so that people can compare it with their take-home pay. No, employment costs way more than take home pay. Providing for the employees break area, workers compensation, etc. etc. makes it much higher, and the pension is part of the payment. Period. Its not just part of the payment- it is part of what the employee earns.

Anyway, employee will make 30,000 a year in salary, plus 10,000 a year in basic benefits (health insurance, workers comp, provided protection equipment, paid vacation and sick leave, etc) for 45 years, or $1.8 million. For a $20,000 a year pension, it will cost me $25k a year including the continued lifetime benefits, so if he lives until he is 90 I need to support him for 25 years at $25k, or $625,000.

Using a retirement calculator, we find that we need to prepare, under the parameters I laid out, to lay aside $6800 per additional employee per year. So the cost of that typical employee working those parameters with take home pay of $30,000 is $46800 a year. That $6800 per employee should be considered a separate account at the company. It should be untouchable, designed to fund each employees retirement. If there are less employees now, well thats irrelevant, because by the time Mr. Dude is retired, the amount I have contributed into the fund on his behalf should have provided the $625,000 I need to pay off his pension.

The bull-**** of Ponzi schemes, funnels, bubbles, and so on is just a company's way of trying to blame the fact that they mismanaged their business and possibly their retirement funds on the employees. That money should be set aside and separate from day to day management and operations of the business. They can, I suppose, use it to invest in their own business, paying the returns on it back to the fund with interest. Its as valid a place as any to try to generate that 3% return betting on your own competence. But the fact that you can't fund the company because you made that bet and lost is NOT the fault of retirement benefit drains. Its the fault of you screwing up your management of your business.

I'm not saying I am a perfect businessman, or that I haven't bet funds I perhaps shouldn't have been playing with on my belief that my next project was going to yield huge returns. I do that. But when I bet my money and lose it, its my fault. When I bet my employees pension benefits, and lose it, it is also my fault. When I promise to offer benefits, it is my job to recognize that providing that costs me $6800 extra a year for Mr. Dude, and consider that part of his compensation. Period.

He isn't draining me. He is working for me. If a satisfied worker, secure in his knowledge that his retirement and future are secure so long as he does good solid work for me, he is probably working hard for my benefit. It is my DUTY to guide my firm in a way that provides security for my workers livelihood (I build my empire with their hands, man), as well as make a decent living for myself (and I don't blast large salaries to competent management, either), and provide a fair return for my shareholders/investors.

So please, drop the retirement funds killing companies argument. Its a load of poppycock. People will blame anyone for doing something wrong, regardless of who the fault lays with.
 
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