AMTRAK and Real IDs

[zephyr17]

Long ago I read an interview with somebody at El Al, the airline of Israel. He said that if you get on an airplane in Israel, they know who you are, but that in America everybody's a suspect. I wish I'd saved that interview.

I wish you had, too. I'd love to see it.

 

[jis]

Long ago I read an interview with somebody at El Al, the airline of Israel. He said that if you get on an airplane in Israel, they know who you are, but that in America everybody's a suspect. I wish I'd saved that interview.

Having been through departure security at Ben Gurion many times I can attest to its thoroughness barring none.

Also all flights to Israel irrespective of originating airport undergo secondary security examination at the boarding gate AFAIK

 

[Stevenz]

If the cops are so hot to catch serious criminals, and they have good evidence that the suspect is passing through an airport, they can stop people who meet the suspect's description and check them against all the databases they want

That’s called profiling and it’s a no-no now. Many utterly sensible things are a no-no now.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Yes but the time they take to verify your identity, is an invitation to missing your flight.

It was around 15-20 minutes, which is not nothing but if that's all it took to miss your flight then you were already cutting it a bit too close. With KTN's, biometrics, and digital ID's becoming more common and accepted physical documents are becoming less relevant over time.

Link: https://www.tsa.gov/digital-id

Long ago I read an interview with somebody at El Al, the airline of Israel. He said that if you get on an airplane in Israel, they know who you are, but that in America everybody's a suspect. I wish I'd saved that interview.

Israel does not have a US Constitution to work within. In theory all airlines have to obey the US Constitution while operating in the US but in practice countries can ban you for any reason they see fit and the airline can say it was the country's decision and not theirs.

That’s called profiling and it’s a no-no now. Many utterly sensible things are a no-no now.

Terry vs. Ohio has been in effect for my entire life and I've seen police meet planes and trains looking for passengers matching a description or anyone alerted on by a dog more times than I can count. In addition the TSA, airport police, and CBP are allowed to cooperate in a way that proactively sidesteps former restrictions on search and seizure from before the creation of the DHS.

 

[Literalman]

"Israel does not have a US Constitution to work within. In theory all airlines have to obey the US Constitution while operating in the US": yes, but it's the TSA, not the airlines, that treats everybody like a suspect. Remember the 2011 fiasco at the Amtrak Savannah station when the TSA directed all passengers getting off a train to go into the station and be scrutinized? The suspects were mostly police officers and firefighters and their families.

 

[JuniusLivonius]

I think a little digging into the staff manuals will solve a lot of questions. This comes up over and over on forums and on Reddit. I raise these points with the caveat that there is no indicator that the referenced document(s) is still in force and valid.

Train Service Accounting Procedures: User Guide (Effective August 12, 2019)
https://pal-amtrak.efoia-host.com/app/AddAttachment.aspx?docid=6&ispaldoc=P
Archive: https://web.archive.org/web/2025010...com/app/AddAttachment.aspx?docid=6&ispaldoc=P

This is on the "Reading Room" section of Amtrak's FOIA portal, although the reading room clearly hasn't had any documents added for a few years. Reading this document and knowing how inconsistent and rare Amtrak's ID checks are, I don't think Amtrak really wants to deal with ID at all.

- When randomly prompted by the eMD, check the customer’s identification matches the ticketed name before lifting.
- If the name on the ticket does not match the name on the ID, and the customer explains that someone else paid for the ticket at a Quik-Trak kiosk, the Conductor or Assistant Conductor should lift the ticket.
- If the customer does not have valid identification, or if the customer’s identification does not match against the name on the face of the ticket, and there is no reasonable explanation for the discrepancy, the Amtrak police must be notified by the quickest available means away from the customer.
- Failure to possess the proper photo identification is not, by itself, sufficient reason to have the customer removed from the train.

Additionally, here are some specific notes on the kiosk purchases:
b) When a ticket is obtained at a Quik-Trak kiosk without making a prior reservation (a “walk-up sale”), the name on the paper value ticket or eTicket travel document will be the name on the payment card that was used for the transaction. In this case, the name on the paper value ticket or eTicket travel document may not correspond with the customer’s ID if someone else has paid. In order to avoid this situation, a reservation should be made at (800) USA-RAIL or Amtrak.com and then printed at a Quik-Trak kiosk. By doing this, Quik-Trak will print a paper value ticket or eTicket travel document with the name that is on the reservation.
c) If the name on the paper value ticket or eTicket travel document does not match the name on the ID, and the customer explains that someone else paid for the ticket at a Quik-Trak kiosk, the Conductor or Assistant Conductor should lift the paper value ticket or eTicket travel document. The Conductor or Assistant Conductor should use tact and courtesy when explaining that this situation can be avoided in the future by making a reservation prior to purchasing the paper value ticket or eTicket travel document at a Quik-Trak kiosk (Refer to previous letter “b”).


As you can see, the kiosks derive the name from the payment method's name. When buying a ticket at a counter, no matter who operates the desk, (ie NJ Transit employees in New Jersey at Amtrak stations) identification must be presented which is probably how the name is derived for the ticket in that case.

However, lack of ID is not itself a sole reason for removal, notwithstanding exceptions for the things like border crossings, USA Rail Pass, proof of veteran/senior status for discounts, Congressional travel privileges as outlined in the manual. People who are questionably under age 18 also trigger a different set of procedures.

There is also a special note for specific cultural sensitivities or practices. Unsurprisingly, with Amtrak's coverage in Pennsylvania, this one addresses Amish and Mennonites:

- Amish and Mennonite persons are not required to have photo identification. Any person stating that they are Amish or Mennonite, and wears the distinctive dress of these communities, may present non-photo identification containing a physical description of the individual

Pennsylvania also seems to issue "valid without photo" IDs (not to be confused with temporary ones that also say the same) typically targeted at these communities. Unfortunately the usage of "may" instead of "might" might be a problem because it implies that members of these communities all cohesively practice in a uniform way that can only be defined by a central authority instead of at an individual level. That's a tangent, though, but that can be avoided by using looser language.


All that being said, I don't see an ID is REAL or not being relevant on Amtrak for a long time, if ever. It's just an eyeball check if it even happens in the first place.

Also, any bets on a further REAL ID deadline extension?

 

[MARC Rider]

Having been through departure security at Ben Gurion many times I can attest to its thoroughness barring none.

Also all flights to Israel irrespective of originating airport undergo secondary security examination at the boarding gate AFAIK

They had an incident in the early 1970s when some people packed weapons in their checked bags and took them out at the baggage claim and started shooting up the place.

 

[MARC Rider]

That’s called profiling and it’s a no-no now. Many utterly sensible things are a no-no now.

Profiling? You mean a witness says that a perp meets a certain description and the cops can't check out people meeting that description? How the hell did were they able to catch that guy Mangione, who shot the insurance executive. His description was plastered all over the place. Profiling is just hassling every person of a certain subgroup solely because they belong to that subgroup, whether it's race, gedner, grooming style, etc. In other words, it's going after everyone in a group, not an individual who may have committed a crime.

 

[basketmaker]

Profiling? You mean a witness says that a perp meets a certain description and the cops can't check out people meeting that description? How the hell did were they able to catch that guy Mangione, who shot the insurance executive. His description was plastered all over the place. Profiling is just hassling every person of a certain subgroup solely because they belong to that subgroup, whether it's race, gedner, grooming style, etc. In other words, it's going after everyone in a group, not an individual who may have committed a crime.

Local LEO do board Amtrak trains! A few years ago I booked a quick ride for fun and relaxation from FMG to EMY and back in a roomette. The return the following day. Well that apparently triggers certain computers like Amtrak, NCIS and DEA to that could be a drug/money mule type of itinerary. Well, shortly out of RNO on #5 a gentleman came up behind me as I was taking pics in the lounge car. There was another gentleman with him. Both dressed in t-shirts and shorts. The first guy bent over and quietly ask me if I was Karl which I of course said yes. He raised the bottom of his t-shirt to expose a Reno Police Department badge. I thought that I may have taken a picture or several maybe on the RNO platform of some criminal activity. He explained to me why he was on the train and that was he and his colleagues were part of the Reno PD Drug Interdiction Task Force. And that my itinerary had been flagged. Nicely ask if I would allow them to check my baggage and if could pat me down. I said absolutely and to follow me to the trans/dorm #24 at the front of the train. He and the other officer followed me to my room. They waited until we got there and did a normal frisk of me. Then ask if they could go through my luggage which was fine with me. Only had a small bag and camera bag. They checked it and said thank you. I said no thank you (I've worn "Blue Lives Matter" bracelet for several years) and that I sincerely appreciate what they do. I did ask him if they did this every day and how far do they ride? He said they go out to Truckee and then back on #6 maybe once or twice a week. I did notice that the other two officers did apparently pinch a couple of young men as they escorted them off the train at TRU. Guess is they maybe had some weed on their person. Some these days would be all up in arms for being "profiled" but I think it is a great tool for law enforcement! Gotta say this was one of the best and most memorable Amtrak excursions. Loved it.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

yes, but it's the TSA, not the airlines, that treats everybody like a suspect.

I'm not a fan of the TSA but other than the delays associated with deploying 3D CT-scanners for carry-on luggage I barely notice them anymore. When flying out for the holidays I made it from the drop-off curb to the airside lounge in five or ten minutes, which is similar to pre-TSA days. Of course that's down to paying them to interview and background check me, which is its own kind of absurdity, and booking midday flights in between the morning and evening rush. It's not great but not horrible for flying. That said, if the TSA comes to Amtrak it will probably be a huge mess. There is no established process, no appropriate infrastructure, and no expectation of being scanned by customers. Even if all those things did exist the TSA would probably make the experience much worse without making train travel that much safer.