Amtrak asks a passenger to move ...

[Bex]

Well, this isn't good, the head of the NAACP legal defense fund was just asked to give up her seat on the Carolinian. She first tweeted,

.@Amtrak I’m being asked to leave my seat on train 80 which I just boarded in D.C. There are no assigned seats on this train. The conductor has asked me to leave my seat because she has”other people coming who she wants to give this seat.” Can you please explain?

https://twitter.com/Sifill_LDF/status/1218296672524042240


And then went on to tweet:

@Amtrak update. I will preface this by saying that I love Amtrak. I am a regular customer. I returned to Amtrak even after suffering a concussion and broken collarbone in the Philadelphia derailment of 188 in 2015. So this incident will not sour me on using this impt public rail.

But this was truly bizarre. I left the train at Baltimore and called over the lead conductor and the agent/conductor who attempted to remove me from my seat.

I laid it out. She mow said “she wanted to keep empty seats at the front.” Me: “oh so there were no “special passengers.” I laid out the facts and made clear that I know thst it is absolutely contrary to policy and unacceptable to pick one passenger from an unassigned seat and demand she move. Lead conductor (man) just has his mouth open. The woman agent/conductor now drops her head.

At the point I said I was getting off in Baltimore - the next stop is on the train - she should have known that she had totally screwed up and apologized. Instead “follow me. I’ve found a seat for you.” Lead conductor admits he has no explanation and apologizes. I get his name.

She is looking frankly, unwell. I will deal officially with @Amtrak on Monday which, up to this moment still has not DM’d me or responded. So, that’s actually my concern at this point.

What really disturbs me is how someone with this authority can just entirely make up something so ridiculous and approach a customer in this way. I did wonder when she was carrying on - how far will I take this? And the immediate answer in my mind was “all the way.”

When I was laying her out to the conductor at one point I said, “I can sit where I want,” and thought - is it 1950?

MODERATOR NOTE: This post and many of those following it were posted to another thread. A new thread was started on 1/21/20 on the same topic. The "older" posts were moved to the new thread so that all comments are in the same thread.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

That happened to me once on a Pacific Surfliner. Conductor just told me to move, that I couldn’t sit where I was sitting even though there was no sign saying the seat was reserved. I just moved... wasn’t worth a fight.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Not good, but perhaps the passenger was old enough to have been subject to the Jim Crow Laws back in the Bad Old Dsyz when Black folks were segregated into " Colored" Cars or had to sit in back on public transportation.

I've been asked to move many times on trains,planes and buses to accommodate families or disabled passengers and it hasnt bothered me ,if the OBS or Conductor asked instead of ordered!

 

[Gary Behling]

Well, this isn't good, the head of the NAACP legal defense fund was just asked to give up her seat on the Carolinian. She first tweeted,

.@Amtrak I’m being asked to leave my seat on train 80 which I just boarded in D.C. There are no assigned seats on this train. The conductor has asked me to leave my seat because she has”other people coming who she wants to give this seat.” Can you please explain?

https://twitter.com/Sifill_LDF/status/1218296672524042240


And then went on to tweet:

@Amtrak update. I will preface this by saying that I love Amtrak. I am a regular customer. I returned to Amtrak even after suffering a concussion and broken collarbone in the Philadelphia derailment of 188 in 2015. So this incident will not sour me on using this impt public rail.

But this was truly bizarre. I left the train at Baltimore and called over the lead conductor and the agent/conductor who attempted to remove me from my seat.

I laid it out. She mow said “she wanted to keep empty seats at the front.” Me: “oh so there were no “special passengers.” I laid out the facts and made clear that I know thst it is absolutely contrary to policy and unacceptable to pick one passenger from an unassigned seat and demand she move. Lead conductor (man) just has his mouth open. The woman agent/conductor now drops her head.

At the point I said I was getting off in Baltimore - the next stop is on the train - she should have known that she had totally screwed up and apologized. Instead “follow me. I’ve found a seat for you.” Lead conductor admits he has no explanation and apologizes. I get his name.

She is looking frankly, unwell. I will deal officially with @Amtrak on Monday which, up to this moment still has not DM’d me or responded. So, that’s actually my concern at this point.

What really disturbs me is how someone with this authority can just entirely make up something so ridiculous and approach a customer in this way. I did wonder when she was carrying on - how far will I take this? And the immediate answer in my mind was “all the way.”

When I was laying her out to the conductor at one point I said, “I can sit where I want,” and thought - is it 1950?

It seems to me that it's time for fully grown adults to learn how to say "NO" and refuse to comply with "authority" I learned this simple technique when I refused military service in 1967 and then later in 1977 when I said "NO" to a conductor on Amtrak Zephyr who wanted me to give up one of my two (2) seats to someone. When ever I ride coach, I always buy 2 seats. The conductor tried several time to pressure me in to giving up one of my seats and I was adamant with saying "NO" !!! and that conductor finally went away (angry)--- but so what!!

 

[RichieRich]

If seats aren't assigned/reserved...then you don't own a seat! Once I found people in my 2 bedrooms on the AT. They were in the wrong car. Didn't make a scene, didn't feel "dissed", just moved and took theirs! But then, that's just me! I'm not "the head of the NAACP legal defense fund" !!!

 

[Gary Behling]

It's good that there are people who do what they're told to do without question. But then, that isn't me.

 

[Bob Dylan]

It seems to me that it's time for fully grown adults to learn how to say "NO" and refuse to comply with "authority" I learned this simple technique when I refused military service in 1967 and then later in 1977 when I said "NO" to a conductor on Amtrak Zephyr who wanted me to give up one of my two (2) seats to someone. When ever I ride coach, I always buy 2 seats. The conductor tried several time to pressure me in to giving up one of my seats and I was adamant with saying "NO" !!! and that conductor finally went away (angry)--- but so what!!

You're lucky you weren't put off the Train in the Big Nowhere! A Conductor is like the Capitan of a Ship or Airliner, they are in total control with full authority over everyone on the Train, Crew and Passengers!

 

[crescent-zephyr]

You're lucky you weren't put off the Train in the Big Nowhere! A Conductor is like the Capitan of a Ship or Airliner, they are in total control with full authority over everyone on the Train, Crew and Passengers!

Exactly. I saw a Conductor have police escort a man off of the crescent simply for asking why he couldn't sit in another car too many times. She literally said "you don't like how I run my train, you won't be riding it, say one more word and you're off the train" and he did.. and she called the police on him. Atlanta police escorted him off the train. I heard the whole thing.. he never even raised his voice or cussed he just kept complaining about not being able to sit in the next car. (There was an empty car one ahead of us, I'm not sure if they were keeping it locked until Charlotte, or it was not in service or what... either way we all had a seat. But of course he thought he should be able to have 2 seats to himself since there was "a whole empty car" up there.)

I wouldn't argue with a flight attendant either.. if you have a problem send a comment card in after the fact and try to get a voucher or some free points.

 

[drdumont]

Well, I'll tell yuh. If I buy two seats, I will sit in those two seats. Same as on an aircraft. If the conductor wants me to move from my two seats, he better have two seats for me in the new location. I have paid for value, and he does not have the right to deprive me of that value without compensation.
I pay for two assigned parking spaces so I can park in the middle and protect my car from parking lot morons. I will not move my car so someone can use one of those spots when the lot is full. I pay for them, they are mine!
Yes, the Conductor is the Captain, as it were. But he is not infallible.
And cars are kept dark for a reason. I side with the Conductor on that one.

 

[Bex]

I think there is history that doesn't play into it for many here, I'd guess.

Anyway, it made the Baltimore Sun: https://www.baltimoresun.com/maryla...0200118-hnmoetbrmbcsphe42k7sqhhqdi-story.html

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I think there is history that doesn't play into it for many here, I'd guess.

Anyway, it made the Baltimore Sun: https://www.baltimoresun.com/maryla...0200118-hnmoetbrmbcsphe42k7sqhhqdi-story.html

Ohhhhh this is a bit more than I initially thought it was. Good for her. Maybe she can help the $25k wheelchair group with an ADA lawsuit as well.

 

[PVD]

If I recall correctly, it is contrary to Amtrak ticketing rules to buy 2 seats solely for the purpose of having an empty seat next to you barring a medical or disability reason. If the conductor feels like putting someone there, you don't have much of a case. Some businesses choose to sell "convenience" space, Amtrak is not one of them.

 

[drdumont]

If I recall correctly, it is contrary to Amtrak ticketing rules to buy 2 seats solely for the purpose of having an empty seat next to you barring a medical or disability reason. If the conductor feels like putting someone there, you don't have much of a case. Some businesses choose to sell "convenience" space, Amtrak is not one of them.

I'd like to see the actual stated policy. Seems to me that if you have paid for two seats, you should be able to enjoy the fruits of your purchase. Or worst case, get your money back.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I'd like to see the actual stated policy. Seems to me that if you have paid for two seats, you should be able to enjoy the fruits of your purchase. Or worst case, get your money back.

It’s in the rule book, it’s been quoted before. But I’ve also heard an Acela conductor threaten a lady with an extra ticket charge because she kept putting her hand bag on the seat next to her, so as usual the rules change with the conductor.

 

[PVD]

It is a topic that has been kicked around here before. It is one of those things that isn't really simple, since there are people who require 2 seats for size reasons (they have to pay), certain types of service animals need to be right next to someone for certain types of sensing, I would think you should get your money back since they shouldn't have taken it in the first place. It should come up as an "impossible/duplicate" booking, since 2 seats would have the same name on the reservation. On the other hand if someone were to use a second name to beat the system, it wouldn't flag, but since that person would be a no show they/you would be entitled to nothing if the conductor took the seat. Hard to make a claim with unclean hands in the second scenario.

 

[drdumont]

If she didn't pay for the seat, she has no right to deny a ticketed passenger to sit there. I'd side with the Conductor on this one.

 

[Bex]

If she didn't pay for the seat, she has no right to deny a ticketed passenger to sit there. I'd side with the Conductor on this one.

Just to make it clear to those who haven't read the article, Sherrilyn Ifill did not buy two seats, that's relating to another part of this thread.

 

[John Bredin]

...on the King Day weekend, and the passenger and others see it as a Rosa Parks incident.
http://www.startribune.com/civil-ri...to-give-up-train-seat/567124582/?refresh=true

On one hand, I can see having a "why ask me?" attitude when, as she correctly notes, no individual seats are reserved. (I've never had that feeling on a train, but I have felt when dining alone in some restaurants like couples and larger parties were prioritized over singletons though my $ spends exactly the same.) And the optics of asking a black passenger to move on MLK Day weekend aren't the best.

On the other hand, I'm fairly certain that the conductor was not asking her to move because she's black, as we've heard many such stories on this forum. Also, IMHO there are some valid -- or at least arguably reasonable -- seating priorities such as placing a party of three or more in four facing seats.

 

[Steve4031]

The problem is Amtrak’s practice of allowing employees to make up rules and practices as they go along. The only way it’s appropriate to ask a passenger to move is if they are sitting in the wrong class of service or in seats that were already marked reserved for attendant or for families with a sign . A secondary reason is if the there’s a safety reason or the car is bad ordered. All of these are reasons that I’m sure this person would understand.

The other issue is that on Amtrak a reserved seat does not mean a person has a specific seat even though in most modes of transportation reserved seat means a specific seat. Unreserved means first come first served. Period. Since this was an unreserved train she should have been left alone.

 

[desertflyer]

I think it's important to note that, as white men, we (OP and me) probably do not have the same set of experiences or perspectives in these situations, and we should be aware of this when drawing our conclusions. Implicit bias is a pretty well documented phenomena and it's hard to know what exactly happened in this situation.

I will say that this looks bad for Amtrak, especially because the channels on Twitter that would normally respond to customer feedback went silent around the time she was posting on Twitter.

(edited for clarity)

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I think it's important to note that, as white men, we probably do have the same set of experiences or perspectives in these situations, and we should be aware of this when drawing our conclusions.

Umm.... who is we? Are you implying that everyone on this site is a white male?

And did you mean to say we do have the same set of experiences? Or did you mean to say that we don’t?

 

[fairviewroad]

It's not clear from this story whether the individual was asked to move to a different seat, or that she was forced to stand. I'd be surprised if it was the latter, for while some NEC trains do get into standee situations, that's rare. I also think the outrage level would be much higher if she had been made to stand.

Amtrak's "terms and conditions" provide mixed messages on the subject. On the one hand, it says "unless specific seats are assigned, seating is on a first-come, first-serve basis." But on the other hand, "Amtrak reserves to itself full control and discretion as to seating of passengers."

Unless the seat she was moved to was demonstrably inferior, comparisons to Rosa Parks are pretty silly. But people who sit in a seat that is otherwise available should not be asked to move. It's poor customer service.

 

[John Bredin]

Another article made it clear that (1) she was asked to move to another car, not to stand, but (2) there were plenty of seats in the car she was in first. https://www.baltimoresun.com/maryla...0200118-hnmoetbrmbcsphe42k7sqhhqdi-story.html

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Another article made it clear that (1) she was asked to move to another car, not to stand, but (2) there were plenty of seats in the car she was in first. https://www.baltimoresun.com/maryla...0200118-hnmoetbrmbcsphe42k7sqhhqdi-story.html

Hmm, was she in the quiet car talking on her phone or listening to loud music? Does that train have a quiet car?

 

[desertflyer]

Umm.... who is we? Are you implying that everyone on this site is a white male?

And did you mean to say we do have the same set of experiences? Or did you mean to say that we don’t?

Great questions. When I wrote up my reply, it was just me and the OP. Yes, I meant to throw a "not" in that sentence. Thank you for bringing it up, I edited my post.