Amtrak Derailment Philadelphia (5/12/2015)

[Bierboy]

Interactive graphic of some of the cab controls -- http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Inside_the_cab_of_Train_188.html

 

[Ryan]

This is incorrect. ACSES II also requires a radio link. Time to get self educated. Take a look at:

http://www.tsd.org/papers/ACSEScbtc.ppt

Crap, just when I think I understand this stuff. Thanks for the correction and the powerpoint, that was very enlightening.

I'm going to go look for a job in the media somewhere, looks like I'll be perfect for the job.

 

[jis]

Ryan, you were correct about ACSES I. The Radio Link based enhancements came in ACSES II. Further enhancements allows deployment of the system even to implement ETMS as used for freight PTC in the US, and even in conjunction with regular ACSES II.

I understand there are two segments on the NEC where this will be the case, i.e. there will be parallel implementation of both ACSES II and ETMS, the latter funded by a freight railroad and a commuter agency that wants it, as I understood it. That of course might have changed or I might have misunderstood.

 

[user 1215]

This all begs the question - if PTC on the NEC has been fully funded and installed, why would what is arguably the most dangerous sections of the route be the last to get the bugs worked out rather than the first?

And in the absence of PTC, was ACSES II active?

Why are there so many red buttons?

 

[Ryan]

I'm confused by what you're asking.

This post by Jishnu has lots of quality information:

I have been staying clear of these discussions so far because the wheat to chaff ratio was so overwhelmingly on the chaff side. but let me try to see if we can bring some semblance of groundedness to the discussion.

The primary signaling system in place at that location is the old PRR Coded Track Circuit based Cab Signaling system enhanced with a second carrier frequency and an additional pulse code (270) to allow for additional signal aspects for speeds above 45mph. I believe the speed aspects that were added are 60mph, 80mph, 100mph and 150mph. So all in all the only speed limits that can be signal enforced are 20, 30, 45, 60, 80, 100, 125, and 150.

This section of track has most of the ACSES related hardware installed but ACSES is not in service in that area possibly because the radio link part of ACSES is not in place there yet.

The speed limit on the curve is 50mph, which is not enforceable at that exact value using signal speed indication as you see from the list above.

At present I don't know what signal indication is given at Shore for an eastbound train. It is probably a Clear, which leaves it to the Engineer to obey speed limits as documented in the employee timetable.

If ACSES (Advanced Civil Speed Enforcement System) were in service there would be a passive transponder in the track at Shore which would have the speed limit for the curve (its Civil Speed Limit) of 50mph and the start and stop mile reading for the limit, which the train would read as it passes over the transponder and self-enforce it even if the Engineer ignores it.

The present FRA decree is that ACSES must be in service in all segments where trains are allowed to operate at speeds over 125mph. Amtrak at present meets and exceeds that, in that it has ACSES in service on trackage beyond those mentioned in the decree. Starting 2016 it will be mandatory on all main line trackage, and Amtrak is well on its way to meet the deadline. At present all Amtrak equipment is equipped with ACSES and are not allowed to depart from an origin station with ACSES inoperative.

These are the facts (as best I know) of what protection systems are in place at that location.

Terms like ATC and PTC are pretty meaningless, except apparently for people who get impressed by confusing sounding acronyms. ATC is a especially fraught acronym, because it is applied to many different systems with varying capabilities. PTC as defined by FRA at least has a precise definition of required capabilities, but even there the actual implementation may vary quite a bit within parameters allowed by the regulation. You need to understand what the exact capabilities are to determine what could or could not have happened.

At present I don't have enough concrete information to go beyond this in terms of speculating what may or may not have happened, and am happy to wait for NTSB to complete its work.

In a post at another time in less emotionally charged environment, I will discuss what alternative means could be deployed within what is available to make it a little safer. However, everything costs money, so choices have to be made on prioritizing where the safety money is best spent for the maximum bang for the buck. So jsut because something can be done does not mean it is the thing to do in the bigger picture all the time.

Going back to your questions, assuming you are talking about ACSES when you ask "if PTC on the NEC has been fully funded and installed, why would what is arguably the most dangerous sections of the route be the last to get the bugs worked out rather than the first?", I would argue that this isn't the most dangerous section of the route. I'm also not sure what you mean by "get the bugs worked out" ACSES has been deployed for over 10 years, it's not a matter of working bugs out, it's a matter of spending the money to install the transponders.

Does that help?

 

[Guest]

This all begs the question - if PTC on the NEC has been fully funded and installed, why would what is arguably the most dangerous sections of the route be the last to get the bugs worked out rather than the first?

Seems Amtrak started from Boston, and is working its way south, getting as far as NYC so far. So, I guess Amtrak isn't installing it piecemeal, here-and-there. Plus, I am not sure we would all agree that this one curve is the most dangous section of the NER track, just last week.

From the report, Amtrak track with the system:

Amtrak on 198 miles from Boston, Massachusetts, to New Haven, Connecticut; Amtrak on 75 miles of track from New Haven, Connecticut, to New York City;

 

[jis]

Amtrak installed ACSES in those parts that were mandated by FRA for the operation of Acelas at speeds higher than 125mph first. Then they installed it in the remaining portion of Boston to New Haven. And in between their also upgraded from ACSES I to

And finally they are working through the remainder of the section between New York and Washington DC.

The work has been done as funds became available with a completion deadline of the end of 2015 as required by the FRA.

This all begs the question - if PTC on the NEC has been fully funded and installed, why would what is arguably the most dangerous sections of the route be the last to get the bugs worked out rather than the first?

Of course it is not fully installed. Certain necessary hardware is in place, but the critical office segments are not in place. Installing ACSES (which is the final component to complete installation of PTC) is not just a matter of dropping a few transponders. There is a lot of additional equipment and software that has to be installed and tested.

And no one considers this to be the most dangerous place on the NEC. This is the first time there has been an overspeed incident here since the inception of the NEC.

And in the absence of PTC, was ACSES II active?

This unfortunately shows a gross lack of understanding of what those terms stand for. ACSES II is the second phase of ACSES. ACSES II together with the Continuous Coded Track Circuit based Cab Signal system provides the PTC functionality on the NEC. PTC as defined by FRA lists a set of features and functionality that must be in place to claim PTC compliance. On the NEC CCTC and ACSES II together provide tha functionality. So no ACSES II was not available since if it were there would be PTC available.

Why are there so many red buttons?

Seriously?

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

One of my friends actaully had to audicity to post this on facebook and I qoute "Privatize Amtrak. That will make it more efficient, and do away with accidents like what happened a few days ago." I couldn't resist and tore him a new one. One of his responeses was and I quote "You have a government employee running it that due to his union cannot be fired. You have government employees as his supervisors who also cannot be fired. Privatization would stream line Amtrak and make it profitable. Not only do we the people have to pay to keep Amtrak going regardless of the number of people using it.....but now you and I have to help pay millions in lawsuits. A private owner would have insurance."

 

[StriderGDM]

One of my friends actaully had to audicity to post this on facebook and I qoute "Privatize Amtrak. That will make it more efficient, and do away with accidents like what happened a few days ago." I couldn't resist and tore him a new one. One of his responeses was and I quote "You have a government employee running it that due to his union cannot be fired. You have government employees as his supervisors who also cannot be fired. Privatization would stream line Amtrak and make it profitable. Not only do we the people have to pay to keep Amtrak going regardless of the number of people using it.....but now you and I have to help pay millions in lawsuits. A private owner would have insurance."

Well thankfully private railroads never have accidents, right? Seriously, I wonder how he feels about Luc-Megantic or the Kanawha River derailment in West Virginia. Oh and in Canada, the private owner had a bare minimum of insurance and I believe has since declared bankruptcy and I know here in NYS, getting them to have insurance is a big issue.

 

[chrsjrcj]

Well not to spark a political debate, but I fail to see how privatizing Amtrak would've prevented the accident. The PTC mandate was a federal mandate, one that the PRIVATE freight railroads have been fighting because of the cost to install.

 

[neroden]

This all begs the question - if PTC on the NEC has been fully funded and installed, why would what is arguably the most dangerous sections of the route be the last to get the bugs worked out rather than the first?

It's not at all clear to me which section of the route is the most dangerous! Maybe the most dangerous sections were, in fact, prioritized. Boston-New Haven, which does have PTC, is probably the most dangerous, really...

 

[Oldsmoboi]

One of my friends actaully had to audicity to post this on facebook and I qoute "Privatize Amtrak. That will make it more efficient, and do away with accidents like what happened a few days ago." I couldn't resist and tore him a new one. One of his responeses was and I quote "You have a government employee running it that due to his union cannot be fired. You have government employees as his supervisors who also cannot be fired. Privatization would stream line Amtrak and make it profitable. Not only do we the people have to pay to keep Amtrak going regardless of the number of people using it.....but now you and I have to help pay millions in lawsuits. A private owner would have insurance."

Just like we pay people to fly or pay people to drive?

 

[StriderGDM]

From the situational awareness angle, wouldn't a simple GPS map display of the planned route be sufficient?

Not necessarily, and ironically could possibly make things worse.

For one thing, throwing MORE information at a person doesn't necessarily help.

In addition, you can get a situation that is sort of like the cliche cartoon of a person looking at a map and saying, "Well according to this map, we're on that mountain peak over there."

People's brains are funny and can use external data wrongly in order to confirm an already existing bias.

So, simply having a GPS map might help, or, assuming (and for purposes of this send I'm making this assumption, I don't know what actually happened) this is a case of situational bias and the engineer thought he was at the curve with the higher speed, he could have looked at the map, seen the curve and "confirmed" his belief he was at the other curve.

And keep in mind, the engineer already has a lot of data coming in, signals, speed indicator in the locomotive, the alerter tone, external visual cues, and more I'm sure I'm not aware of. The more you data you toss at them, the worse it can get.

And of course, we have no idea if it was a case of situational bias.

 

[FormerOBS]

NC Hi:

Your friend will also tell you that there were absolutely no passenger rail accidents before Amtrak (when passenger rail service was "privatized"), and the passenger trains back then ran at a profit. His understanding of the Unions' role displays an equal level of ignorance. Many (maybe most?) large private railroads are self-insured. Amtrak employees are Amtrak employees; not government employees. He's been listening to too many right wing ideologues. But we should probably stay on topic.

Tom

 

[saxman]

One of my friends actaully had to audicity to post this on facebook and I qoute "Privatize Amtrak. That will make it more efficient, and do away with accidents like what happened a few days ago." I couldn't resist and tore him a new one. One of his responeses was and I quote "You have a government employee running it that due to his union cannot be fired. You have government employees as his supervisors who also cannot be fired. Privatization would stream line Amtrak and make it profitable. Not only do we the people have to pay to keep Amtrak going regardless of the number of people using it.....but now you and I have to help pay millions in lawsuits. A private owner would have insurance."

Tell him this. Private or not-private. The engineer would probably still belong to a union. Also, just about every transportation employee out there, private or not, belongs to a union.

 

[jis]

One of my friends actaully had to audicity to post this on facebook and I qoute "Privatize Amtrak. That will make it more efficient, and do away with accidents like what happened a few days ago." I couldn't resist and tore him a new one. One of his responeses was and I quote "You have a government employee running it that due to his union cannot be fired. You have government employees as his supervisors who also cannot be fired. Privatization would stream line Amtrak and make it profitable. Not only do we the people have to pay to keep Amtrak going regardless of the number of people using it.....but now you and I have to help pay millions in lawsuits. A private owner would have insurance."

Tell him this. Private or not-private. The engineer would probably still belong to a union. Also, just about every transportation employee out there, private or not, belongs to a union.

I suspect from his statements that he is way too disconnected from reality to comprehend such factual and logical statements. He is fixated in his own fantasy world and there he shall remain no matter what, and most sadly so, and make everyone else's life miserable around him. :help:

 

[dlagrua]

The first step toward privatization of the passenger railroads would be to have a railroad line willing to get into the business that Amtrak is in. The argument of who can do it better has no validity unless you have a basis for comparison. With the current political climate in Washington; I would venture to say that if a major corporation made a fair bid to buy Amtrak it would be sold to them in a heartbeat. Lets remember that Amtrak was created because the private railroads did not want to be in the passenger rail business. If you asked them today ( with select exceptions) you would probably get the same answer. The freight business has always been far more profitable, so would private industry want to acquire rail traffic that brings in far less revenue? IIRC at the peak of private passenger rail in the 1940's and 1950's, passenger service was only bringing in about a 2% net profit. By the 1960's they were losing millions.

 

[Glenn]

When your only source of news is FOX Cable news this is the kind of mindless drivel you will hear. People like this live in an echo chamber of Fox/Rush/Hannity. Facts don't matter to people who have a religious like belief in how "thinks should be done" regardless of what reality is.

 

[BrianPR3]

BREAKING: "NTSB asks FBI to join investigation into Amtrak 188 derailment; Conductor reports overhearing a conversation over the radio before accident in which engineer said he was struck, possibly by rock or worse." PER CBS NEW YORK facebook page. so my theory was right about the windows and the trains hit by bricks near by could connect

 

[Guess Guest]

Just to be fair (and balanced), that was the lead story on Fox News as well.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

CNN just reported on posts the Engineer made to a "train enthusiast site;" I wonder if that was here?

 

[George K]

CNN just reported on posts the Engineer made to a "train enthusiast site;" I wonder if that was here?

No, TrainOrders.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/64182-amtrak-derailment-philadelphia-512/?p=600733

 

[Guest]

I still can't rule out sabotage on the Amtrak derailment and to date there has not been conclusive evidence given to support the true facts although there was a few known threats against trains at the same time and two trains were hit as we know and discussed on here.

The Mayor of Philadelphia is less than helpful by trying to pin the engineer as there are always vulnerabilities snd system defects that wouod need to be ruled out first and they have not been.

There has been no evidence portrayed of distractions as of yet like we saw in Metro North. In Metro North it was clear engineer was not doing his job. In this case evidence has yet to be substantiated. I realize we need Positive speed control and we are getting it which will help these issues even if it turns out to be sabotage or whatnot.

I have used Amtrak, seen terrorism, even someone was riding on top of a train car on the LIRR by where I live and familiar with the trains. Even remembered a glitch and a nice engineer on LIRR when the new cars were shaking and he was controlling the train and they had to fix some stability issues. The door was open where he was controlling the train and I partly saw the new computers that the new trainsets had installed.

I never met Brandon but I am going to give him benefit of the doubt till proven otherwise. Metro north was known to have severe operational deficiencies where a management shakeup occured. Amtrak under Boardman was doing a decent job considering the size and scope of the Amtrak network but considering size and scale Amtrak was in good shape going forward.

 

[Rover]

BREAKING: "NTSB asks FBI to join investigation into Amtrak 188 derailment; Conductor reports overhearing a conversation over the radio before accident in which engineer said he was struck, possibly by rock or worse." PER CBS NEW YORK facebook page. so my theory was right about the windows and the trains hit by bricks near by could connect

But wait.... I thought DHS and other Govt. agencies had already been at the site.

I guess better Late, than Never, in the case of the FBI involvement!

 

[AmtrakBlue]

BREAKING: "NTSB asks FBI to join investigation into Amtrak 188 derailment; Conductor reports overhearing a conversation over the radio before accident in which engineer said he was struck, possibly by rock or worse." PER CBS NEW YORK facebook page. so my theory was right about the windows and the trains hit by bricks near by could connect

But wait.... I thought DHS and other Govt. agencies had already been at the site.

I guess better Late, than Never, in the case of the FBI involvement!

Maybe they were initially concentrating on looking for sabotage on the rails, not someone shooting or throwing things at the train(s).