Amtrak Derailment Philadelphia (5/12/2015)

[Guest]

Bingo, conductor is now reporting something hit the train. Abcnews is now reporting this as well. I figured as much, unfortunately.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

CNN just reported on posts the Engineer made to a "train enthusiast site;" I wonder if that was here?

No, TrainOrders.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/64182-amtrak-derailment-philadelphia-512/?p=600733

Thanks George-I haven't been able to keep up with all the Posts here as they come in.

 

[Hytec]

To those saying the private railroads got out of passenger trains solely because they were not profitable. Yes, that is true, but for far more complex reasons than as simply stated here. First, advances in air travel after WW-II sucked passengers away from railroads due to SPEED of travel. Second, advances in automobile technologies and development of the Interstate system sucked many more due to efficiency of PERSONAL travel. Thirdly, and the straw that broke the camel's (railroad's) back, was the cancellation of ALL mail contracts by the US Postal Service in 1967. The Postal contracts were the only revenue source that allowed private railroads to balance and offset the perennial losses from carrying passengers. The one positive aspect of carrying passengers that the railroad executives recognized was that passengers, mostly corporate executives, decision-making managers, and publically notable figures, enjoyed was the on-time performance and luxury service similar to that from a five-star hotel. It wasn't until passage of the Staggers Act in the early 1980s that railroads were deregulated and removed from the tightly-controlled choke-hold of their rates and tariffs by the Interstate Commerce Commission that had existed since the early 1900s. The Staggers Act allowed railroads to charge actual costs for transportation, rather that what Congress and the ICC thought was fair and appropriate, a pathetically laughable situation.

 

[fairviewroad]

But something hitting the train doesn't alone explain the rapid increase in speed. The alleged projectile would not cause the train to speed up.

Now, it's possible that the engineer was hit by a bullet and slumped over onto the throttle. [but wouldn't there be a bullet wound?] Or that the

engineer panicked and wanted to get his train out of harm's way. Etc. But even if it's proven that the train was hit by bullets or rocks, there is

still more to the story.

 

[keelhauled]

I think the other part of the privatization discussion is there seems to be a widespread assumption that the freight railroads would be the ones to take over Antrak. Which IMO is very unlikely, what seems more probable is the long distance network would almost entirely get canned immediately, with the possible exception of a cruise train here and there, maybe the Auto Train, if you're very optimistic maybe someone would try to take on the Florida trains/LSL. There would probably be various operators bidding on state contracts, much as commuter trains are run now. The NEC might get run wholly privately if the government assumes responsibility of maintaining the infrastructure. In any case I think any privatization scheme is going to lead to a complete fracturing of the network. Which kills connections and probably calls the viability of the whole thing into question.

But this is very far outside the scope of this thread so in the interest of contributing something I will note that it was actually the assistant conductor that reported hearing of impacts over the radio, the conductor is still hospitalized and has not given any statements as far as I know.

 

[Ryan]

But something hitting the train doesn't alone explain the rapid increase in speed. The alleged projectile would not cause the train to speed up.

It does if the throttle is bumped while the engineer is ducking, or was set to accelerate and not pulled back because the engineer is otherwise occupied trying to not get shot.

 

[TheTuck]

Unlike a car, you don't need to actively press anything to move the engine. You move the throttle and voila

But something hitting the train doesn't alone explain the rapid increase in speed. The alleged projectile would not cause the train to speed up.

Now, it's possible that the engineer was hit by a bullet and slumped over onto the throttle. [but wouldn't there be a bullet wound?] Or that the

engineer panicked and wanted to get his train out of harm's way. Etc. But even if it's proven that the train was hit by bullets or rocks, there is

still more to the story.

Unlike driving a car, the engineer doesn't need to actively continue pressing anything to move the engine. To use a bad pun, you set it and forget it. The legal speeds between North Philly and the derailment site are 60, 80, 65, 80, 50. We now know the engineer overheard the Septa engineer saying they were possibly shot at. Knowing this was directly ahead most certainly played into his psyche. If and when his windshield was hit, I'm sure his main concern became his own survival, and he definitely wasn't thinking about slowing down! I can't say I would've done any different. Unfortunately this could've distracted him long enough to forget about the 50 curve until he heard the frogs under him at Shore.

 

[NW cannonball]

But something hitting the train doesn't alone explain the rapid increase in speed. The alleged projectile would not cause the train to speed up.

It does if the throttle is bumped while the engineer is ducking, or was set to accelerate and not pulled back because the engineer is otherwise occupied trying to not get shot.

Indeed. Or many other possible scenarios.

Some control cable damaged?

Good to see the NTSB called the FBI back for more analysis. If that's the sequence of it. Coulda been vice-versa - whatever.

I've read many NTSB reports, the NTSB do have a fine-tooth comb and a very thorough checklist, and LOTS of tech resources and I think the FBI has a LOT of resources (bless government agencies, sometimes)

The investiagetion might take a while.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

The pictures of #601 look like the there are bullet holes in the windshield. At first I thought they were from gravel hitting it during the derailment but along with septa trains reporting being hit by projectiles and no mechanical problems it looks like a very plausible scenario.

Engineer has the train in full throttle, bullets, rocks, bricks whatever hits the windshield, he ducks, remembers the curve, puts the train in emergency but it's too late to get the speed under control..... makes perfect sense.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

So here's another question: Is 70mph - 106mph in 49 seconds just about max acceleration in an ACS-64 with a loaded train?

49 Seconds is also a reasonable amount of time to duck while dodging projectiles, remember the curve up ahead, get back to the controls and put the train into emergency.

 

[NW cannonball]

How many people died in motor vehicle accidents since the start of this discussion?

How many pedestrians killed?

Rail and airplane safety is important. But where is the greater danger?

Some statistical perspecctive would be welcome here, if anyone has such.

Thanks

 

[SarahZ]

How many people died in motor vehicle accidents since the start of this discussion?

"On average in 2012, 92 people were killed on the roadways of the U.S. each day in 30,800 fatal crashes."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year

Here's another good (and more credible) link:

http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+Releases/NHTSA+Data+Confirms+Traffic+Fatalities+Increased+In+2012

 

[FormerOBS]

I don't know whether 49 seconds is enough time to react or not, and I don't know whether 49 is the correct number of seconds. From the breakage pattern on the windshield, I'm guessing that it was not broken by bullet(s). Bullets generally make a small, neat, discrete circular mark. I've seen them. These marks are larger and more irregular. I'm guessing it was a brick, rock, piece of concrete, piece of metal, or something of that kind. I'm also guessing that an impact that can break that windshield would be something like the sound of a shotgun being fired inside a telephone booth. This would be, at the very least, extremely disconcerting and distracting to a person who is trying to concentrate on his work. Was that distraction enough to scramble the engineer's priorities for 49 seconds? In the meantime, the train continued to accelerate. In that time, it is reported that he reported the attack over the radio. When he finally did hit the Emergency, he also blew the whistle. So he had some of his faculties at some point; but did he have all of his faculties at the right time?

Hopefully the investigation will eventually tell us whether the broken windshield was a factor in the first place, and what actually happened.

Tom

 

[Rail Freak]

Amtrak

A MESSAGE FROM PRESIDENT AND CEO JOE BOARDMAN ON TRAIN 188

The derailment of Northeast Regional Train 188 was a terrible tragedy that we are responding to with every resource we have available. The National Transportation Safety Board is leading the investigation to determine the cause of the incident, and Amtrak is providing full cooperation.

With truly heavy hearts, we mourn those who died. Their loss leaves holes in the lives of their families and communities. On behalf of the entire Amtrak family, I offer our sincere sympathies and prayers for them and their loved ones. Amtrak takes full responsibility and deeply apologizes for our role in this tragic event.

We recognize that for everyone onboard the train, including those who suffered injuries, the healing process may be long. Within 24 hours of the incident, Amtrak set up a Family Assistance Center in Philadelphia to work closely with the family of passengers and crew on the train. We are also working with the individuals and families affected by this event to help them with transportation, lodging, and of course, medical bills and funeral expenses.

Amtrak is ever grateful to the City of Philadelphiaits first responders who bravely worked in difficult conditions, including the dark of night, to rescue and provide aid to hundreds; its hospital personnel who went into full alert as patients arrived at emergency rooms; its officials who quickly implemented a response plan; and its citizens who opened their doors to offer assistance.

Although our current focus is on the passengers and employees affected by this incident and the resulting service disruption along the Northeast Corridor, we must also take time to learn from this event. Passenger railroading is at its core about people; the safety of our passengers and employees was, is and always will be our number one priority. Our goal is to fully understand what happened and how we can prevent a similar tragedy from occurring in the future. We will also continue to focus on completing Positive Train Control implementation in the Northeast Corridor by December of 2015.

Thank you for your support of America's Railroad during this difficult time.

Sincerely,

Joe Boardman, President and Chief Executive Officer

Joe Boardman

President and Chief Executive Office

 

[George K]

In that time, it is reported that he reported the attack over the radio.

I hadn't read that. If so, it puts a very different perspective on things.

 

[fillyjonk]

I wonder if everyone who ever bought a ticket (and gave an e-mail address) got Boardman's letter.

I did - then again, I have an upcoming trip. (I was nervous when I saw A Message From Amtrak, I thought at first, oh, are they bustituting me?)

 

[George K]

From today's New York Times:

At a news conference on Friday, Robert L. Sumwalt, the safety board official who is leading the investigation, said an assistant conductor had reported that she believed she heard a radio transmission in which an engineer on a regional line said his train had been struck by a projectile and the engineer on the Amtrak train replied that his had been struck, too.



Mr. Sumwalt said that investigators had found a fist-size circular area of impact on the left side of the Amtrak train’s windshield and that they had asked the Federal Bureau of Investigation to analyze it. He said that the F.B.I. had been called in because it has the forensics expertise needed for the investigation, but that it had not yet begun its analysis.
He said that investigators had also interviewed the engineer and found him “extremely cooperative,” and that the engineer had said he was not fatigued or ill at the time of the accident. But he could not remember anything about the derailment.

 

[MrFSS]

I wonder if everyone who ever bought a ticket (and gave an e-mail address) got Boardman's letter.

I did - then again, I have an upcoming trip. (I was nervous when I saw A Message From Amtrak, I thought at first, oh, are they bustituting me?)

I got the letter sent to my AGR email address.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I keep getting letters. The 1st one was about my trip that I'm taking today which I got on Thursday. Then I've been getting notifications about the NEC and then Boardman's letter and each time wonder if my modified Rez is canceled.

 

[FormerOBS]

To be clear, the Assistant Conductor reported that she heard Bostian mention this in a radio communication with another train. I do not mean to say he reported it to a dispatcher or other authority. I don't know that. My suggestion that Bostian's thoughts and priorities were confused ("scrambled" is the word I used) are pure conjecture.

Also, my comments about bullet damage should be put in context. Those I have seen, have been in the Lexan windows of passenger cars. I have never seen one that actually penetrated the Lexan. I don't know whether the material in this locomotive windshield is the same, or if it behaves the same.

Tom

 

[willem]

I received the letter at my AGR email address. Spouse, who has not registered an email address with AGR (but who has received etickets from Amtrak by email) did not receive the letter.

 

[crescent2]

Re Boardman's email: Isn't it far too soon for him to be accepting responsibility on Amtrak's behalf?

I know the public likes it when someone accepts responsibility, but the investigation is incomplete. There are possible (I'm not saying they happened) scenarios that would in no way be Amtrak's fault, such as manufacturing defects or sabotage and other criminal acts. Isn't this legally dangerous and also very foolish at this point?

I was surprised when I read that in a post the other day, and more surprised when I got the email statement.

 

[DryCreek]

Those images of the windshield struck my "flying objects" sure appear to be the results of low caliber rifle fire.

This site has some images of hardened glass being subjected to higher caliber rifle strikes. The window they used for their experiments does seem to be a bit thicker than the specialized glass for a locomotive can though. BTW, those guys at The Box O' Truth really know how to have fun! They have a lot of neat stuff on their site.

 

[jis]

Re Boardman's email: Isn't it far too soon for him to be accepting responsibility on Amtrak's behalf?

I know the public likes it when someone accepts responsibility, but the investigation is incomplete. There are possible (I'm not saying they happened) scenarios that would in no way be Amtrak's fault, such as manufacturing defects or sabotage and other criminal acts. Isn't this legally dangerous and also very foolish at this point?

I was surprised when I read that in a post the other day, and more surprised when I got the email statement.

He may feel that there is still some residual responsibility that Amtrak has for having decided not to use the Signal Speed Control mechanism to regulate the speed on the curve or some such, irrespective of what else happened. I don;t know that to be the case for sure since I am not good at remote mind reading. But it is is just a possibility that comes to mind. The exact level of allocated responsibility will come out of the investigations and is unlikely to create a different result due to what Mr. Boardman or anyone else says as a general statement. Also, the way the insurance things work for these Amtrak has to be the primary insurer. It may be able to collect some from someone else, but that does not remove its responsibility to its customers. I am sure anyone that knows otherwise will correct me almost before I have hit "post" on this one.

 

[jis]

For those interested in hearing it from the proverbial horse's mouth, you can see the third presser from NTSB in its entirety here:




There are several pieces of information that caught my attention that I list below in no particular order:

1. Assistant Conductor 1 stated that she heard the Engineer mention in response to a radio transmission from the SEPTA train that was hit by something that he believed his engine was hit by something too.

2. In response to that NTSB has called in the FBI to investigate a specific piece of damage to the windshield on #601.

3. The specific damage being investigated is on the lower portion of the windshield on the fireman's side. (this from an answer to a specific question asked of Mr. Sumwalt)

4. They have not yet analyzed the black box back in time to the point where the acceleration began to know for sure that it was caused by human input or not. That is yet to be done. He mentioned that there are two possibilities for the acceleration (a) caused by human input (b) caused by mechanical malfunction. He also mentioned thhat unlike in airplanes, trains do not have auto throttle of that sort. (This left me wondering how the cruise control mode is set on trains and how that works).

5. Mr. Sumwalt said that FRA has committed to act on the recommendation from NTSB that came from the Chatswoth investigation for installation of inward facing video recorders in the cab, which is not part of the regulation yet.

6. The Engineer has no recollection of anything after he rang the bell for North Philadelphia, including the reported covnersation about a projectile strike.

7. NTSB is doing toxicology test covering a much broader group of drugs than the 5 required by the DOT. The toxicology work for NTSB is being conducted by FAA in their Oklahoma City facility and the results are not known yet.

8. Anyone that knows anything first hand that has relevance to the investigation is requested to please get in touch by sending email to [email protected].

TAFN

Now a personal opinion: Having heard all this, it seems to me that Hizzoner the Mayor of Philadelphia would be more useful if he deployed his Police Department to figure out and investigate what the heck was going on in North Philadelphia along the railroad tracks than fiddling around trying to investigate the Engineer, an area in which his PD has less than zero expertise. Maybe concentrating on stuff that is their primary responsibility and falls within their area of expertise would be more prudent and useful.