Amtrak dining and cafe service

[user 14106]

I agree with many of the points in posts above—even some that disagree with each other!

I think it varies by train.

My experience with the Silvers when they had traditional dining was that yes, people wanted to get to their destination, but that they wanted a relaxing vacation-like start to it on the train.

People seemed to enjoy conversations with table mates, and on a few trips some people had dressed up for dinner.

I would definitely agree with that. I would also add my flexible dining experience has been limited to trains serving it in a Viewliner 2 dining car (the Silvers and Lake Shore) which means the ability to visit with other passengers is still there and the flex dining service has been tweaked to make it a little more friendly towards people who want to sit in the diner and visit with other passengers - I have had some great conversations with other passengers even since flex dining. I’m not personally a huge fan of what they’re doing on the crescent, cardinal, and Texas eagle with the single car concept. I think it’s possible my opinion and experience may change if I was to ride one of those trains. I think at the least they ought to get the actual car back in the consist on the crescent and Cardinal - and return a separate lounge car to the Capitol and eagle.

 

[joelkfla]

Then again the complete lack of any Diner food did not kill the Silver Star either

Not it is a good or bad thing, but it is a data point. My preference personally would be to have good Diner food for half the fare.

I wish we had monthly ridership by route to see how it affected ridership on the Star vs. the Meteor. My guess is that the lack of food on the Star did drive some riders to the Meteor.

It wasn't in effect long enough to kill the Star, but the fact they reinstated food service IMO indicates that it was a failed experiment.

Was the Cafe menu on the Star expanded during that period to compensate? Were there more hot items or fresh sandwiches available?

 

[MARC Rider]

Anyone have any recent experience on the Capitol Limited, another of the eastern trains that's had its dining downgraded? I rode it last Fall, and it was, of course, all flex food in their usual CCC, which also had to serve as the cafe car for coach passengers, there being no Sightseer Lounge. The dining crew had no problem with us using the CCC for a lounge, even when they opened the cafe car part for coach passengers. While it wasn't quite as nice as the usual Capitol Limited experience, it wasn't really all that bad. I hope they're not pulling a Texas Eagle/Crescent deal and forcing people to remain at their seats the whole trip.

 

[user 14106]

This is true, and I think it should be pointed out that long-distance passenger rail is not the only line of business where service standards and quality have deteriorated. The most obvious parallel is with the airlines. Back in the dinosaur days of regulated airlines, we all used to complain about the meals served in domestic coach. Now, lack of food service is a given, yet no one is going to say that such outfits as Southwest Airlines, Spirit, etc. were doing this to "kill airline service." And even on the longer international flights, where meals are still served in coach, those meals (at least on some major American Airlines that shall not be named which begins with a "U") are so horrible they make flex food look good. Does that mean that particular airline is trying to "kill" international flights?

(By the way, back in the 1970s when I would fly to college, I made it a point to book flights where meals were served. This is partly because even though we complained about the food, it really wasn't that bad, but also partly because if I wasn't fed on the flight, I'd have to find something to eat at the airport, and the only thing worse than 1970s airline food was 1970s airport food!)

You have pretty much captured the essence of my point. And I’m sure my limited years of train riding (as compared to others) is showing a bit in my posts about this subject. When I started riding Amtrak the pacific parlor car was a thing of the past. The first time I was on the Star - it was during the starvation run. For me the flex meals and a VL2 diner in the consist is a huge upgrade over that first trip with just a single cafe car. I did have traditional dining on the crescent and meteor - - it was tasty but I wouldn’t have called it exceptional (better than flex but not spectacularly) in fact in comparison what they are doing now on the western trains is way better than my traditional dining experiences pre pandemic. I would also say the food quality on the auto train has trended better in the last two years since when I first started riding it. So I’m an example / I can only relate to what I myself have experienced. And for me I’ve actually seen some improvements in my limited time.

 

[Northwestern]

People will call me names but I actually really like having only sleeping car and business class passengers in the diner. It cuts the chances of awkward table mates way down.

I’ve been loving my conversations with table mates on Amtrak and Alaska railroad this past month.

One of the reasons I miss the Parlor Car, on the Coast Starlight, has to do with meeting interesting people. I've also met interesting people in the dining car on the "Canadian" on the way to Jasper. The Canadian has a lot of passengers from other countries, so conversations are usually interesting and informative. I once met a young couple from Australia, at dinner, and we exchanged a lot of questions and answers. I told the couple that they only thing I know about Australia was learned from the old Australia based "Crocodile Hunter" program with Steve Irwin. They never watched "The Crocodile Hunter" as it didn't air in Australia, only the US and Canada.

Excursion trains such as the Alaska RR and the Rocky Mountaineer are also good for meeting people.

 

[Cal]

And even on the longer international flights, where meals are still served in coach, those meals (at least on some major American Airlines that shall not be named which begins with a "U") are so horrible they make flex food look good.

My experience hasn't really met with this, however I don't fly international on American carriers.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Excursion trains such as the Alaska RR and the Rocky Mountaineer are also good for meeting people.

Small correction - Alaska Railroad is not an excursion train. It’s very much a real working railroad and I’ve met many Alaskans while riding it.

Even tourists are mostly using it for actual transportation in addition to enjoying the great views.

 

[TheCrescent]

This is true, and I think it should be pointed out that long-distance passenger rail is not the only line of business where service standards and quality have deteriorated. The most obvious parallel is with the airlines. Back in the dinosaur days of regulated airlines, we all used to complain about the meals served in domestic coach. Now, lack of food service is a given, yet no one is going to say that such outfits as Southwest Airlines, Spirit, etc. were doing this to "kill airline service." And even on the longer international flights, where meals are still served in coach, those meals (at least on some major American Airlines that shall not be named which begins with a "U") are so horrible they make flex food look good. Does that mean that particular airline is trying to "kill" international flights?

(By the way, back in the 1970s when I would fly to college, I made it a point to book flights where meals were served. This is partly because even though we complained about the food, it really wasn't that bad, but also partly because if I wasn't fed on the flight, I'd have to find something to eat at the airport, and the only thing worse than 1970s airline food was 1970s airport food!)

Service standards in first class on airlines have gone up significantly and pricing has gone down.

20 years ago, airline first class was ridiculously expensive and most people in first class were frequent flyers with free upgrades.

Now, at least on my regular commute, first class is 25%-40% more than coach. I usually pay for it even though I might get a free upgrade.

And service standards have gone up. I recall being upgraded on US Airways for free and getting a nightmarish cold chicken dinner in a box. Now while I pay for first class, the food and drinks are pretty good. Unlimited alcohol and meals when offered are certainly better than Flexible Dining; at least they’re on plates and with glasses.

 

[joelkfla]

Small correction - Alaska Railroad is not an excursion train. It’s very much a real working railroad and I’ve met many Alaskans while riding it.

Even tourists are mostly using it for actual transportation in addition to enjoying the great views.

It's a hybrid. Clearly the GoldStar service is intended for sightseers.

 

[como]

This is true, and I think it should be pointed out that long-distance passenger rail is not the only line of business where service standards and quality have deteriorated. The most obvious parallel is with the airlines. Back in the dinosaur days of regulated airlines, we all used to complain about the meals served in domestic coach. Now, lack of food service is a given, yet no one is going to say that such outfits as Southwest Airlines, Spirit, etc. were doing this to "kill airline service." And even on the longer international flights, where meals are still served in coach, those meals (at least on some major American Airlines that shall not be named which begins with a "U") are so horrible they make flex food look good. Does that mean that particular airline is trying to "kill" international flights?

(By the way, back in the 1970s when I would fly to college, I made it a point to book flights where meals were served. This is partly because even though we complained about the food, it really wasn't that bad, but also partly because if I wasn't fed on the flight, I'd have to find something to eat at the airport, and the only thing worse than 1970s airline food was 1970s airport food!)

I've been on international flights in coach in the last year. One American airline starting with with an "A" had a half frozen dinner meal. The second leg of the trip flight on an international airline starting with "B" featured frozen juice and the nastiest omlet ever made.

My wife and I usually take an overnight coach trip on Amtrak each year. We usually eat bring left overs from Christmas dinner and share a bottle of wine. It's nice to eat breakfast in the diner when it is available but the food in the cafe car is more reasonably priced and not that bad. The option to buy flex meals in the cafe car for a price less than what is charged in the diner would be a great option.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Now, lack of food service is a given, yet no one is going to say that such outfits as Southwest Airlines, Spirit, etc. were doing this to "kill airline service."

I would say they killed full service airline standards.

And even on the longer international flights, where meals are still served in coach, those meals (at least on some major American Airlines that shall not be named which begins with a "U") are so horrible they make flex food look good. Does that mean that particular airline is trying to "kill" international flights?

Are you comparing coach class airline food to sleeper class train food? The US3 certainly killed my enthusiasm for flying US airlines internationally and if they were the only option I'd travel less often.

 

[PaTrainFan]

Anyone have any recent experience on the Capitol Limited, another of the eastern trains that's had its dining downgraded? I rode it last Fall, and it was, of course, all flex food in their usual CCC, which also had to serve as the cafe car for coach passengers, there being no Sightseer Lounge. The dining crew had no problem with us using the CCC for a lounge, even when they opened the cafe car part for coach passengers. While it wasn't quite as nice as the usual Capitol Limited experience, it wasn't really all that bad. I hope they're not pulling a Texas Eagle/Crescent deal and forcing people to remain at their seats the whole trip.

I was on 30 earlier this summer. I had the short ribs which, in all honesty, weren't that bad. But as many have pointed out the presentation is poor and the service just isn't what you'd like. I certainly would have preferred traditional dining but what I had sufficed, if barely. I did not stick around to see if I would be kicked out after dinner hours. In a few weeks I'll be going westbound so I am curious what the breakfast experience will be, and will finally have my first opportunity with reconstituted traditional dining on the Empire Builder, which I am very much looking forward to.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

It's a hybrid. Clearly the GoldStar service is intended for sightseers.

absolutely. Although I have met Alaskans in Goldstar as well using it for transportation. But most Alaskans are back in adventure class.

By the way, I thought the dining car experiences I had on the coast starlight were better than gold star on the Alaska Railroad. At least Amtrak gives you a choice of meal times, served desserts and doesn’t beg for tips.

I think we will see traditional dining return to the east coast trains - just a matter of time. *knocks on Pullman car for good luck*

 

[user 14106]

I think we will see traditional dining return to the east coast trains - just a matter of time. *knocks on Pullman car for good luck*

I would agree with this / it may not be exactly the same as out west. But I think improvements are coming even if they don’t totally retire the “flexible dining” moniker.

 

[zephyr17]

And they seem to survive the trip on the meals offered.

I doubt that simple survival is the expectation of passengers paying hundreds of dollars for sleeper accommodations. It certainly is not mine.

If that is indeed the case, then Amtrak could provide surplus MREs and some hot water and be done with it.

 

[zephyr17]

I would agree with this / it may not be exactly the same as out west. But I think improvements are coming even if they don’t totally retire the “flexible dining” moniker.

I hope so, I think a more limited menu but similar food and preparation to western "traditional" is perfectly acceptable. I understand that was an option that has been discussed.

If they brought back some of the original intent of "flexible dining", the ability to choose to eat any time and not be restricted to set hours, that would be great. Of course, that aspect was lost very early on if it was implemented at all.

Since "flexible dining" is no more flexible than traditional dining, and is now associated with fairly awful food, that branding should probably be retired if and when Amtrak improves their dining service on eastern trains and the Eaglette.

Of equal if not more importance than the food is the staffing and equipment levels. There should be at least cafe and diner LSAs and cafe service and seating available to coach passengers during meal hours. Especially if they continue to be denied access to the diner. What has been reported happening on the Crescent that coach passengers are entirely denied food service during dining service is a travesty.

 

[user 14106]

I doubt that simple survival is the expectation of passengers paying hundreds of dollars for sleeper accommodations. It certainly is not mine.

If that is indeed the case, then Amtrak could provide surplus MREs and some hot water and be done with it.

I think you somewhat miss the point of what I was arguing and I think that’s somewhat an exaggeration - but to avoid overdoing the point and beating a dead horse - will leave it there.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I think you somewhat miss the point of what I was arguing and I think that’s somewhat an exaggeration - but to avoid overdoing the point and beating a dead horse - will leave it there.

What is the bare minimum?

I mean you can take away all food service and people would still ride. So is that good enough?

 

[trimetbusfan]

What has been reported happening on the Crescent that coach passengers are entirely denied food service during dining service is a travesty.

It’s true. I was shocked. The cafe was only open to Coach passengers (maybe) 3-5 hours over the coarse of the day. The rest of the day the attendant was either on his meal break or preparing sleeper flex meals.

 

[tricia]

This is true, and I think it should be pointed out that long-distance passenger rail is not the only line of business where service standards and quality have deteriorated. The most obvious parallel is with the airlines. Back in the dinosaur days of regulated airlines, we all used to complain about the meals served in domestic coach. Now, lack of food service is a given, yet no one is going to say that such outfits as Southwest Airlines, Spirit, etc. were doing this to "kill airline service." And even on the longer international flights, where meals are still served in coach, those meals (at least on some major American Airlines that shall not be named which begins with a "U") are so horrible they make flex food look good. Does that mean that particular airline is trying to "kill" international flights?

(By the way, back in the 1970s when I would fly to college, I made it a point to book flights where meals were served. This is partly because even though we complained about the food, it really wasn't that bad, but also partly because if I wasn't fed on the flight, I'd have to find something to eat at the airport, and the only thing worse than 1970s airline food was 1970s airport food!)

Airplane passengers have very different food needs from long-distance train passengers. There are no flights that last the 20-30 hours of Amtrak's eastern LD trains, let alone the 2 nights most western trains run.

 

[user 14106]

What is the bare minimum?

I mean you can take away all food service and people would still ride. So is that good enough?

There is a difference between saying the downgrade is "killing the train" or designed to kill the train and that it has no impact whatsoever - I was arguing against the former and not the latter. Obviously the latter isn't true and I have not once argued that - it's a obviously a major issue for many people here and other places including some that have swore off these particular trains so obviously it has some impact on the market. But enough people are still riding despite the downgrade to maintain these trains (and many likely used to it at this point given its been a few years now) - and at least from my observation on the Silvers and Lake Shore many people seem to ok with it enough that it isn't ruining the train or sleeping car accommodations for them. That doesn't mean people wouldn't prefer something better (I certainly would.) But it is not at the point yet where it's ruining for enough people where it's killing the train.

I don't find the meals terrible - I like what they serve on Acela and to me this is pretty similar to that (though Acela admittedly has a much better presentation with everything being plated). In fact most of the complaints I've heard on board about it have been employees. Again I'm not everyone - obviously many here feel it's a greater issue than I do and that's fine. I am also not saying they should do the bare minimum - they seemed to try that on the Star with a Cafe only approach and felt it wasn't successful enough that they chose to bring flex (along with the VL2 diner) over to the Star - though the Star's gain eventually became the Crescent's lost as they essentially took the Crescent's VL2 diners and gave them to the Star. While I am ok with the meals, they certainly pale in comparison to traditional dining in the west and I think everyone would be happy if they brought that over (or a version of that tailored more for the eastern trains) including myself - so at the end of the day we may disagree on some points but we certainly agree that it could be (and should be) better.

 

[Cal]

There are no flights that last the 20-30 hours of Amtrak's eastern LD trains

The CONO, LSL, and Capitol Limited are all 18 or 19 hours and while commercial flight's that long aren't everywhere, they do exist.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The CONO, LSL, and Capitol Limited are all 18 or 19 hours and while commercial flight's that long aren't everywhere, they do exist.

and I’m pretty sure those flights offer food and beverage service.

 

[Trollopian]

People will call me names but I actually really like having only sleeping car and business class passengers in the diner. It cuts the chances of awkward table mates way down.

I’ve been loving my conversations with table mates on Amtrak and Alaska railroad this past month.

Ah, well. Eating With Strangers is a classic peril of train travel. I don't think that Amtrak crews have quite the "unerring judgment" of social strata that prevailed on the legendary Orient Express circa 1934:

[Hercule Poirot] sipped his wine. Then, leaning back, he ran his eye thoughtfully round
the dining-car...

At the table opposite them were three men. They were, he guessed, single
travellers graded and placed there by the unerring judgment of the restaurant
attendants. A big swarthy Italian was picking his teeth with gusto. Opposite him
a spare neat Englishman had the expressionless disapproving face of the well-
trained servant. Next to the Englishman was a big American in a loud suit -
possibly a commercial traveller.

“You’ve got to put it over big,” he was saying in a loud, nasal voice.

The Italian removed his toothpick to gesticulate with it freely.

“Sure,” he said. “That whatta I say alia de time.”

The Englishman looked out of the window and coughed.

 

[jis]

The CONO, LSL, and Capitol Limited are all 18 or 19 hours and while commercial flight's that long aren't everywhere, they do exist.

I will be on a 17 hour one on Sept 1 (DEL-ORD) in the Sleeper er Polaris and there should be ample reasonably good food served in two and a half meals.