Amtrak dining and cafe service

[Palmland]

Yes, on our AutoTrain trip last Wednesday our breakfast was improved from the cold roll, pastry and fruit we had in May. I was disappointed the attendant in the sleeper lounge is still MIA but probably understandable. They served few passengers and it’s not too difficult to walk a few cars to the coach lounge/cafe. It was also nice that our excellent SCA, Debbie, brought us a snack pack around noon since we were several hours late.

We had left a couple hours late but our late dinner was served efficiently by a friendly server. I particularly liked that she came around to give us a refill on wine! Although I thought it was good, my wife did not care for the sauce on the flat iron. Good to see that ice cream was available.

We keep in contact with our outstanding server, Ernest, we had on another trip. He met us on arrival at Lorton to say hi. Good customer service goes a long way.

 

[user 14106]

In an article for trains magazine for the December edition they did an article about Amtrak’s capacity issues. They interviewed Harris about it and food came up. He directly mentioned the return of improved food service to the Meteor and Star using some of what’s working out west. They are starting with these trains as they are nearly as long as the coast starlight and apparently the math of food costs for the flexible dining trains makes less sense the longer the train gets as the flex meals have higher food costs on a per meal basis. The more meal periods there are it starts to eat into whatever was saved on labor. After they get whatever the new setup is going on the silvers they plan to look at options for the other eastern trains and the CONO and Eagle.

 

[zephyr17]

They are starting with these trains as they are nearly as long as the coast starlight and apparently the math of food costs for the flexible dining trains makes less sense the longer the train gets as the flex meals have higher food costs on a per meal basis. The more meal periods there are it starts to eat into whatever was saved on labor.

No, nobody was able to run the numbers in advance on that decision, right? And of course, they didn't terminate the eastern chefs (not furloughed subject to recall, but fired) based on them.

Of course, the decision was not based on cost metrics in any case, according to the rationale released at the time. It was a service improvement since "the millennials" didn't like community seating and set meal periods. Apparently their market research revealed "the millennials" wanted plastic food they could eat in set meal periods, since the flex part of flex never happened. Most millennials I know would run screaming at the sight of these fat and sodium bombs.

Nope, nobody looked at costs, uh-unh. Didn't happen. So they could not have gotten the original cost analysis wrong.

Amtrak executive management continues to impress me. Although it does seem maybe having finally realized they were in a hole they dug themselves with a steam shovel, they just may have quit digging. Maybe we'll see some form of traditional dining in the east about the same time as they get the maintenance backlog back on the road. Just imagine, being able to trust that your confirmed sleeping car accommodation won't be yanked out from under and being able to eat actual food on the same trip. That'll be a fine day, assuming I live to see it.

 

[user 14106]

No, nobody was able to run the numbers in advance on that decision, right?

Of course, the decision was not based on cost metrics in any case, according to the rationale released at the time. It was a service improvement since "the millennials" didn't like community seating and set meal periods. Apparently their market research revealed "the millennials" wanted plastic food they could eat in set meal periods, since the flex part of flex never happened. Most millennials I know would run screaming at the sight of these fat and sodium bombs.

Nope, nobody looked at costs, uh-unh. Didn't happen. So they could not have gotten the original cost analysis wrong.

Amtrak executive management continues to impress me.

Flex was surely a bone headed decision but I’ll give credit if they follow through and put something better in place though. While Amtrak has a lot of problems one thing I do have to give some credit for is the quality of meals for traditional dining since they brought it back. The Auto Train food has also improved. Both exceed the quality of pre pandemic and the flowers on the table and metal flatware is a nice touch. Hopefully someday the China will make an appearance.

 

[MARC Rider]

. . . apparently the math of food costs for the flexible dining trains makes less sense the longer the train gets as the flex meals have higher food costs on a per meal basis. The more meal periods there are it starts to eat into whatever was saved on labor. After they get whatever the new setup is going on the silvers they plan to look at options for the other eastern trains and the CONO and Eagle.

If this is the case, then why are they not prioritizing improved food service on the Eagle, as its scheduled travel time is more than that of the Silvers.

 

[user 14106]

If this is the case, then why are they not prioritizing improved food service on the Eagle, as its scheduled travel time is more than that of the Silvers.

Probably ridership. He also cited ridership volume along with the long runtime when mentioning the reasoning for silvers. Those trains are also already running with a dining car and separate lounge so they are ready to go from an operational standpoint. The eagle would likely require getting sightseer lounges out of storage most likely which would be a capital overhaul decision. I suppose they could theoretically run it and the cafe out of the single dining car but they’d probably want to get a lounge car back in place if they’re going to go back to traditional meals.

 

[zephyr17]

If this is the case, then why are they not prioritizing improved food service on the Eagle, as its scheduled travel time is more than that of the Silvers.

Probably ridership. He also cited ridership volume along with the long runtime when mentioning the reasoning for silvers. Those trains are also already running with a dining car and separate lounge so they are ready to go from an operational standpoint. The eagle would likely require getting sightseer lounges out of storage most likely which would be a capital overhaul decision. I suppose they could theoretically run it and the cafe out of the single dining car but they’d probably want to get a lounge car back in place if they’re going to go back to traditional meals.

If that is the case, why did they pull it from the Silvers at all? As to ridership, while there is more general demand on the Silvers, the Eaglettes ridership is being artificially limited by the equipment shortages. And why should they not get all Sightseers, at least those not wreck damaged, back on the road? Is it some kind of policy to force sleeper passengers to eat plastic food confined in their rooms? I seem to recall the Sightseers were actually withdrawn from the Eagle prior to the Builder and SW Chief wrecks in any case.

 

[zephyr17]

Flex was surely a bone headed decision but I’ll give credit if they follow through and put something better in place though. While Amtrak has a lot of problems one thing I do have to give some credit for is the quality of meals for traditional dining since they brought it back. The Auto Train food has also improved. Both exceed the quality of pre pandemic and the flowers on the table and metal flatware is a nice touch. Hopefully someday the China will make an appearance.

Have to agree there, the current iteration of traditional dining is the best it has been in some years. Prior to COVID It had been going downhill since at least the implementation of SDS.

I don't really care about china, but I would like some variation between trains as they used to have or some sort of rotating menu. The same menu for days straight gets old.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Probably ridership. He also cited ridership volume along with the long runtime when mentioning the reasoning for silvers. Those trains are also already running with a dining car and separate lounge so they are ready to go from an operational standpoint. The eagle would likely require getting sightseer lounges out of storage most likely which would be a capital overhaul decision. I suppose they could theoretically run it and the cafe out of the single dining car but they’d probably want to get a lounge car back in place if they’re going to go back to traditional meals.

Since the Eaglette runs with a CCC, which can serve as a Diner with a Full downstairs Kitchen, and as a Cafe in what has come to known as the Crews Lounge on the short end of the Car, No need to wait on a Sightseer Lounge to go back to Traditional Dining much as the 31+ Hour Train Cries out for one!

 

[zephyr17]

Cafe in what has come to known as the Crews Lounge on the short end of the Car

 

[joelkfla]

If that is the case, why did they pull it from the Silvers at all? As to ridership, while there is more general demand on the Silvers, the Eaglettes ridership is being artificially limited by the equipment shortages.

In FY19, Eagle ridership was 91% of the Meteor's.

 

[jis]

To be more meaningful comparison one needs to look at riders per mile or something like that.

As an extreme example a single car running 10,000 miles provides the same number of seat miles as 10 cars traveling 1000 miles.

 

[joelkfla]

To be more meaningful comparison one needs to look at riders per mile or something like that.

As an extreme example a single car running 10,000 miles provides the same number of seat miles as 10 cars traveling 1000 miles.

Mileage from CHI-SAS is about 100 mi. less than NYP-MIA, so those are also comparable. I don't know whether the Eagle's ridership number includes passengers riding only west of SAS, and if so how much.

But I'm not sure the mileage is really significant in this argument. If you're looking at the number of passengers potentially impacted by Flex vs. Traditional, they only have to be onboard for 1 meal period.

 

[jis]

Mileage from CHI-SAS is about 100 mi. less than NYP-MIA, so those are also comparable. I don't know whether the Eagle's ridership number includes passengers riding only west of SAS, and if so how much.

But I'm not sure the mileage is really significant in this argument. If you're looking at the number of passengers potentially impacted by Flex vs. Traditional, they only have to be onboard for 1 meal period.

Additionally, we don't know who is on board one meal period and who is not, and total number of passengers are not affected by Flex meals anyway, since they don't get even that. Only Sleeper passengers. I still think the total passenger based analysis is flawed for several reasons. Yes it is a proxy of sorts, but I would not base any decisions on it.

 

[JWM]

The sooner full dining car service with the setups now being used on the western trains is in place on the Meteor, Star and Crescent the better. Again, any overnight train should have full dining car service. That means the LSL, CL, Cardinal, TE and those mentioned above.

 

[user 14106]

Here is a 2019 RPA Comparison that provides a little more detail on statistics. I don't think the Florida services are a terrible choice to start with for dining service - the northeast to Florida is certainly one of Amtrak's biggest long distance travel markets if one includes all 3 trains:

Meteor https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3459/19.pdf
Eagle https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3444/32.pdf

 

[west point]

Even though day trains I would add next Palmetto and Carolinian.

 

[fdaley]

the flex meals have higher food costs on a per meal basis.

Think about that explanation for a minute: According to Harris, the flex meals have higher food costs than the traditional meals, which are of vastly superior quality. And so, he says, this extra cost adds up over longer runs with more meal periods, partially negating the labor savings from not having a chef or other staff needed for traditional dining service. Does that really seem credible?

I would think a much bigger issue would be that, particularly over the longest trips, serving flex meals across multiple meal periods is more likely to alienate and drive away the highest value customers. A couple of thousand-dollar sleeper rooms that never sell on any given departure of the Crescent seems like a bigger cash hole to fill than the difference between the food cost of the two kinds of meals.

 

[jis]

For reinstating traditional dining on the Crescent first they have to reinstate the Diner Car on it, which involves moving several VLII Diners from the Mothball Line to the In Service Line, which they apparently don't have any plan for in the next year or two. I hope that plan changes sometime soon.

 

[BlackDiamond]

They are starting with these trains as they are nearly as long as the coast starlight and apparently the math of food costs for the flexible dining trains makes less sense the longer the train gets as the flex meals have higher food costs on a per meal basis. The more meal periods there are it starts to eat into whatever was saved on labor.

In that case I would think the Lake Shore Limited would be a prime candidate with its 3 sleepers worth of passengers (2 NY and 1 Boston).

 

[jis]

In that case I would think the Lake Shore Limited would be a prime candidate with its 3 sleepers worth of passengers (2 NY and 1 Boston).

It is a much shorter run though with very few meals.

Historically, when they had shortage of Diners they had dinged the LSL first. These days it seems that role has been transferred to the Crescent, exactly using what logic I fail to see. But then I fail to see any logic in a lot of things that Amtrak does these days, so it may just be my failing in seeing the brilliance.

 

[user 14106]

It actually does seem credible to me. I can definitely see the economics of when flex dining would save money and am also not surprised to hear that the food costs per passenger are higher. I will admit I read into a bit what he said he didn't use my words exactly - if you look at the trains article you'll see his exact words but it's pretty easy to draw those conclusions based on what he said about flex. I had heard similar things prior that the food costs per passenger are higher and that it makes the most sense when you're serving a smaller amount of meals per trip for a smaller number of passengers. The Star and Meteor both carry more sleeper passengers than the Eagle does - so that alone is a potential explanation of why they are getting it first. Traditional dining is more labor intensive (not just for Amtrak but also their Aramark costs as well as they need people to prepare the sous vide and other precooked items from the raw ingredients in the commissary kitchens - more ordering involved - etc. Flex meals are prepared by that new horizons company so the commissary simply has to order and store those and deliver them to the train. Basically the kitchen is preparing the salads that's about it for flex.) But the more passengers and more meal periods I can see where the math stops working for flex. It has never been my experience that the flexible dining food is excessively poor quality. It's really to me more about the experience for the money paid for a sleeper and of course a plated prepared meal on board is going to be better than any prepackaged meal prepped in some random kitchen on Long Island that's reheated in a plastic container. If prepared properly the flex meals are not excessively bad so long as you don't have dietary sensitivities but the presentation and experience is less than stellar.

 

[jis]

It has to a large extent been about presentation. Almost similarly prepared meals are served in Domestic First Class on airlines, but they are plated in a more presentable form, heated more competently and uniformly, and presented on credible utensils on trays with table cloth and actual metal silverware. That is all it takes to make it work. But that is somewhat contrary to single minded attempts to get rid of all labor costs.

My hope is that since all the airlines that run First Class service are now improving food quality and service by leaps and bounds, Amtrak will catch on one of these days. Afterall they followed the airlines down into the dumps, so being a wanna be airline, maybe they will crawl back up with them.

 

[user 14106]

It has to a large extent been about presentation. Almost similarly prepared meals are served in Domestic First Class on airlines, but they are plated in a more presentable form and presented on credible utensils on trays with table cloth and actual metal silverware. That is al it takes to make it work. But that is somewhat contrary to single minded attempts tog et rid of all labor costs.

My hope is that since all the airlines that run First Class service are now improving food quality and service by leaps and bounds, Amtrak will catch on one of these days. Afterall they followed the airlines down into the dumps, so being a wanna be airline, maybe they will crawl back up with them.

And many of those meals are likely delivered to airlines the same way - the company that makes the plastic containers that the flex meals are sent in is designs containers basically for airline meals. Some airlines likely get meals delivered in those exact same plastic containers but some of them take the time to transfer things over to plates and try to make a decent presentation.

 

[jis]

I would hasten to add that the fare served in International upper class on airlines is a different kettle of fish altogether, specially where items are brought out one by one and placed within a table setting. Amtrak even in its Diners with traditional meals does not quite rise to that level.