Amtrak Guest Rewards 2.0 Coming January 2016

[Just-Thinking-51]

Going to Portland from Chicago via LA. How is that not gaming the system?

That type of routing is why these changes are going to occur. 4 nights on a train vs 2 nights on a train if you go directly on the Empire Bulider. Under the old system it was a 2 zone reward, both routes. Now if you want to go the long way, you can pay (points or cash) for those 2 extra nights. Seem better to me.

Now about the Auto Train....

 

[jis]

Well, 48,197 points is a lot more than just "greater than 29,000"... LOL

If you go straight on the EB in a roomette it is less than 15,000 points. Via LAX on the same date is ~29,000 points (just a random date like Feb 15th 2016)

On the date that you chose the comparison really is 48,000 points vs. no free ride using AGR, just pay the fare, since it is a blackout date as pointed out by others.

However, no one is contesting the basic fact that it is relatively easy to find a routing and a bucket where you'd get clobbered with the new system when compared to the current system, of redemption. That is the entire purpose of this change, to actually charge in points something proportional to the actual cost of the trip. So why is everyone surprised? Dismayed yes, me too. But if one believes that Amtrak is supposed to be run as a business I can;t really formulate an argument that says that it should not charge appropriately for a service even when it is in AGR points, no matter how much I hate the consequences of all this on my AGR gaming lifestyle.

 

[rtabern]

I just randomly picked November 24th. Didn't realize it was that close to Thanksigving and was a blackout date.

But, fine, let's use another random date -- October 10, 2015 -- gathering weekend (not that I usually go, as I usually work to narrate a steam engine trip out of MSP that weekend).

This is EVEN WORSE than the previous example.

A roomette from CHI to PDX via LAX is going for $1,583 for 2 people. This would be 20,000 points under the current system, and it looks like 54,614 under the new system. Dude, this is almost TRIPLE the redemption cost.

Sure, you can put lipstick on a pig -- but you can't dress up how this new program is going to royally screw people trying to take bedrooms out west. Sure, your redemption for short hauls may go down, but I enjoy longer trips in bedrooms. A redemption going from 20,000 to 54,000 is un-acceptible!!!

The Tuesday of Thanksgiving week? I'm wildly unsurprised that the tickets are going to be priced out of this world.

Not to mention that 11/24/15 is an AGR blackout date, so a 20,000 point, two-zone roomette redemption CHI-PDX is not permitted under the present program.

 

[rtabern]

How do you get 4 nights on the train? That is 3 nights on the train -- 2 on #3 (SWC) and 1 on #14 (CS)... unless you're counting on the Starlight being that late it might be 2 nights on that train.

Going to Portland from Chicago via LA. How is that not gaming the system?

That type of routing is why these changes are going to occur. 4 nights on a train vs 2 nights on a train if you go directly on the Empire Bulider. Under the old system it was a 2 zone reward, both routes. Now if you want to go the long way, you can pay (points or cash) for those 2 extra nights. Seem better to me.

Now about the Auto Train....

 

[rtabern]

Check out October 7th too --- $1,852 is the price for CHI-PDX via LAX in a roomette. 20,000 points OLD SYSTEM ---- 63,894 NEW SYSTEM.

MORE THAN TRIPLE THE POINTS COST!!!!

I just randomly picked November 24th. Didn't realize it was that close to Thanksigving and was a blackout date.

But, fine, let's use another random date -- October 10, 2015 -- gathering weekend (not that I usually go, as I usually work to narrate a steam engine trip out of MSP that weekend).

This is EVEN WORSE than the previous example.

A roomette from CHI to PDX via LAX is going for $1,583 for 2 people. This would be 20,000 points under the current system, and it looks like 54,614 under the new system. Dude, this is almost TRIPLE the redemption cost.

Sure, you can put lipstick on a pig -- but you can't dress up how this new program is going to royally screw people trying to take bedrooms out west. Sure, your redemption for short hauls may go down, but I enjoy longer trips in bedrooms. A redemption going from 20,000 to 54,000 is un-acceptible!!!

The Tuesday of Thanksgiving week? I'm wildly unsurprised that the tickets are going to be priced out of this world.

Not to mention that 11/24/15 is an AGR blackout date, so a 20,000 point, two-zone roomette redemption CHI-PDX is not permitted under the present program.

 

[jebr]

So, let me get this right... (an example of how horrible the new AGR redemption process will be)

Let's use November 24, 2015 as an example...

If I wanted a roomette from Chicago to Portland, OR (via LAX using #3 and #14) -- it would cost me 20,000 points under the old system.

If I wanted a roomette from Chicago to Portland, OR (via LAX using #3 and #14) -- it would cost $1397.00 -- which according to the calculator on the new AGR page -- would be 48,197 points under the new system.

So, 20,000 points OLD system and 48,197 points NEW system? WTF?????? That is more than a 100% de-valuation!!!

I can't believe there isn't more of an out-cry over this. Again, I know I am burning through my points and might not even use AGR anymore after 2/28/17 when my S+ status will expire.

I'm only seeing $1197 (or 41,297) as the fare for two people in a roomette via LAX (3/14) for two people. This is for November 24.

Regardless, the "direct" route (via the Builder) is $708 for two people, or 24,426 points. That's about a 25% increase over a normal redemption. Considering that I can actually make the redemption (under the old system I couldn't do it at any number of points) I'd honestly consider that a net win. The indirect routes (or routes with connections) lose out big, but many people (I would argue most people, but unfortunately I don't have the statistics to back that up) will take the most direct route available, even on a points redemption.

 

[BCL]

I can't believe there isn't more of an out-cry over this. Again, I know I am burning through my points and might not even use AGR anymore after 2/28/17 when my S+ status will expire.

My real beef, as stated earlier, was the 100 point minimum going away. There is no way I am going to spend $5,000 a year on Amtrak travel that will be required now to maintain Select Plus. Honestly --- If I am going to spend that much on a train trip it will be something much nice than Amtrak (VIA or private rail charter). Access to Amtrak lounges and United lounges was worth the $1000 or so a year doing "point runs"... not $5,000. Congrats to Anthony for all his hard work... he is a good guy and one of my good friends... but of course, all of the changes he made benefit Amtrak and not really me. So while Amtrak has to do what it has to do... and so do I. I don't see AGR being something I will wish to be involved with past 2/28/17. I wonder how many people will drop off the Select Plus rosters now. Maybe that was the goal though afterall --- maybe too many people had S+ and lounge access --- and they were looking to trim that down a little??!? Still, I guess that $1,000 I would spend on point runs and the 100-200 stats to the Hiawatha I would do -- can go somewhere else... probably United Club.

Probably more like a "soft landing" to Select. At least that's what's been claimed. I calculated the rock bottom cheapest way to get to S+ that would be reasonable to achieve (i.e. not involving Berkeley-Emeryville), and it was during a weekend 50% off special requiring 25 days for $300. I would have been less with the shorter trips, but that runs into issues with getting your ticket lifted.

 

[jis]

Check out October 7th too --- $1,852 is the price for CHI-PDX via LAX in a roomette. 20,000 points OLD SYSTEM ---- 63,894 NEW SYSTEM.

MORE THAN TRIPLE THE POINTS COST!!!!

I am afraid you are singing to the choir, but if it helps your psyche go ahead and post another dozen examples. As I said, the entire purpose of this change is what you are complaining about. That is one thing, i.e. the basic core of the change is not going to get modified because we collectively posted 1600 examples of its consequences on AU. I am sure Anthony's crew thought long and hard about the pros and cons and came to a determination. It is not like they will fold because two dozen AGR gamers (which includes me on occasions) got upset

I am sure minimizing the cost for someone who wants to travel via LAX from CHI to PDX was not very high on the agenda since such a traveler is not really considered to be a normal average Joe traveler.

 

[BCL]

My real beef, as stated earlier, was the 100 point minimum going away. There is no way I am going to spend $5,000 a year on Amtrak travel that will be required now to maintain Select Plus. Honestly --- If I am going to spend that much on a train trip it will be something much nice than Amtrak (VIA or private rail charter). Access to Amtrak lounges and United lounges was worth the $1000 or so a year doing "point runs"... not $5,000. Congrats to Anthony for all his hard work... he is a good guy and one of my good friends... but of course, all of the changes he made benefit Amtrak and not really me. So while Amtrak has to do what it has to do... and so do I. I don't see AGR being something I will wish to be involved with past 2/28/17. I wonder how many people will drop off the Select Plus rosters now. Maybe that was the goal though afterall --- maybe too many people had S+ and lounge access --- and they were looking to trim that down a little??!? Still, I guess that $1,000 I would spend on point runs and the 100-200 stats to the Hiawatha I would do -- can go somewhere else... probably United Club.

I wouldn't be too sure that he made the call on these changes. As far as I can tell, he works on the customer service end, but that doesn't mean that he had the final say on the changes. Maybe he contributed. Maybe he lobbied to keep some things the same or to make less drastic changes.

However, as far as I'm concerned those who should be the most aggrieved would be people who bought points in order to save for a big sleeper trip and who aren't quite there yet. While I always thought it was a strange way to save up for a trip, there were people relying on the value proposition to remain the same or at least not as drastic.

 

[rrdude]

Check out October 7th too --- $1,852 is the price for CHI-PDX via LAX in a roomette. 20,000 points OLD SYSTEM ---- 63,894 NEW SYSTEM.

MORE THAN TRIPLE THE POINTS COST!!!!

I just randomly picked November 24th. Didn't realize it was that close to Thanksigving and was a blackout date.

But, fine, let's use another random date -- October 10, 2015 -- gathering weekend (not that I usually go, as I usually work to narrate a steam engine trip out of MSP that weekend).

This is EVEN WORSE than the previous example.

A roomette from CHI to PDX via LAX is going for $1,583 for 2 people. This would be 20,000 points under the current system, and it looks like 54,614 under the new system. Dude, this is almost TRIPLE the redemption cost.

Sure, you can put lipstick on a pig -- but you can't dress up how this new program is going to royally screw people trying to take bedrooms out west. Sure, your redemption for short hauls may go down, but I enjoy longer trips in bedrooms. A redemption going from 20,000 to 54,000 is un-acceptible!!!

The Tuesday of Thanksgiving week? I'm wildly unsurprised that the tickets are going to be priced out of this world.

Not to mention that 11/24/15 is an AGR blackout date, so a 20,000 point, two-zone roomette redemption CHI-PDX is not permitted under the present program.

Dude, it's gonna royally SUCK for some people, a LOT of people. But I'm on board with JIS, this makes perfect sense for Amtrak from a business perspective, it just royally SCREWS a lot of us who used to earn points by riding, spending, shopping, etc., etc.

I highly doubt there will be too many changes because of any "uproar". Some minor, I'm sure. But Amtrak's core market is NOT the group of devotees that frequent this, and other boards. We gotta basically "bitch" then get it over it. Like me and others have said, "Burn 'em while ya can", and start saving for that Trans-Canada, or Indian sub-continent trip......

 

[rtabern]

Agreed with everything you said. Amtrak has every right to make the changes it is and it has to do what is best for the company. Likewise, I will do what is best for me, too -- burn off my points by 2016 and stop riding LD trains for the most part now between this and the other cuts made (maybe with the exception of a CS trip every now and then while the PPCs are still on). It's just sad some redemptions will cost TRIPLE what they did before though -- that is pretty extreme. I am admitedly an AGR "gamer". I liked taking rides from Milwaukee downtown to Milwaukee airport -- it was very relaxing to get away for a couple of hours and earn 300 points in the process (points and S+ bonus). It was nice to have the free lounge access with Select Plus to have an actual clean bathroom at Union Station in Chicago and the east coast stations. But, every good thing must come to an end.

Check out October 7th too --- $1,852 is the price for CHI-PDX via LAX in a roomette. 20,000 points OLD SYSTEM ---- 63,894 NEW SYSTEM.

MORE THAN TRIPLE THE POINTS COST!!!!

I am afraid you are singing to the choir, but if it helps your psyche go ahead and post another dozen examples. As I said, the entire purpose of this change is what you are complaining about. That is one thing, i.e. the basic core of the change is not going tog et modified because we collectively posted 1600 examples of its consequences on AU. I am sure Anothoy's crew thought long and hard about the pros and cons and came to a determination. It is not like they will fold because two dozen AGR gamers (which includes me on occasions) got upset

I am sure minimizing the cost for someone who wants to travel via LAX from CHI to PDX was not very high on the agenda since such a traveler is not really considered to be a normal average Joe traveler.

 

[Rail Freak]

Am I seeing things or what!!! My Oct trip DEN-ELP-PGH-PHL-WPK-STP trip cost me 35k. The new rules will cost 83,145?!?!??

Oh, I forgot to add the $20 to get to STP!!!! NAAAAAH, it's been nice, but color me GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BCL]

Dude, it's gonna royally SUCK for some people, a LOT of people. But I'm on board with JIS, this makes perfect sense for Amtrak from a business perspective, it just royally SCREWS a lot of us who used to earn points by riding, spending, shopping, etc., etc.

Yeah - there's definitely a difference between catering to your most loyal customers vs ones that may spend a lot but are also consistently working over the system. Does anyone really think that the system as it currently exists was sustainable?

There was the infamous American Airlines AAirpass. AA learned to regret that and found whatever they could to cancel a pass.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Unfortunately Amtrak don't need us no more. After all, we are just bottom feeders, at least according to the 'young' apologists.

Boardman isn't going to go begging no more across the way from 60 Mass. and we are getting thrown under the train.

The fact that we were there when Amtrak thought it needed us don't matter.

We are just a bunch a old boomer geezers who can now sit here and type 'back in the day' stories while Millennials (Spell check doesn't like millennials!?! What is up with that?) seem to gladly fill the trains - even LDs w/ no diner - 'cause these young 'uns don't know no better, and/or don't feel worthy. :giggle:

GAD!!! I sound just like my grandmother - who loved to tell me her pre-Amtrak and glory days of passenger rail stories! How the heck did I get this old? h34r:

It was a nice (points) run while it lasted. Can't help but feel a bit betrayed by a certain individual though... :blink:

 

[jis]

Don't blame Anthony. He is doing his job the best he can. His primary loyalty on this has got to be with his employer I am afraid. Otherwise I'd start getting really worried.

 

[rrdude]

Well, I've burned 'em all, almost all, up. Even transferred from my wife and kids account to me.

Coast Starlight. Two trips planned, both directions. Bedroom.

Cali Zephyr. Eastbound. Bedroom.

Cardinal. (I know, shocking for such a "Card hater" eh?) Eastbound.

Acela Boston to BWI. First Class

223 points left.............

 

[The Davy Crockett]

I hear you jis, but maybe it was too much talk of point runs in the lunch room.

"There are these foamers at AU, and you wouldn't believe some of the stunts they pull. Did I tell you about the one who..."

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Dude -

Way to go!

223 points and a cup of coffee might get you BAL - BWI - low bucket - in the new system.

 

[rtabern]

Agreed. He is a good guy and friend. He did mention to me at the last gathering (during the ride to Mendota) that it was never a good idea to keep large amount of points in any loyality program when he heard I had 400,000 points built up (down to 280,000 now). Guess I didn't believe that some redemptions would cost TRIPLE in one swoop, but oh well... atleast I have until late January 2016 to figure out a plan to burn the points.

Don't blame him. He is doing his job the best he can. His primary loyalty on this has got to be with his employer I am afraid. Otherwise I'd start getting really worried.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

Wow. Not looking to great here. Time to burn my 110,000 points.

The last few pages of this thread feel like a discussion straight out of a Delta points thread about their dynamic award pricing.

Guess it makes sense though its clear that loyalty programs are on the way out.

 

[tonys96]

So, let me get this right... (an example of how horrible the new AGR redemption process will be)

Let's use November 24, 2015 as an example...

If I wanted a roomette from Chicago to Portland, OR (via LAX using #3 and #14) -- it would cost me 20,000 points under the old system.

If I wanted a roomette from Chicago to Portland, OR (via LAX using #3 and #14) -- it would cost $1397.00 -- which according to the calculator on the new AGR page -- would be 48,197 points under the new system.

So, 20,000 points OLD system and 48,197 points NEW system? WTF?????? That is more than a 100% de-valuation!!!

I can't believe there isn't more of an out-cry over this. Again, I know I am burning through my points and might not even use AGR anymore after 2/28/17 when my S+ status will expire.

I'm only seeing $1197 (or 41,297) as the fare for two people in a roomette via LAX (3/14) for two people. This is for November 24.

Regardless, the "direct" route (via the Builder) is $708 for two people, or 24,426 points. That's about a 25% increase over a normal redemption. Considering that I can actually make the redemption (under the old system I couldn't do it at any number of points) I'd honestly consider that a net win. The indirect routes (or routes with connections) lose out big, but many people (I would argue most people, but unfortunately I don't have the statistics to back that up) will take the most direct route available, even on a points redemption.

Not necessarily.

Those of us out here in one train a day going either north or south land have zero choice. All of our routes are indirect. To go anywhere out west, except LA, we must go to Chicago first, adding a ton of $$$$ to any trip cost (and now point cost). Even going to LA first before going to points north on the CS is a far larger cost in points under this new scheme.

I love San Antonio......but do not want it to be my only Amtrak destination. Ditto Chicago. Ditto Little Rock. But they are the only destinations that are anywhere near the value of points pre-change.

I can see how folks in areas where there are multiple destinations available from a local station might come out ahead, or it be a wash, but those of us in the hinterlands just got a big devaluation of our points.

 

[Manny T]

My perspective from Chicago-land is totally different. I'm gonna keep my points, continue earning points as normal this year, and when the new program kicks in travel in roomettes to NYP, WAS, Memphis & NOLA for fewer points than currently required.

 

[tonys96]

My perspective from Chicago-land is totally different. I'm gonna keep my points, continue earning points as normal this year, and when the new program kicks in travel in roomettes to NYP, WAS, Memphis & NOLA for fewer points than currently required.

Yep. You are a winner in this randomness. Chi, NYP, STP, WAS, all winners. Here in Texas, we lose a great deal. Going to burn my 44k points before the change and likely say goodbye to LD Amtrak travel. Sadly.

 

[jebr]

Well, the example I was responding to does have a direct route, which is why I mentioned the direct route. People, in general, will take the most direct route available to them, unless there's a cost benefit to doing otherwise.

I did look at another test: Houston - Emeryville via the Sunset Limited and Coast Starlight on February 17. The cash cost was $526 (one person, roomette) which equals a points cost of 18,147 points. Not a huge win, but still slightly better than the 20,000 points before.

There's going to be quite a few redemptions that, for me, frankly, suck. There's no direct route for me other than for Seattle, Portland, Chicago, or points in between on the Empire Builder route. But I'm also unlikely to take the train for more than one, maybe two overnights unless it's particularly scenic, and I can drive up to Winnipeg for a nice rail trip if I really want one. AGR in either the old or new points system doesn't hold a candle to The Canadian in terms of pure rail trip-ness - for US$400 I can get a lower berth to Vancouver during a sale, which is cheaper than a 2-zone redemption. I'll still fly if it's a cross-country trip or it's going to take an unreasonable amount of time to take the train. For many of the redemptions that are feasible for me to take, the new system should work out okay, some devaluations here, some better redemptions there. I never really did a loop trip (closest was ATL - CVS - CHI - MTP, and the only reason I did that was because there was a LOT of luggage on that trip.) I'm excited to be able to use my points for shorter trips where rail isn't adding a ton of time to the trip and not feel like I'm wasting them.

 

[tonys96]

Well, the example I was responding to does have a direct route, which is why I mentioned the direct route. People, in general, will take the most direct route available to them, unless there's a cost benefit to doing otherwise.

I did look at another test: Houston - Emeryville via the Sunset Limited and Coast Starlight on February 17. The cash cost was $526 (one person, roomette) which equals a points cost of 18,147 points. Not a huge win, but still slightly better than the 20,000 points before.

There's going to be quite a few redemptions that, for me, frankly, suck. There's no direct route for me other than for Seattle, Portland, Chicago, or points in between on the Empire Builder route. But I'm also unlikely to take the train for more than one, maybe two overnights unless it's particularly scenic, and I can drive up to Winnipeg for a nice rail trip if I really want one. AGR in either the old or new points system doesn't hold a candle to The Canadian in terms of pure rail trip-ness - for US$400 I can get a lower berth to Vancouver during a sale, which is cheaper than a 2-zone redemption. I'll still fly if it's a cross-country trip or it's going to take an unreasonable amount of time to take the train. For many of the redemptions that are feasible for me to take, the new system should work out okay, some devaluations here, some better redemptions there. I never really did a loop trip (closest was ATL - CVS - CHI - MTP, and the only reason I did that was because there was a LOT of luggage on that trip.) I'm excited to be able to use my points for shorter trips where rail isn't adding a ton of time to the trip and not feel like I'm wasting them.

Your example would be a net loss for two people, though. Currently the same points cost, soon to be different. I enjoy the train, but if I travel LD alone, I go coach due to cost. When traveling with a lady friend, we go sleeper. Same reason, mostly, plus comfort.

Also, under the new scheme, going from FTW to OKC will have to be a cash deal. Cost is too small to make it to 800 points.......