Amtrak long distance fares 2021-2023

[Cal]

I don't think he has anything to do with Amtrak anymore. It has been quite a while. While he may be masochistic, I don;t think he is that masochistic

Oh, I thought I saw some posts on AU saying he was. Guess I'm mistaken

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Amtrak's long distance network only serves a small fraction of the population, period, when you look at their share of intercity traffic compared to other transportation modes. So does that mean the government shouldn't be running the service at all?

And perhaps you could address my above point about what in the Amtrak legislation (or some other similar source) obligates it to keep fares - especially SLEEPING CAR fares - low?

About 13% of Americans receive food stamps. I'm sure there are many other programs that serve far fewer people. Amtrak's percentage of users is much less but only because Congress has not been willing to fund its expansion. So what if the number of people is small? The subsidy has also been small. And I did not propose low fares, rather more accessible fares that can be afforded by more than a tiny elite of the population.

 

[Ryan]

You are still ducking the only question that matters. The law says one thing, and you're arguing that they should do something different. How do you explain that disconnect and what would you do about it?

 

[Qapla]

Change the law/charter and quit requiring them to "make a profit" ... (or, you could always change the law/charter the other way and require the Interstate Road System to make a profit)

 

[Barb Stout]

There is a large gap between "free" and "as high as the wealthiest customer is willing to pay."

Yeah, that reminds me of the college tuition argument. 'Nother story, of course, but I am so glad I graduated when I did.

 

[jis]

Change the law/charter and quit requiring them to "make a profit" ... (or, you could always change the law/charter the other way and require the Interstate Road System to make a profit)

Here is how I see the current situation. I don't think there is any law or charter to change absent a change in actual consensus of what we are trying to achieve. If we really wanted to develop the LD network there is everything already there to do so as far as the legal framework is concerned.

The law requires Amtrak to be "operated and managed like a for profit corporation" which does not mean that it necessarily has to make a profit (Plenty of "for profit" corporations run for many years without making a profit). In any case whether Amtrak makes a profit or not is principally determined by whether the federal funding to Amtrak is characterized as a subsidy or as a contract price. The latter moves the amount to the earnings side of the ledger. It is a deliberate act to characterize it the way it is.

In any case, that is not Amtrak's primary mission. Its primary mission is to "provide a balanced transportation system by developing, operating, and improving intercity rail passenger service". Like in all planning and execution what needs to happen is using something like a balanced scorecard where you trade off various forces pulling in opposite directions so as to deliver on your mission. At present it could be argued that Amtrak is failing to deliver on its primary mission while focusing exclusively on one single other parameter. That is a sign of poor management decision making, or alternatively a collective desire in the corridors of power for whatever reason, to ignore part of the primary mission, and it can only be set straight by the incorporators and paymasters, who unfortunately, if anything, are even worse at strategically operating anything. Or maybe they are actually really good and are getting the results that they really want. Who knows? So here we are.

The federal DOT which holds all the preferred shares of Amtrak, in principle could probably use their voting power to fire the Board and reconstitute it. While I am sure that there is some legal catch that makes that impossible, I don't think they will do it even if they could, because they are not really bothered enough about how things are going. There at present is close to a tacit consensus as far as I can tell on the principle that the focus of development is corridors, and the LD network is at best in maintenance mode. Every concrete act indicates that this is the case. I don't see that changing easily. It is a position that has been carefully built with tacit agreement across the aisle. There are occasional loud complaints when some vocal group's ox gets gored in the process (example SWC), but other than that there is no consistent tidal wave of support and action on that front.

If there really was sufficient support it would be a different story. You can micromanage an outfit by writing reams of legalese only so far when there is actual lack of willingness among those entrusted to execute to do the needful.

Sorry for being the bearer of bad news. But to paraphrase Walter Cronkite as he used to say to end his daily news - "And that's the way it is, on this day".

 

[Sidney]

I have been riding Amtrak for over thirty years doing annual cross country and circle trips,first in Coach and later in roomettes I have traveled hundreds of thousands of miles. Simply put,as a retiree without unlimited funds,there is no way I would pay $900 or more for a two night trip in a roomette. I have always found cheaper fares by taking Coach to a station down the line,like Bloomington Il on the TE to save some money or combining coach and roomette

I have a trip next week and one in September. I'm hoping prices will ease somewhat,so I can continue to enjoy my passion..a sleeper on a long distance train.

Amtrak is obviously doing well with sleepers sold out or close to it the next few months. Some people will pay $899 to $1189 for a roomette on the SW Chief. I won't.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

People talk about a new Superliner order or at least a refresh for the western long distance network. Look what management has done with the V2 order so far. It’s obvious they don’t want to run the network. It’s a moot point for now.

 

[lrh442]

Given that you can't buy a roomette on the next two departures of the SWC (and you can't buy a bedroom on the one after that), it's a safe bet that there are people willing to pay that.

But why, in these waning days of tri-weekly service when there are (or should be) extra Superliners available to deploy, aren't trains lengthened to accommodate the demand? That is one of the key operational advantages that trains possess over airlines. And there is zero evidence that Superliners are being held back because they are receiving long-overdue refreshing. These high-bucket and sold-out trains have persisted for months now, and it's not just a function of last-minute demand. These conditions exist weeks in advance of departure. Plenty of time to add capacity and soak up additional demand.

I sure would love to know what revenue Amtrak thinks they need to break-even to add an additional sleeper, both with and without a third motor on the front.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

But why, in these waning days of tri-weekly service when there are (or should be) extra Superliners available to deploy, aren't trains lengthened to accommodate the demand? That is one of the key operational advantages that trains possess over airlines. And there is zero evidence that Superliners are being held back because they are receiving long-overdue refreshing. These high-bucket and sold-out trains have persisted for months now, and it's not just a function of last-minute demand. These conditions exist weeks in advance of departure. Plenty of time to add capacity and soak up additional demand.

I sure would love to know what revenue Amtrak thinks they need to break-even to add an additional sleeper, both with and without a third motor on the front.

Maybe because the "extra" OBS needed for those extra cars have been furloughed. Do you expect the current SCA's to take on the extra car (yes, I know sometimes they do, but I don't think it's a daily requirement).

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Accept it or not, that's the reality of the situation. The law says manage as a for-profit corporation. As Betty said, get the law changed, and get Amtrak the funding to double or quadruple the amount of rolling stock and trains so that supply can be increased sufficiently that prices can fall. As another poster is fond of saying (and I feel bad about not remembering who, and probably butchering the quote), the best cure for Amtrak is more Amtrak.

Amtrak will never make a profit. They can only try to live within a too low budget. Do they really have to charge exorbitant sleeping-car fares? By doing so they aren't making a profit, are they? Perhaps there are other cost cutting measures that will not price the great majority of the population out of the sleeping-car travel market.

 

[NEPATrainTraveler]

One thing I notice when reading trip reports is that those who ride in sleeper tend to have the better experience compared to those who do LD coach. So, from what I can tell, it seems that if you want to have a good Amtrak LD experience you need to shell out for a roomette/bedroom. This is frustrating due to the ever rising cost of a sleeper room. A round trip in sleeper to Chicago where I would get off the LSL/CL in the morning and then take the LSL/CL back east at night would cost me more than the 4 night hotel stay I had in Milwaukee back in 2018.

I would love to ride more LD Amtrak, but it is hard to justify the high costs of a sleeper to myself when I know flying would be cheaper and would give me more money for whatever trip it is I would be taking. After my last LD Coach experience, I am weary of riding LD Coach again for fear of having another rough experience.

 

[Ryan]

Amtrak will never make a profit. They can only try to live within a too low budget. Do they really have to charge exorbitant sleeping-car fares? By doing so they aren't making a profit, are they? Perhaps there are other cost cutting measures that will not price the great majority of the population out of the sleeping-car travel market.

Go back and re-read Jishnu's post. Slowly. You're focusing on the wrong thing by saying they won't make a profit.

If you have actionable, concrete ideas for other cost cutting, I'd love to hear them.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Change the law/charter and quit requiring them to "make a profit" ... (or, you could always change the law/charter the other way and require the Interstate Road System to make a profit)

It seems there are seventeen government owned corporations that are supposed to make a profit. The Post Office is the best known. They lose a vast amount of money. I doubt that universal postal service could be made profitable but I think it could be made more efficient and less costly. I don't know how the other fifteen (excluding Amtrak) corporations fare. It seems to me that the "for profit" aspect is a difficult to achieve ideal for some services. This clause of course gives Congress an excuse to reduce or eliminate subsidies if they want. Here is the list:

Appendix. Federal Government Corporations

1. Commodity Credit Corporation	(15 U.S.C. 714)
2. Export-Import Bank	(12 U.S.C. 635)
3. Federal Crop Insurance Corporation	(7 U.S.C. 1501)
4. Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation	(12 U.S.C. 1811)
5. Federal Financing Bank	(12 U.S.C. 2281)
6. Federal Prison Industries (UNICOR)	(18 U.S.C. 4121)
7. Financing Corporation	(12 U.S.C. 1441)
8. Government National Mortgage Corporation	(12 U.S.C. 1717)
9. National Railroad Passenger Corporation (AMTRAK)	(49 U.S.C. 241)
10. Overseas Private Investment Corporation	(22 U.S.C. 2191)
11. Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation	(29 U.S.C. 1301)
12. Presidio Trust of San Francisco	(16 U.S.C. 460bb)
13. Resolution Funding Corporation	(12 U.S.C. 1441(b))
14. St. Lawrence Seaway Development Corporation	(33 U.S.C. 981)
15. Tennessee Valley Authority	(16 U.S.C. 831)
16. U.S. Postal Service	(39 U.S.C. 101)
17. Valles Caldera Trust	(16 U.S.C. 698-v4)

 

[Ferroequinologist]

One thing I notice when reading trip reports is that those who ride in sleeper tend to have the better experience compared to those who do LD coach. So, from what I can tell, it seems that if you want to have a good Amtrak LD experience you need to shell out for a roomette/bedroom. This is frustrating due to the ever rising cost of a sleeper room. A round trip in sleeper to Chicago where I would get off the LSL/CL in the morning and then take the LSL/CL back east at night would cost me more than the 4 night hotel stay I had in Milwaukee back in 2018.

I would love to ride more LD Amtrak, but it is hard to justify the high costs of a sleeper to myself when I know flying would be cheaper and would give me more money for whatever trip it is I would be taking. After my last LD Coach experience, I am weary of riding LD Coach again for fear of having another rough experience.

The irony is that you get so little for your money. It's not exctly like riding the Orient Express tourist train.

 

[SanDiegan]

Looks like I'll be going to Chicago via Little Rock ....

 

[Bob Dylan]

Looks like I'll be going to Chicago via Little Rock ....

Or Denver!!!

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Looks like I'll be going to Chicago via Little Rock ....

Pick up Jim on your way....

 

[SanDiegan]

Or Portland ...

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Or Portland ...

Then pick up ....

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Or Portland ...

I’m going via New Orleans.

 

[Cal]

Amtrak will never make a profit. They can only try to live within a too low budget. Do they really have to charge exorbitant sleeping-car fares? By doing so they aren't making a profit, are they? Perhaps there are other cost cutting measures that will not price the great majority of the population out of the sleeping-car travel market.

Never is a stretch, they weren't too far off before COVID.

And there is speculation on here on how accurate Amtrak accounting is regarding LD trains...

 

[Barb Stout]

I would love to ride more LD Amtrak, but it is hard to justify the high costs of a sleeper to myself when I know flying would be cheaper and would give me more money for whatever trip it is I would be taking. After my last LD Coach experience, I am weary of riding LD Coach again for fear of having another rough experience.

What made your LD coach ride rough?

 

[Barb Stout]

Appendix. Federal Government Corporations

1. Commodity Credit Corporation	(15 U.S.C. 714)
2. Export-Import Bank	(12 U.S.C. 635)
3. Federal Crop Insurance Corporation	(7 U.S.C. 1501)
4. Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation	(12 U.S.C. 1811)
5. Federal Financing Bank	(12 U.S.C. 2281)
6. Federal Prison Industries (UNICOR)	(18 U.S.C. 4121)
7. Financing Corporation	(12 U.S.C. 1441)
8. Government National Mortgage Corporation	(12 U.S.C. 1717)
9. National Railroad Passenger Corporation (AMTRAK)	(49 U.S.C. 241)
10. Overseas Private Investment Corporation	(22 U.S.C. 2191)
11. Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation	(29 U.S.C. 1301)
12. Presidio Trust of San Francisco	(16 U.S.C. 460bb)
13. Resolution Funding Corporation	(12 U.S.C. 1441(b))
14. St. Lawrence Seaway Development Corporation	(33 U.S.C. 981)
15. Tennessee Valley Authority	(16 U.S.C. 831)
16. U.S. Postal Service	(39 U.S.C. 101)
17. Valles Caldera Trust	(16 U.S.C. 698-v4)

The Valles Caldera Trust, #17 on the above list, has been folded into the National Park Service probably back in 2013, the last date of its report to Congress. I wonder if some of the others on the above list have likewise been modified. I happen to know about the Valles Caldera Trust because Valles Caldera is in NM where I live and they made a big deal of it in the news during that time when it became part of NPS and for a few years prior. I have been there twice and it is beautiful. And big.

 

[NEPATrainTraveler]

What made your LD coach ride rough?

Basically, I had trouble sleeping. Part of this was due to the seats having no neck support, part of it being me not used to sleeping sitting up, part of it was due to the car being hot (this trip happened in late October 2018, so the heat was jacked up), and part of it was due to me getting motion sick about 7-8 hours into the journey. I only got about 2 hours of sleep if you paste all my attempts at sleep together. I can function on less than 8 hours of sleep (getting 5 or 6 hours of sleep is my usual), but 2 hours was apparently not enough. I spent the next day sleeping in my hotel room instead of exploring Milwaukee like I originally intended to. I was fully recovered the next day though. Looking back there are things I probably could do to make things better (neck pillow, Dramamine, change into summer time clothes, etc.). I know the only way to find out is to try it again, but I don't know if I want to take the risk or not. I didn't have a seatmate when I took my trip, but I know I may not be so lucky next time and will have to deal with the awkwardness of sleeping next to a stranger.

I would love to be able to do coach because it is so much cheaper than a sleeper and I like the cafe car food. I also like that Amtrak (depending on the city in question) drops you off in the downtown area instead of the outskirts like airplanes do. Don't have to deal with the airline luggage restrictions and TSA stuff with Amtrak either. And of course, much better scenery than flying.