Amtrak long distance fares 2021-2023

[zephyr17]

This is especially true when you consider that sleeper fares generally did not include meals.

On the other hand... sleeper fares back then were much more competitive in comparison to airline fares. The drastic change since then is that airline fares (adjusted for inflation) have come WAY down. This is probably why Amtrak coach fares are much lower when you adjust for inflation. There is more of a direct competition with airlines in regard to coach class.

It is also why Amtrak sleeper fares "feel" much higher - even if they aren't when you adjust for inflation. Because compared to the alternatives, sleeper fares really are MUCH higher now.

But coach fares were much higher, adjusted for inflation. So there's that.

 

[zephyr17]

Another complicating factor is that most RRs were losing $ on passenger service in the '60s, but maybe not the D&RGW?

D&RGW was losing money. They all were.

 

[Willbridge]

Another complicating factor is that most RRs were losing $ on passenger service in the '60s, but maybe not the D&RGW?

Whoo, boy! That's a question that the Greatest Generation spent a lot of time on. My guess is that they were making a small profit in the first half of the decade and losing money in the second half.

Here's the issue. The ICC approved accounting shared costs between different types of service. (As did the CTC in Canada.) The companies that were interested kept a separate unofficial set of books based on avoidable costs. I believe that avoidable "real" cost of running passenger trains is the origin of the Amtrak payments to the railway companies.

I don't remember the date but Trains carried an excellent article from a CB&Q man about that issue coming to the fore when Menk became president. He came in with the idea that passenger trains were losers and hired an outside firm to prove his employees who disagreed "wrong."

 

[Larry H.]

Saying the sleepers were for the rich is not my recollection. Sure if you had a lot of money you could always go first class, it was just the way the rich travel. However on the Canadian which at the time had at least 10 sleepers out of a 22 car consist, many of the passengers in our car and the ones around us were young people like I was at the time. We would all meet in one of the large domes at night and they would play guitars and everyone would sing. They were every day common people who were going two and three day destinations and wanted to not sit up the whole trip. Same goes for people on many long distance trains I have ridden, you see college students, a few drunks, young families all using the sleepers. I am still perplexed by the inflation numbers quoted. I suppose that is because I never made much money, but the step up to a pullman fare never seemed like a real expensive move. But now paying a thousand or two thousand for a room most certainly is a lot of money to me. But then the same applies to houses and cars, all with crazy high prices compared to one for less than 20,000 in the 60s. ( houses that is).

 

[Larry H.]

One other thing not too often recalled here is that after some time of running the Passenger Business, Amtrak decided to charge twice the fare for a bedroom. So if you go alone your paying double what it would have cost before the change. In some ways that doesn't make too much sense as the second person usually just pays the coach fare to ride in an already paid for room? Well either way they got a lot more revenue out of that doubling of fare.

 

[Ryan]

You're going to have to provide a citation for that. Given that we've proven the fares are in line with what has been charged in the past, that would mean that Amtrak was charging half-price for some period of time and then doubled fares.

 

[PaTrainFan]

When I was a kid growing up in the 60s, our family of 4 took numerous extended sleeper trips and we were most decidedly middle class living on two teachers' salaries when they weren't making squat. But my father was frugal and saved well because these vacations were important to him...and to us.

Saying the sleepers were for the rich is not my recollection. Sure if you had a lot of money you could always go first class, it was just the way the rich travel. However on the Canadian which at the time had at least 10 sleepers out of a 22 car consist, many of the passengers in our car and the ones around us were young people like I was at the time. We would all meet in one of the large domes at night and they would play guitars and everyone would sing. They were every day common people who were going two and three day destinations and wanted to not sit up the whole trip. Same goes for people on many long distance trains I have ridden, you see college students, a few drunks, young families all using the sleepers. I am still perplexed by the inflation numbers quoted. I suppose that is because I never made much money, but the step up to a pullman fare never seemed like a real expensive move. But now paying a thousand or two thousand for a room most certainly is a lot of money to me. But then the same applies to houses and cars, all with crazy high prices compared to one for less than 20,000 in the 60s. ( houses that is).

 

[niemi24s]

One other thing not too often recalled here is that after some time of running the Passenger Business, Amtrak decided to charge twice the fare for a bedroom.

Q1: When did that fare increase occur?
Q2: Can you provide sample fares before and after that increase?

 

[Amtrak709]

Just to add my two cents worth: my favorite "cheap" sleeping car fare = Athens, GA to Richmond, VA Broad Street Station November 1966 Pullman Roomette
$27.70 first class rail fare + $8.80 Pullman sleeping car ticket (the bedroom sleeping car ticket Richmond to Athens same trip was $19.10 + rail fare). I have the two Pullman car tickets framed and hanging in my office to this day.

 

[joelkfla]

You're going to have to provide a citation for that. Given that we've proven the fares are in line with what has been charged in the past, that would mean that Amtrak was charging half-price for some period of time and then doubled fares.

The comparisons I've done were at roomette level. I don't recall seeing a comparison for bedrooms (but I could've missed it.)

 

[nferr]

Personally, I was alive back in the 1960's - and, yes, things were "cheaper" back then compared to what they cost now. And, while I understand that, accounting for inflation, prices can be stated as being "equivalent" to some "adjusted" price today ... I am not currently making and spending "inflated" money. I am spending out of the funds I currently have and paying prices currently being charged - regardless of how they compare to prices in the 60's

I do not need to "adjust for inflation" to know when something is too expensive and therefore not buy it ... that goes for products like cars, TV's and food - as well as train/sleeper fares.

Regardless of inflation, IMHO train sleeper fares are just plain too high - it is as simple as that.

I understand. But they're too high for you. Since they're consistently booked the sleepers are obviously not too high for everybody. Simple supply and demand. I use points and right now I don't want to use my points un till the prices come down some, if ever. I do have 200,000 points so...

 

[Qapla]

I use points and right now I don't want to use my points un till the prices come down some, if ever.

So, evidently, your opinion agrees with mine - they are too expensive ... thus the need for the prices to "come down some"

 

[pennyk]

I think the bedroom prices are high. My December 2021 cross country trip is way more expensive (in points) than my December 2019 trip. Part of the increase is that in 2021, I will be traveling in bedrooms on the Silver Meteor, whereas I traveled in roomettes in 2019. However, in 2021, I will be in a roomette on the Lakeshore Limited going to CHI, whereas I was in a bedroom on the CL in 2019. In 2019, I took the CZ west and EB east. In 2021, I will take the SWC west and CZ east.
Since I want to travel in 2021, have enough points and am not convinced the fares will go down anytime soon (if ever), I bit the bullet and booked the December 2021 trip.

The demand is higher for travel. It appears that the demand for sleepers has skyrocketed, especially bedrooms with private restrooms. The supply on many trains seems to be down.

One does not need to be wealthy to travel in a sleeper - it just has to be a priority in that person's life.

 

[Sidney]

So, evidently, your opinion agrees with mine - they are too expensive ... thus the need for the prices to "come down some"

Obviously,people are paying those outrageous prices,so don't expect them to drop. I've seen bedroom prices on the EB north of $2000 from Chi to Sea. I booked a 9 day Caribbean cruise in January for $1600 .

 

[enviro5609]

I think the bedroom prices are high. My December 2021 cross country trip is way more expensive (in points) than my December 2019 trip. Part of the increase is that in 2021, I will be traveling in bedrooms on the Silver Meteor, whereas I traveled in roomettes in 2019. However, in 2021, I will be in a roomette on the Lakeshore Limited going to CHI, whereas I was in a bedroom on the CL in 2019. In 2019, I took the CZ west and EB east. In 2021, I will take the SWC west and CZ east.
Since I want to travel in 2021, have enough points and am not convinced the fares will go down anytime soon (if ever), I bit the bullet and booked the December 2021 trip.

The demand is higher for travel. It appears that the demand for sleepers has skyrocketed, especially bedrooms with private restrooms. The supply on many trains seems to be down.

One does not need to be wealthy to travel in a sleeper - it just has to be a priority in that person's life.

Adding on to your point about high demand, something I have not seen discussed yet here is the potential increase in "short" bookings for Roomettes.

With COVID, and mask restrictions, I would be shocked if there were not more bookings for Roomettes on day trips as compared to pre-2020. While the cost may be reasonable for the day trip, it takes a Roomette out of the end-to end supply, thereby driving the costs up for end to end long distance travel.

For instance, travel from Chicago to Minneapolis is a ~8 hour day trip. In 2019 we would have booked coach without a second thought, and maybe stopped by the dinning car if we felt like splurging.

Now? We'd take the Roomette. Not only is it the only way to get into the dining car, but we get our own space and don't have to wear a mask the entire trip. While that makes sense for us, it takes a Roomette out of supply for its intended purpose-- overnight travel.

I wonder how much of the phenomena discussed here about "empty" rooms is really just people noticing Roomettes or Bedrooms that were short booked for just a day.

 

[Willbridge]

Adding on to your point about high demand, something I have not seen discussed yet here is the potential increase in "short" bookings for Roomettes.

With COVID, and mask restrictions, I would be shocked if there are were not more bookings for Roomettes on day trips as compared to pre-2020. While the cost may be reasonable for the day trip, it takes a Roomette out of the end-to end supply, thereby driving the costs up for end to end long distance travel.

For instance, travel from Chicago to Minneapolis is a ~8 hour day trip. In 2019 we would have booked coach without a second thought, and maybe stopped by the dinning car if we felt like splurging.

Now? We'd take the Roomette. Not only is it the only way to get into the dining car, but we get our own space and don't have to wear a mask the entire trip. While that makes sense for us, it takes a Roomette out of supply for its intended purpose-- overnight travel.

I wonder how much of the phenomena discussed here about "empty" rooms is really just people noticing Roomettes or Bedrooms that were short booked for just a day.

I follow the Cascades and the related segments of the Coast Starlight and typically the PDX<>EUG minimum sleeper charge is higher than the SEA<>PDX sleeper charge. That indicates that Amtrak is pricing to reduce the chances of "shorts" blocking space for longer trips.

For Friday, August 27th,
SEA>PDX = Rooms start at $153. 186 rail miles.
PDX>EUG = Rooms start at $209. 124 rail miles.

Business Class starts looking really good on the PDX>EUG segment.

The lower occupancy of sleepers north of Portland is why the UP/NP/SP Seattle-Oakland pool cars were fewer than the SP Portland-Oakland cars. It is why in the original brainstorming for Trains 27/28 we considered a through Los Angeles<>Portland<>Chicago sleeper, which would save a car. Fortunately that wasn't tried, as schedule adherence would have been a problem.

 

[Larry H.]

I just started researching the two fares for what used to be available for one that people wanted to know where I found it. Here is a quote from and amtrak review around 2001. It talks about how people are charged double the fare for a room where they used to be a fare for one. Probably some clearer articles but at the moment I don't have time to look for them.

"One for the price of two
The price of a bedroom always builds in the cost of “complimentary” dining car meals for two people, even when only one person is traveling.

Many sleeping car veterans have decried this Amtrak version of the “single supplement,” especially after the retirement of older, more economical Slumbercoaches and Heritage Roomettes. Management argues that if someone will pay and the car is sold out, why cut the rate just because only one person is traveling?"

Pretty much eluding to the point that the charge used to be for one person, not two.

 

[Ryan]

That does absolutely nothing to bolster your claim that priced doubled at some unspecified point in time in the past.

 

[Amtrak709]

I think that those of us who prefer a bedroom to a roomette had (and I repeat: HAD) gotten used to paying premium price for it in general--for the larger space, the enclosed toilet, the private shower, etc.--the meals charge is just ancillary (in my opinion). Based on what have become outrageous differences in roomette and bedroom prices, my opinion has dramatically changed. It is impossible for me to ignore that discrepancy on my last trip in June 2021 ATN-NYP roomette would have been $380.20 each way (senior fare + roomette); bedroom was $1142.00. Now, admittedly, I paid for the bedroom--***** (I wanted to see the new Moynihan Train Hall and I had not been for a train ride in a while), but I will NEVER pay that again.

 

[niemi24s]

, , , but I will NEVER pay that again.

I don't blame you! And only because the Roomette fare you found was the lowest (bucket) possible and the Bedroom fare (bucket) you paid was as high as possible.

But had you shopped around for different dates you might (maybe) have found some date when the highest Roomette fares were $37 or $121 more than the cheapest Bedroom fare of (presently) $611! Here are the current fares (buckets) between ATN and NYP for one adult (the senior discount amounts to $21):

• Roomette - $417, 499, 582, 669 and [753, estimated]
• Bedroom - $632, 773, 886, 1017 and 1149.

Those outrageous differences between the cheapest and costliest rooms (usually more than 3X) have been in effect for years and years - the exception being the CONO where it's a bit more than 2X.

 

[Qapla]

The price of a bedroom always builds in the cost of “complimentary” dining car meals for two people, even when only one person is traveling.

If that is the case, I would want both meals even if I was traveling alone ... especially since I would have paid for both

 

[niemi24s]

And if you turned up your nose at what was offered you'd want a refund?

 

[Amtrak709]

Thanks for the reply niemi24s. YES, you are absolutely correct. When I booked in April I was searching for low bucket near the week the Crescent resumed daily
service--so I picked 06/10/2021 & 06/12/2021 return and there were NO Bedrooms available. Just to ride and see the Moynihan Train Hall. Later, near departure date, I decided I HAD to have the bedroom (turned out to be the 'H" accessible (both ways)--which, I think, is the nicest accommodation on the sleeper). I am clearly the one who made the decision to pay the fare. It is just I have had the opportunity to recall what I have paid for bedrooms in the past, and the $1100 price tag seemed exorbitant.

 

[Amtrak709]

Hey, Larry H. Both meals?? The flex dining on the Crescent those days I travelled was NOT good. I am a 230-pound guy, but I do not believe I could have eaten two meals.

 

[Sidney]

If that is the case, I would want both meals even if I was traveling alone ... especially since I would have paid for both

90% of the time I travel by myself. In all those years I have been paying for two meals instead of one? Of course,there is no discount for solo travelers.