Amtrak Official: Jacksonville-Miami rail going to happen

[Ocala Mike]

Here's more on what's happening with the "S" line through Marion County, FL. It mentions the increase in freight traffic associated with the SunRail project.

http://www.ocala.com/article/20120124/ARTICLES/120129826?tc=cr

Ocala Mike

 

[jphjaxfl]

I have noticed a higher volume of freight trains when I drive along US 301which parallels the S line but in most cases there is room for a double tracked alignment. The A line through Sanford and Orlando doesn't seem to have as much room. I saw a rail map of Florida from the 1920s which had a lot more rail lines than we have now. Many were built to haul produce and were abandoned in the depression, but could be helpful as secondary freight lines today.

 

[Ocala Mike]

Yes, there were many rail lines that existed solely for the transport of locally-grown agricultural products, including one right near where I live (Emathla). No trace of many of these lines today. Track pulled up and right-of-way no longer evident.

 

[jis]

One more hurdle cleared. Now the liability issue on Tri-Rail is settled with the Governor signing off on the no fault law similar to the one for Sun Rail.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2012/jun/08/amtrak-taking-new-look-at-projected-ridership-on/

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2012/mar/28/amtrak-service-along-treasure-coast-on-track-if/

Looks like things might start moving on this one and actually come to fruition in the next two to three years.

If one is to believe that the numbers remain unchanged or are better than in the original report, then one can expect the Silver Star to be the first to be split at JAX for service down FEC.

It has now been explicitly reported that the FEC MIA - ORL plan is not in conflict with the Amtrak FEC plan. See:

http://www.sunshinestatenews.com/story/east-coast-passenger-train-venture-waiting-amtrak

To refresh memories, from the service development plans as shown in the Service Development Plan selecting the Silver Star option would appear to be the most cost effective as a starter:

BTW, if you have a fast internet access and have some disk space to spare, you may want to take a look at the complete Concept Plan in Appendix B of the Draft EA. Beware it is a huge PDF file which contains artist's renderings and map charts of all proposed stations, and a complete track diagram of FEC with current and proposed speeds etc. A treasure trove for those who are into such things.

 

[user 1215]

How long is this gonna take? :angry:

Someone needs to figure out how New Mexico did it so quickly. In fact, the process is SO SLOW that on page 5 of the document noted by jis, the artist rendering shows the PREVIOUS Amtrak logo!

 

[jis]

How long is this gonna take? :angry:

Someone needs to figure out how New Mexico did it so quickly. In fact, the process is SO SLOW that on page 5 of the document noted by jis, the artist rendering shows the PREVIOUS Amtrak logo!

It was initially discussed when Warrington was the CEO dreaming up all sorts of strange new logos and paint schemes, well actually good old Barb was.

Let's be very careful about using New Mexico as an example It might be gone as fast as it came :unsure: though I am hoping it won't. A motivated Governor can make a lot happen very quickly, just as a negatively motivated Governor can undo things just as fast. OTOH, if something happens in spite of a lukewarm Governor, it is more likely to be more lasting.

Ocala Mike may have more upto date info from the chatter in Florida, but what I have heard in Space Coast Chatter is 2015 or 2016. I have a bit of interest in this since I plan to move to the Space Coast in about that timeframe at the latest.

 

[pennyk]

I plan to move to the Space Coast in about that timeframe at the latest.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I just don't know what you guys talk about. What is the "Space Coast"?

 

[pennyk]

I just don't know what you guys talk about. What is the "Space Coast"?

Space Coast is in Brevard County, Florida - east of Orlando, from where the space shuttles and other rockets launched and where Cape Canaveral and Kennedy Space Center are located.

 

[jis]

I just don't know what you guys talk about. What is the "Space Coast"?

Space Coast is in Brevard County, Florida - east of Orlando, from where the space shuttles and other rockets launched and where Cape Canaveral and Kennedy Space Center are located.

In terms of FEC that would be Titusville-Cocoa-Rockledge down to Melbourne - Palm Bay. In particular, the proposed new line connecting Orlando to FEC will most likely join up with FEC somewhere around Cocoa (528 Corridor). There is a lower probability that it would do so a little further south along the 520 corridor. It would be a sight to behold seeing how they will acquire land to drive through Cocoa West to the FEC along the 520 corridor if it comes to that.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I just don't know what you guys talk about. What is the "Space Coast"?

Space Coast is in Brevard County, Florida - east of Orlando, from where the space shuttles and other rockets launched and where Cape Canaveral and Kennedy Space Center are located.

In terms of FEC that would be Titusville-Cocoa-Rockledge down to Melbourne - Palm Bay. In particular, the proposed new line connecting Orlando to FEC will most likely join up with FEC somewhere around Cocoa (528 Corridor). There is a lower probability that it would do so a little further south along the 520 corridor. It would be a sight to behold seeing how they will acquire land to drive through Cocoa West to the FEC along the 520 corridor if it comes to that.

So, are you moving from New Jersey to Florida?

 

[Anderson]

Just wondering, but why is the Amtrak top speed given as 80 (i.e. 79) MPH while FEC wants to upgrade their line to 90/110 MPH?

 

[pennyk]

I just don't know what you guys talk about. What is the "Space Coast"?

Space Coast is in Brevard County, Florida - east of Orlando, from where the space shuttles and other rockets launched and where Cape Canaveral and Kennedy Space Center are located.

In terms of FEC that would be Titusville-Cocoa-Rockledge down to Melbourne - Palm Bay. In particular, the proposed new line connecting Orlando to FEC will most likely join up with FEC somewhere around Cocoa (528 Corridor). There is a lower probability that it would do so a little further south along the 520 corridor. It would be a sight to behold seeing how they will acquire land to drive through Cocoa West to the FEC along the 520 corridor if it comes to that.

So, are you moving from New Jersey to Florida?

Why not??? There are many great things in Florida. :lol:

 

[jis]

Just wondering, but why is the Amtrak top speed given as 80 (i.e. 79) MPH while FEC wants to upgrade their line to 90/110 MPH?

Where did you see Amtrak top speed given as 80? The track charts I have in front of me says 90mph for about half the distance. The speeds shown in this plan chart is what is achievable with the funding from the state + what was the HSIPR grant had it come through. Anything that FEC does over and above that with its own funds is not mentioned in the plan, but will of course be usable by Amtrak if and when that happens.

 

[jis]

So, are you moving from New Jersey to Florida?

Why not??? There are many great things in Florida. :lol:

The two more important ones being no Income Tax and much much lower Inheritance/Estate taxes

 

[pennyk]

So, are you moving from New Jersey to Florida?

Why not??? There are many great things in Florida. :lol:

The two more important ones being no Income Tax and much much lower Inheritance/Estate taxes

Right now, we have NO estate tax, individual income tax or intangible tax in Florida. On the other hand, our schools stink. Our estate tax is a "sponge" tax meaning that the amount of Florida tax is the amount of the Federal Estate Tax state tax credit. Since currently there is no state tax credit, there is no Florida Estate Tax - however, that could change if federal law changes. Many states had similar laws and changed them to allow state estate taxes when the federal law changed, but Florida did not.

Edit to correct typo

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

So, are you moving from New Jersey to Florida?

Why not??? There are many great things in Florida. :lol:

The two more important ones being no Income Tax and much much lower Inheritance/Estate taxes

Right now, we have NO estate tax, individual income tax or intangible tax in Florida. On the other hand, our schools stink. Our estate tax is a "sponge" tax meaning that the amount of Florida tax is the amount of the Federal Estate Tax state tax credit. Since currently there is no state tax credit, there is no Florida Estate Tax - however, that could change if federal law changes. Many states had similar laws and changed them to allow state estate taxes when the feral law changed, but Florida did not.

OK, good, nice to know.

 

[PRR 60]

...

Ocala Mike may have more upto date info from the chatter in Florida, but what I have heard in Space Coast Chatter is 2015 or 2016. I have a bit of interest in this since I plan to move to the Space Coast in about that timeframe at the latest.

But, you'll miss out on the delightful change of seasons here in New Jersey!

 

[NE933]

I believe the best way Amtrak can start this for now, is by:

1. using one Amfleet II/Viewliner long distance consist from NYC, by reinstating the Palmetto back into the Silver Palm (giving us back three overnight trains), then running one of them whole down the FEC route, and another one split at Jacksonville. The third or last one, whichever it is, remains on it's current route as is, except for improved running times and longer consists during peak periods.

2. to fully capture it's potential here, Amtrak must somehow get some Amfleet or Horizon cars for a few INTRAstate runs, say two roundtrips Miami to Jacksonville. Until the new bilevels come, if some are destined to go to Florida, I would ask to evaluate releasing some Amfleet I's by dropping the lowest performing Northeast Regional coach section and replacing it with an Acela, make em' work for their money by getting a 17th trainset in use. That leaves three spares in each of the 3 major terminals left. Somebody in a similar discussion raised the issue of cast-off Atlanctic City ACSES cars (eight exist, right) to contribute to a tight equipment pool, though they would have to run uncombined with other types.

3. I'm asking for it, but many people are, louder than ever: the Sunset Ltd. But don't run it, no, KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF FLORIDA -- for now. Decide, think, ponder, whether any return of it would be better on the old route, or this more scenic and faster version on FEC rails. Then, BRING IT ON!! But only with smiles and love, of course....

 

[Eric S]

Until the new bilevels come, if some are destined to go to Florida

The bilevel corridor cars that have been funded (but not yet ordered) are destined for California and the Midwest (IL, MI, MO, potentially IA) alone. Anything beyond that would require additional funding.

 

[NE933]

Until the new bilevels come, if some are destined to go to Florida

The bilevel corridor cars that have been funded (but not yet ordered) are destined for California and the Midwest (IL, MI, MO, potentially IA) alone. Anything beyond that would require additional funding.

Guess we better have a bake sale or something..

 

[jis]

Florida needs to fund its own cars for intrastate service. It is not upto Amtrak to pull cars off from services that it is responsible for (unless it is just a short extension of such service utilizing cars that would otherwise be sitting in a yard) to enable Florida to run intrastate service. So it is highly unlikely that Amfleet Is taken from the NEC will show up in Florida for intrastate service. OTOH creating a section of an LD train to follow a new route is perfectly OK for Amtrak to partake in.

 

[Anderson]

All of the other info I've seen has said at least 90, with passing talk of 110 (and I'm inclined to think that three hours MIA-ORL, assuming three stops, requires a decent amount of 100+ running). Of course, this number was in the article (which of course could always be in error and make this something of a GIGO issue).

The quote is:

"The trip between Jacksonville and Miami would run about 6 1/2 hours, with trains hitting a top speed of 80 mph."

I think this is a rehash of the Amtrak project summary, which predates the FEC bombshell.

As to cars, I don't see an issue with a section of the Star, Meteor, and/or Palm running down the coast or with a train being timed to connect with one of those using Amtrak cars (and running two or three of those would actually provide decent in-state service as well as driving a decent amount of out-of-state service). I also don't see a problem with Amtrak providing rolling stock for a little while provided that Florida puts in their own order. Simply put, I'd rather see Amtrak put up the rolling stock to get the route running sooner than not...there aren't too many new routes that I can think of (Warrington nonsense aside) that have failed to "stick", and I think that once the train gets running along there, a combination of strong performance and general popularity /should/ make an already-running train nigh on impossible to kill.

 

[jis]

But the fly in the ointment is that Amtrak does not have the corridor cars to provide at present. Or so I am told.

In any case all this is at least 3 years away.

My point is that the detailed plan shows 90mph for much of the distance north of West Palm Beach, and that predates any mention of the FEC MIA - ORL project. Also BTW FEC initially plans to be no faster than 90 mph most of the way on the FEC. 110 comes later, and that too, only between West Palm Beach and Cocoa, though I doubt it will be that high through Melbourne and Palm Bay, if they decide it is worth it. We all await their study results.

Also to note, the Amtrak/State of Florida plan does not require double tracking, whereas the FEC plan requires double tracking, which itself will take some time. However, that does not preclude starting a skeletal Miami - Cocoa service as mentioned in the FEC plan, and increase service as track capacity is improved through doubling. The current immediate holdup of course is getting the stations built before service can begin. In any case service to Orlando is several years away. It is one of those cases where assigning nine mothers to the job will not produce a baby in one month elapsed time.

 

[cirdan]

Let's be very careful about using New Mexico as an example It might be gone as fast as it came :unsure: though I am hoping it won't. A motivated Governor can make a lot happen very quickly, just as a negatively motivated Governor can undo things just as fast. OTOH, if something happens in spite of a lukewarm Governor, it is more likely to be more lasting.

Just because something was difficult to achieve doesn't mean it can't be easily swept away.

However, the best guarantee for the survival of any system is its user base. The more people use a service and depend on it, the more there are to angry if it dies and hence political powers will think hard before touching it.

As long as a system hasn't caried a single rider, who is there to be angry or sad when it is killed (besides a handful of railfans?).