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Amtrak Official: Jacksonville-Miami rail going to happen
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I am pretty sure it more had to do with Tom Feeney drawing a district that he could win. He was in the Florida legislature at the time and wanted to run for Congress in District 24 IIRC, and the districts were re-drawn to give 24 and Mica's district a Republican leaning and give District 3 (Corrine Brown), which runs from Jacksonville all the way down to Orlando (and maybe further south a democratic and African American majority). Although our present legislature is supposed to be addressing this - they are doing their best not to (even though the Florida voters mandated it).Sure, why not specifically draw the border for Mica. After all, this is Florida, the gerrymandering capital of the US (maybe outside of Texas). The present legislature is supposed to address this business; let's see what happens.It's in, but just barely.
This website has a very cool google maps display with congressional districts overlaid:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/findyourreps.xpd
Here is a screen capture - the Blue on the left is FL-7 (Mica), the pink on the right is FL-3 (Brown, Corrine):
It certainly looks like the border was drawn specifically to give Mica the facility in his district.
Ocala Mike
Exactly. The current Amtrak station could handle traffic to the FEC or the CSX Mainline. But as jphjaxfl mentioned, there's not a lot of room to split a train (another argument to ADD a train rather than split one).
The former Union Station (JAX Convention Center) could EASILY accomodate extra Amtrak AND (potentially) corridor in-state trains. But if the Silvers were to use that station, a back up move would be required, though not a terribly long one (probably easier to do than Tower 55 on the Texas Eagle) - IF CSX plays nice.
A reminder that Politicians have no shame!
Mica is a hack, the people in Florida must be taking permanent naps to elect sleezos like him!! The old "I was against it before I was for it but after taking a Poll my staff tells me I should feel strongly both ways tap dance! :huh: And the Poster that said Texas is the Gerrymandering Capitol has it right, we call it the Lawyer Full Employment Scam here, this years Maps are already @ the Supremee Court and the meter is running! I still say we all should vote against ALL incumbents this year! There is an old saying that if "None of the Above" was on the bal;lot, it would win everytime! :giggle: :help:
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I think splitting at the current station and then running to a downtown-ish station makes sense based on what I've seen here. The big question that I do have, however, is whether there would be a "bus bridge" of some sort in the event that someone was on the Meteor (or, should it happen, a restored Silver Palm/extended Palmetto) and wanted to do a transfer. Obviously, the current schedule wouldn't allow this, but we all know that there's plenty of room for schedules to get moved.Exactly. The current Amtrak station could handle traffic to the FEC or the CSX Mainline. But as jphjaxfl mentioned, there's not a lot of room to split a train (another argument to ADD a train rather than split one).
The former Union Station (JAX Convention Center) could EASILY accomodate extra Amtrak AND (potentially) corridor in-state trains. But if the Silvers were to use that station, a back up move would be required, though not a terribly long one (probably easier to do than Tower 55 on the Texas Eagle) - IF CSX plays nice.
Another question, looking at the charts: What would be the costs of running 884 through to Jacksonville and having 883 originate there? 886/881 aren't good candidates for this (there seems to be time in the schedule to turn them), but with 884/883, you seem to mostly have a question of where the equipment "sleeps". 881 would leave Jacksonville too early to seriously look at this (3:00/3:30 AM? No thanks.), which would prevent doing this with both 884 and 886, and 884 just seems more "ripe" (10 PM being more sellable than 11 PM). Additionally, this train would actually link well with a JAX-only extension of the Palmetto/Silver Palm if Amtrak ever wanted to do that (IIRC, that train did run NYP-JAX at one point), though 886/881 would require less "parking" time in either JAX or SAV.
Also, what were options A, B, and C? I'm only seeing D&E, so we're missing at least the first three, and possibly others (F and beyond).
The plan is/was to split the Silver Star at Jacksonville and send 1/2 (more or less) of the Star down the FEC corridor. This would provide a one seat ride to Columbia, SC and Raleigh, NC but not to Charleston, SC on the Silver Meteor (and Palmetto) route. But that is a fair trade off as Raleigh provides access to the Piedmont corridor and Charlotte NC. Raleigh looks like they are finally moving ahead on a new station with 2 passenger tracks that would allow 2 trains to be in the station at the same time. Once NC adds several more Piedmont corridor trains, they should look at having a Piedmont provide connecting service to the Star in Raleigh to/from Charlotte, if that is already not in the plans.
The corridor from Miami to Jacksonville should provide respectable ridership numbers for trips within the corridor. There is a substantial and unserved population base along the Florida coast. I find the projected ridership numbers in the FL FEC HSIPR application to be rather low. May take several years for ridership to take off, but if they can get to 3 or more daily round trip trains on the corridor with car competitive trip times, it should do very well.
If FL can start a successful multiple daily frequency service over the FEC along with the NC improvements to the Raleigh to Charlotte corridor, the combination of 2 southern states with intercity corridor trains should have a positive effect on building support for corridor service and passenger trains in Georgia and the southeast. Within Florida, could lead to Miami to Tampa and/or Orlando corridor service. In Georgia, more people will ask why don't we have an Atlanta to Jacksonville (to Orlando or FEC) train? Why not an Atlanta to Charlotte to Raleigh daily train?
Well, and let's not forget that the FEC service is a pretty tame project in terms of capital. Mind you, this goes with my criticism of that bullet train: For the price of an Orlando-Tampa peacock project, you could basically run a corridor network in Florida until mid-century. $250 million is nothing in terms of most rail projects where additional zeroes tend to intrude with frustrating regularity. Then again, to be fair, even a dedicated, grade-separated 125 MPH project along the FECR (that is, with dedicated passenger tracks paralleling the freight tracks, as I believe the ROW allows for) would probably be less than the Orlampa project, as would the planned FECR project plus a 110/125 MPH line from Tampa to Cocoa per the 2006 state rail plan (which would, by the way, enable comparatively quick Miami-Tampa travel).
Let's also not forget that the whole SEHSR network technically extends to Jacksonville, so if more of that project starts coming together over time, there might be room to start expanding corridors...and I do not think that it's unrealistic to suggest that the pile of trains planned for Charlotte-Raleigh and Charlotte-Washington might not eventually net at least one earlier train to extend out of Raleigh and head south towards Savannah and so forth.
Finally...yes, the ridership numbers are probably a bit low, but the PPR numbers are absurdly low. Even if you allow for the ridership figures to be correct, the incremental PPR figures are stupidly low:
For the Corridor Train:
Phase I: Revenue of $1,514,000 on ridership of 86,800 equals ticket revenue of $17.442 per passenger
Phase II/D: Revenue of $2,969,000 on ridership of 190,300 equals ticket revenue of $15.602 per passenger
Phase II/E: Revenue of $2,365,000 on ridership of 150,100 equals ticket revenue of $15.756 per passenger
For the Silver Star Coach:
Phase I: Revenue of $6,594,000 on ridership of 132,700 equals ticket revenue of $52.404 per passenger
Phase II/D: Revenue of $6,767,000 on ridership of 119,300 equals ticket revenue of $56.723 per passenger
Phase II/E: Revenue of $6,835,000 on ridership of 123,800 equals ticket revenue of $55.210 per passenger
For the Silver Star Sleeper:
Phase I: Revenue of $3,919,000 on ridership of 15,800 equals ticket revenue of $248.038 per passenger
Phase II/D: Revenue of $3,911,000 on ridership of 15,500 equals ticket revenue of $252.323 per passenger
Phase II/E: Revenue of $3,915,000 on ridership of 15,600 equals ticket revenue of $250.962 per passenger
The Star's coach numbers seem low as well, particularly if a lot of that is single-seat rides from "points north". Looking at other projects, as well as current revenue trends, I'd expect the coach (and corridor) numbers to be substantially higher. Mind you, there's no stated plan to have any business class on the corridor train (something that surprises me, actually), but even so these numbers seem insanely low for a "mature" route running about 350 miles, particularly one with substantial population density along the route to work with.
Let's also not forget that the whole SEHSR network technically extends to Jacksonville, so if more of that project starts coming together over time, there might be room to start expanding corridors...and I do not think that it's unrealistic to suggest that the pile of trains planned for Charlotte-Raleigh and Charlotte-Washington might not eventually net at least one earlier train to extend out of Raleigh and head south towards Savannah and so forth.
Finally...yes, the ridership numbers are probably a bit low, but the PPR numbers are absurdly low. Even if you allow for the ridership figures to be correct, the incremental PPR figures are stupidly low:
For the Corridor Train:
Phase I: Revenue of $1,514,000 on ridership of 86,800 equals ticket revenue of $17.442 per passenger
Phase II/D: Revenue of $2,969,000 on ridership of 190,300 equals ticket revenue of $15.602 per passenger
Phase II/E: Revenue of $2,365,000 on ridership of 150,100 equals ticket revenue of $15.756 per passenger
For the Silver Star Coach:
Phase I: Revenue of $6,594,000 on ridership of 132,700 equals ticket revenue of $52.404 per passenger
Phase II/D: Revenue of $6,767,000 on ridership of 119,300 equals ticket revenue of $56.723 per passenger
Phase II/E: Revenue of $6,835,000 on ridership of 123,800 equals ticket revenue of $55.210 per passenger
For the Silver Star Sleeper:
Phase I: Revenue of $3,919,000 on ridership of 15,800 equals ticket revenue of $248.038 per passenger
Phase II/D: Revenue of $3,911,000 on ridership of 15,500 equals ticket revenue of $252.323 per passenger
Phase II/E: Revenue of $3,915,000 on ridership of 15,600 equals ticket revenue of $250.962 per passenger
The Star's coach numbers seem low as well, particularly if a lot of that is single-seat rides from "points north". Looking at other projects, as well as current revenue trends, I'd expect the coach (and corridor) numbers to be substantially higher. Mind you, there's no stated plan to have any business class on the corridor train (something that surprises me, actually), but even so these numbers seem insanely low for a "mature" route running about 350 miles, particularly one with substantial population density along the route to work with.
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PaulM
Engineer
I know it's heresy here; but I don't understand the transfer phobia. On a LD trip, I enjoy breaking up the trip by getting out and walking around a strange city for an hour or so or hanging out in a lounge. We're not talking commuting where you have to do it every day.
I understand it. I've had the experience that many travelers do not care to do as you do -- transferring, to them, is a hassle, an inconvenience. It is especially so with the NE market -- the trains going into and exiting NYC should have one-seat rides, otherwise folks will claim it's a hassle.
I really agree with you in principle, but in reality sometimes that hour becomes two or three ... In the middle of the night!
And sometimes, it becomes "negative time" when one of the trains gets held up because of [insert reason here], and you get a missed connection.
I'll agree that there should be a "one seat ride option" on this route; with that said, I don't see a problem if another option eventually develops that does involve a transfer somewhere.
jis
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You really don't need any train to link at JAX with a Palmetto that terminates in Jacksonville, as it has done in the past. Palmetto could just as well run to the Convention Center station and terminate there and originate from there. As a matter of fact that is what it should do. The only issue is with trains that continue onto either the CSX/SunRail line to Orlando or the CSX line towards New Orleans.
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Something else that could be done: Have the Palmetto stop in Jacksonville, then have it run west on the Florida Panhandle. Have the end of the route be Pensacola. It would connect with the FEC train in Jacksonville. Of course, Amtrak would insist that FL come up with some money for the Panhandle operations.
jis
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That adds significant cost since it will now have to become a night train at least part of its journey. It can barely make it to JAX as is in a single day. That is why it was cut back to Savannah AFAIR.
The problem is that the Palmetto is a ~15 hour train from NYP to Savannah. The Silver Star and Meteor trip times from Savannah to Jacksonville is 2 and 1/2 hours (which is rather slow for a 107 mile segment). Extending the Palmetto to Jacksonville would make it a ~17.5 hour day train.
At that point, it might be better to add a couple of sleepers and a diner on it and run it down the FEC overnight to Miami for a direct and quicker NYP-Miami train. Which is not that bad an idea, IMO. Silver Star would still split at Jacksonville and there would be multiple daytime corridor trains. Keep the Palmetto daytime schedule framework from NYP to Savannah, although slipping the departure from NYP to an hour or 2 later - if a departure slot from NYP at rush hour can be found - would probably help with the overall timing. Would provide a late night or overnight train service on the FEC.
That would extend the Palmetto even further which is not really possible without sleeper cars. The better solution, although not in the Florida near or medium term plans at all from what I see, would be for Florida to fund a corridor train service from Pensacola to Jacksonville. If the FEC corridor service is seen as very successful, that could lead to people and politicians in Tallahassee and the Panhandle ask, hey, why don't we have passenger train service?
trainviews
Service Attendant
At least JAX -Tallahasse should be very feasible and could be done as an extension of an FEC corridor train. But I think it will be hard to get the Florida politicians to pay for a train on a LD corridor that Amtrak has kept "suspended" for what looks like indenfinately...
There is no plan and no need for 2 passenger stations in Jacksonville. The current station was built because Amtrak couldn't afford to operate the large Union Terminal. I came through JAX on one of the first trains to use the new station on the Floridian around New Years 1973& which still split in JAX. Now almost 40 yrs later, everyone agrees that the location was a mistake. There is plenty of room to build an Amtrak passenger Station along side the Convention Center which is nicely restored compared to when Amtrak last used it. Operating two stations in Jacksonville would be very expensive and serve no purpose. Most people new to Jacksonville and younger people have no idea that JAX even has Amtrak passenger service because the station os so remote. Service on the FEC will be a lot more visible because it will travel through a more populated area. Everyone knows where the Convention Center is. Visitors often ask why trains are not stopping there.
I actually do like this idea...but more because the FEC (at least to me) feels like it is long enough that, especially if you already had a couple of departures on it, an overnight train in the vein of the Twilight Shoreliner would make sense if you could get enough business in general. Honestly, if you extended the Palmetto to JAX (and transferred as much padding from further up the route to JAX to try and ensure that the departure there was on time), had a set-out sleeper available for JAX-MIA, and tinkered with the timetable so the MIA arrival was late enough/allowed later occupancy (i.e. the train leaves JAX sometime around midnight, arrives in MIA at about 7 AM, and occupancy is allowed until 7:30 AM regardless of arrival time), it could work...but this may just be my thinking that the "overnight trip" market is really under-served by Amtrak creeping in. Mind you, I also think there's a definite market for a later Miami departure getting to JAX than the Star allows (though 3:15 isn't bad, to be fair), but that's just me.
The overnight JAX-MIA trains on both the FEC and SAL disappeared quite a while before Amtrak. They both carried an RPO cars and other mail hauling cars and when the RPOs were discontinued, the entire train was discontinued with months. I don't think you'll see a JAX -MIA overnight train. You will see the Star split and combine at JAX and you will see a round trip coach (maybe business class ) snack bar train leaving MIA in the early am and leaving JAX late afternoon.
Was this during the mid-60s? I ask mainly because of the...interesting situation at the FEC during that time.
I don't see why that Amtrak has "suspended" service would be a major consideration except that it means those cities don't currently have passenger train service which in turn means there is likely to be greater resistance to the idea of paying for a passenger train. CSX is likely to demand 100s of millions for track and signal upgrades to allow a multiple daily frequency corridor service to run over their tracks. They would likely do that even if the Sunset Limited were still running over those tracks.
If Florida were to pay for those track and signal upgrades for a class IV 79 mph route and start a Jacksonville to Pensacola corridor service, that would enhance the chances of restoring the Sunset Limited to run east to Jacksonville and then Orlando. The state and local communities would pick up the tab for station maintenance and staffing and the state for trip time improvements. The corridor service would provide a larger customer base to draw on for the SL. In short, the SL might get to a sustainable cost recovery number for the route east of New Orleans.
One of the facts that jumped out at me when I read the recent PIP report for the Silvers, was that the top city pairs for the Palmetto were: Charleston-NYP 7%, Fayetteville-NYP 4%, Florence-NYP 4%. This is impressive with the Palmetto departing NYP at 6:15 AM and arrives at 11:47 PM. The 6:15 AM time means that the passengers getting on at NYP is likely mostly limited to those living in or very close to NYC. Anyone starting from SE CT or further north of NYC has to get leave in the wee AM hours to get to NYP in time to take the Palmetto southbound. If the Palmetto could trim some time off of the NYP to Savannah journey and somehow get a 8 AM departure slot (to not follow the Carolinian too closely), it could draw on a larger passenger base for those taking day trips to NC and SC destinations.
What does that have to with the FEC? Well, if the Palmetto were to become the Silver Palm with sleeper service to Miami over the FEC, there would be 3 daily LD trains departing NYP spread over the day: Silver Palm in the early-mid morning, Silver Star at midday (11 AM close enough) and Silver Meteor mid to late afternoon (slide departure out to 4 PM, still gets to FL and Orlando at reasonable times of the day). The three trains would cover the same route from NYP to Rocky Mount, NC on the northern end and West Palm Beach to Miami on the southern end with different routes in between for people not going end to end to pick from. The northbound Silver Palm would depart Miami early evening, offering a spread of 3 departure times over the day from southern FL. The spread of departure times should allow for same day turn-around and more efficient equipment utilization between the 3 trains.
Running overnight over the FEC would not offer a big passenger load in FL for the Silver Palm, but the population base may be big enough to support it. May be some in FL on the southbound leg who want to get to Miami by early morning for business trips, day trips to Miami. The FEC opens up a range of LD train options that one hopes Amtrak will look at.
Florida's plan is/was for more than 1 daily corridor train. Phase 2 of their FY10 HSIPR application called for 3 additional daily Cocoa to Miami trains. Which I find a little odd, as Cocoa does not have a large population in of itself. May be in part a placeholder to see how much business they get with a end to end Jacksonville-Miami train. Jacksonville is the largest FL city population wise at 821 thousand within the city boundaries, so the 2 biggest cities in FL do make for logical endpoints for a corridor service.
Before looking at how the trains did 40 or 50 years ago, one must take into account the enormous population growth in Florida since the 1960s and A-day. Census numbers according to Wikipedia (before they go into global protest blackout) for Florida:
1970: 6.79 million
1980: 9.75 million
1990: 12.94 million
2000: 15.98 million
2010: 18.80 million
That is a lot of people and I would venture a lot of really bad traffic jams.
George Harris
Engineer
There pre-Amtrak Jax-Mia overnights were secondary runs with multiple stops and low overall average speeds. Thye had late night departures, early mornign arrivals at New York City, so, out of New York, these were two nights one day services.
If you had a train that left Miami early eveninig arrived New York City not too late the next evening (yes it would be very early AM in Jacksonville) northbound and was scheduled to have a reasonably early morning arrival southbound at West Palm Beach and mid morning at Miami, which would give it a reasoable mornign departure in New York and a past midnight time at Jacksonville, you would have a much more desirable product than these pre-Amtrak trains. The much larger Florida population would not hurt the ridership numbers, either.
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