Amtrak Official: Jacksonville-Miami rail going to happen

[Anderson]

Florida's situation is a headache and then some. Mind you, an ideal situation would see most trains focused on Orlampa plus the East Coast (with coverage down to Naples or on the old Silver Palm line in northern Florida optional), but the lack of a decent Orlando-FEC link makes that pretty hard. For all that Florida's population has clustered nicely in a lot of cases, it's clustered in too many corridors for a number of city pairs to work well. To top this off, the I-4 corridor veers off of the A-line, complicating a /lot/ of efforts on that front (witness the long-term Sunrail plans, which simply cannot connect directly to the Daytona area, instead terminating in Deland).

As to the point about the runs in/to Florida: As noted above, Florida-NEC service has a lot going for it that didn't exist back in the 1970s. Assuming a population of about 7 million at A-Day, Florida will have roughly tripled in size since then with the passage of a few more years. Moreover, when you look back at 1970/71, Orlando wasn't yet the destination it is now. While Disney World was present, it was smaller than it is now; likewise, Universal was still nearly 20 years off; Busch Gardens was much less of a major park at the time, SeaWorld didn't exist...central Florida then simply wasn't what it is now. Of course, there was more focus on the coast...but even those resorts have grown as time has gone by.

One thing that I don't think has been considered is that if Amtrak wanted to, overnight trains with morning arrivals in Miami and Orlando/Kissimmee/Tampa could be pitched as "getting you to Florida before the parks open". Right now, I can not get into Kissimmee before about 11 AM, which means that there's no way I can get to Disney before about noon if I'm being honest about picking up a rental car and/or dropping my bags off at a hotel. Likewise, I can't hope to hit Tampa before 12:30, which means I'm not going to be on the beach before mid-afternoon. Moving those times up by about 3-4 hours for the Orlando branch of things would be /really/ nice. Likewise, being able to go from somewhere to Miami and get there before dinner time would be a good selling point (an 8 AM arrival into Miami would probably sell some tickets). In that same vein, evening departures from these places could be pitched as giving you the "whole last day" in Florida.

Of course, another point to consider is that while NEC-Florida service is a big thing, Virginia and North Carolina are two other markets to seriously look at. NYP-MIA is always going to be a rather long run, but something that could somehow focus on serving the area between Washington and Charlotte (such as the idea of rerouting the Star to serve CLT)? Again, you start gaining business from those other intermediate markets...and I'm not even considering Atlanta here for reasons discussed elsewhere involving a certain airline.

But anyhow...looking at Florida proper, the biggest hangup I can see going forward is how to link Tampa, Orlando, and associated areas with the FEC. Orlando proper is a /big/ problem (witness how the HSR plan completely skipped it), but the whole region is disengaged from the coast as far as rail goes. Also, the geography presents a problem in the vein of an essay I saw on linking the San Francisco Airport to the rail system...no matter what, unless you were running a lot of trains and willing to set up some interesting switching options, you had to run some sort of transfer to the airport line (either by running trains through to the airport and forcing a transfer to continue on southwards or by forcing the transfer to go to the airport). In most cases, a train coming up the coast from Miami can go to Orlando or Jacksonville, but not both.

Ideally, looking at the 2006 plan, some sort of rail line along FL528 would allow you to run corridor trains from Tampa to Cocoa. A question: Is there some way that a corridor train could be sent into the Orlando station with a push-pull configuration, stopped there for a 5 minute hold for the engineer to get to the other end of the train, and then run back south and out to Cocoa via 528 "backwards" via the use of a cab car? Is there some other way to "cover" Orlando with a decent link into downtown that doesn't involve switching to surface buses (i.e. something that will NOT sell with business travelers)? Looking at this was something that always killed the bullet train in my mind...if you don't somehow hit Orlando proper, you might get tourist traffic but you miss out on business traffic, and that will be a component on corridor services. I'm expecting that you'll have a forced transfer at Cocoa a fair portion of the time (though if Florida got its act together...they're already buying one chunk of the A-line as it is, and they could probably acquire more if they so desired...they could probably run much closer connections at Cocoa than they allow most of the time), but even this could be limited (if they're running 4-5 trains per day Miami-Cocoa, you could "pair" one or two that stop at Cocoa with ones that are going from Cocoa to Tampa and simply run sets through rather than forcing transfers).

 

[MattW]

In terms of linking Florida's major peninsular cities, what I'd go for is a link from Cocoa to perhaps Winter Park where it rejoins existing trackage down into Orlando proper and beyond. The reason I choose Cocoa over the more direct routing of going to Titusville is Cocoa makes a good junction point as a major junction in a three-way rail system, but mostly for its value as a terminus for trips. What I mean is Cocoa makes a better destination itself, in my opinion, than Titusville due to its proximity to Cocoa Beach, Port Canaveral (lots of cruise ship traffic) and the Kennedy Space Center and Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. And what I mean in a three-way rail system is having three routes, JAX-MIA, JAX-TPA via ORL, and MIA-TPA via ORL. Excluding the destination desirability of Cocoa itself, it admittedly doesn't matter too much where the turn to and from ORL-TPA is made of course.

If any of this seems a bit discombobulated, I do apologize, but it's late and it's been one of those days

 

[Anderson]

Matt,

It makes perfect sense...and something like that does seem to be in the cards in the long run, from what I can tell in the '06 plan plus the more recent stuff.

By the way, as a random aside, I just stumbled across the FEC in my '56 Official Guide. The FEC's "Daylight Express" 29/30 is a fun example of a non-express...366 miles in 12 hours (30.5 MPH) with 75 timetabled stops JAX-MIA (mind you, 43 list as flag stops, but you've got another 5 or 10 un-timed flag stops as well). Talk about "stops everywhere" (as well as "don't want to replicate"!).

 

[jphjaxfl]

Matt,

It makes perfect sense...and something like that does seem to be in the cards in the long run, from what I can tell in the '06 plan plus the more recent stuff.

By the way, as a random aside, I just stumbled across the FEC in my '56 Official Guide. The FEC's "Daylight Express" 29/30 is a fun example of a non-express...366 miles in 12 hours (30.5 MPH) with 75 timetabled stops JAX-MIA (mind you, 43 list as flag stops, but you've got another 5 or 10 un-timed flag stops as well). Talk about "stops everywhere" (as well as "don't want to replicate"!).

It was primarily a mail and express train meaning Railway Express to serve all the much smaller towns that have grown between Jacksonville and Miami and that was before I-95,

 

[trainviews]

At least JAX -Tallahasse should be very feasible and could be done as an extension of an FEC corridor train. But I think it will be hard to get the Florida politicians to pay for a train on a LD corridor that Amtrak has kept "suspended" for what looks like indenfinately...

I don't see why that Amtrak has "suspended" service would be a major consideration except that it means those cities don't currently have passenger train service which in turn means there is likely to be greater resistance to the idea of paying for a passenger train. CSX is likely to demand 100s of millions for track and signal upgrades to allow a multiple daily frequency corridor service to run over their tracks. They would likely do that even if the Sunset Limited were still running over those tracks.

If Florida were to pay for those track and signal upgrades for a class IV 79 mph route and start a Jacksonville to Pensacola corridor service, that would enhance the chances of restoring the Sunset Limited to run east to Jacksonville and then Orlando. The state and local communities would pick up the tab for station maintenance and staffing and the state for trip time improvements. The corridor service would provide a larger customer base to draw on for the SL. In short, the SL might get to a sustainable cost recovery number for the route east of New Orleans.

I fully agree - in terms of railroading. I just think it will be a hard sell to get the Florida politicians to cough up with an operating subsidy for Amtrak, while Amtrak is not running the LD train on the route that is scheduled and supposed to be paid on Amtrak's dime.

 

[jis]

In terms of linking Florida's major peninsular cities, what I'd go for is a link from Cocoa to perhaps Winter Park where it rejoins existing trackage down into Orlando proper and beyond. The reason I choose Cocoa over the more direct routing of going to Titusville is Cocoa makes a good junction point as a major junction in a three-way rail system, but mostly for its value as a terminus for trips. What I mean is Cocoa makes a better destination itself, in my opinion, than Titusville due to its proximity to Cocoa Beach, Port Canaveral (lots of cruise ship traffic) and the Kennedy Space Center and Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. And what I mean in a three-way rail system is having three routes, JAX-MIA, JAX-TPA via ORL, and MIA-TPA via ORL. Excluding the destination desirability of Cocoa itself, it admittedly doesn't matter too much where the turn to and from ORL-TPA is made of course.

If any of this seems a bit discombobulated, I do apologize, but it's late and it's been one of those days

It is also easier to find an ROW to Cocoa from the west via the 528 alignment than it is to find an ROW to Titusville.

The only hope of getting through to the CBD of Orlando from the north from such a line would be to run it from 528 along the 417 and 408 alignment just north of the CBD to join the SunRail line there. Getting through the Winter Park area with a RoW from the east is going to be not easy or cheap. Very rich and influential NIMBYs abound.

 

[George Harris]

If Florida were to pay for those track and signal upgrades for a class IV 79 mph route and start a Jacksonville to Pensacola corridor service, that would enhance the chances of restoring the Sunset Limited to run east to Jacksonville and then Orlando. The state and local communities would pick up the tab for station maintenance and staffing and the state for trip time improvements. The corridor service would provide a larger customer base to draw on for the SL. In short, the SL might get to a sustainable cost recovery number for the route east of New Orleans.

The line already has signals between Tallahassee and Jacksonville. The segment Tallahassee to Pensacola (and on to Flomaton AL) does need signals. Since the freight speed limit is already 49 mph west of Tallahassee and 50 mph east of Tallahassee, track quality will permit 79 mph as is. There are, however, quite a few areas with lower speeds due to curves and other factors.

 

[user 1215]

Last night, I had the opportunity to sit on the 15th floor of the Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront hotel, overlooking FEC's Strauss Trunnion Bascule Bridge.

Couldn't help but wonder outloud to my kids how soon we could be seeing Amtrak cross that bridge on a daily basis.

One thing I noticed, though... As the southbound trains crossed the bridge, they then seemed to blow their horns endlessly. Lots of grade crossings to deal with!

 

[jis]

Take a look at this map, and you will see why. The railroad down the middle is the FEC.

 

[afigg]

Take a look at this map, and you will see why. The railroad down the middle is the FEC.

Separating all those grade crossings would cost more than a few bucks if they wanted to do that for higher speed upgrades. Would not be a easy project either with the tracks going under I-95, but at street level for the crossings.

 

[TWA904]

Why does there need to be two daily trains into Orlando. Here is my thought. Let the Silver Star continue to run on its current schedule.

Have the Silver Meteor run from Jacksonville to Miami on the FEC. Extend the Palmetto to Miami, but when it leaves Jacksonville have it go through

Waldo(Gainesville) and Ocala to Tampa and them to Miami. The Gainesville/Ocala counties have nearly 700,000 peaople and few transportation

alternatives. As I recall, the last time Ocala had Amtrak the trains came through in the middle of the night and still did very well on boardings.

 

[afigg]

Why does there need to be two daily trains into Orlando.

Orlando is the busiest station in Florida other than the Autotrain in Sanford. Gets a lot of business from the two Silvers for people traveling from/to the northeast and for Orlando - south Florida. With Orlando becoming the center of the SunRail commuter system, Amtrak is likely to see even more business from the Orlando area as people discover that Amtrak has trains to Orlando. Perhaps the question should be why are there only 2 daily Amtrak trains to Orlando? If the FEC corridor service succeeds, a logical next step may be to start a Miami-Orlando-Tampa corridor service.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Why does there need to be two daily trains into Orlando. Here is my thought. Let the Silver Star continue to run on its current schedule.

Have the Silver Meteor run from Jacksonville to Miami on the FEC. Extend the Palmetto to Miami, but when it leaves Jacksonville have it go through

Waldo(Gainesville) and Ocala to Tampa and them to Miami. The Gainesville/Ocala counties have nearly 700,000 peaople and few transportation

alternatives. As I recall, the last time Ocala had Amtrak the trains came through in the middle of the night and still did very well on boardings.

I traveled on one of the last Palmetto from Jacksonville to Tampa via the former Seaboard Line through Ocala and Wildwood. There was some off and on boardings, but not as much as when the Silvers traveled on the S line during the day. I-4 is packed between Orlando and Tampa. The high speed rail line that Scott gave away was much needed and it would have eventually been extended to Miami via a new alinement. To really make a difference in the Orlando area, a high speed limited grade crossing line is needed.

 

[jis]

With the SunRail agreement in place, it is very highly unlikely that there will be any passenger train via Ocala anymore. Any service to Tampa from the north will be via Orlando. It is also unlikely that there will be a facility reinstated in Tampa to turn an Amtrak LD train. I am sure facilities for turning day trains will get set up in Tampa eventually, and maybe that could make it possible to turn an LD train there someday, but not in the immediate future.

The reason that it would be a bad idea to reroute Silver Meteor away from Orlando is that it is the premier New York - Orlando train. That is the reason it carries three Sleepers, and not because all those Sleeper folks travel to Miami or even beyond Orlando/Kissimmee. The exodus from Sleepers at Orlando is a sight to behold. Actually Amtrak should more aggressively sell Sleeper space for day travelers within Florida beyond Orlando.

 

[Ocala Mike]

With the SunRail agreement in place, it is very highly unlikely that there will be any passenger train via Ocala anymore. Any service to Tampa from the north will be via Orlando.

Absolutely correct! The "S" line is earmarked for freight only, so those of us in Ocala where we lost steel wheels back in 2004 can forget about ever seeing them again. Moreover, we're supposed to look forward to far more grade-crossing delays as freights are diverted from the "A" line to the "S" line. I now consider my "home" stations to be Palatka(N/B) and Deland(S/B); I won't ride an Ambus.

Ocala Mike

 

[Anderson]

With the SunRail agreement in place, it is very highly unlikely that there will be any passenger train via Ocala anymore. Any service to Tampa from the north will be via Orlando.

Absolutely correct! The "S" line is earmarked for freight only, so those of us in Ocala where we lost steel wheels back in 2004 can forget about ever seeing them again. Moreover, we're supposed to look forward to far more grade-crossing delays as freights are diverted from the "A" line to the "S" line. I now consider my "home" stations to be Palatka(N/B) and Deland(S/B); I won't ride an Ambus.

Ocala Mike

That's a shame...but in some ways, if we could trade time separation on JAX-ORL via DLD (i.e. exclusively passenger runs on that segment) for either a complete loss on the Ocala line, it's not that bad. With that said, there might be enough demand on the western routing that the subject gets raised again at some point (i.e. if the Ambus starts getting extremely crowded), but I can't count on my hair still being dark by then.

As to the point on Orlando: Orlando and Kissimmee are "the" tourist destination in Florida today, versus 50 years ago, when it was generally the coast that got the tourist traffic. The only reason I'd be inclined to terminate a train at Tampa is if you could save a set and the train were run via ORL; likewise, I'm at least not averse to running a train down the West Coast, but it has to go to ORL. FEC corridor trains notwithstanding, any Florida train needs Orlando on the route.

On the HSR line: My biggest problem with it was the lack of passenger interchange in ORL. There was no way to do a transfer there (at least not without changing trains twice), which meant that, even assuming the Miami section was also completed, there was no way to do Amtrak to Orlando and then switch to HSR. After that, problem #2 is how close to those travel times you could get with upgrades to existing tracks (you're looking at 1/4 the cost to get within 15 minutes)...it's a nice idea, but there were (and are) better places to deploy those dollars, even within Florida.

 

[AlanB]

IIRC, even way back when the Silver Palm still ran and the idea of running on the FEC first got discussed back in the Warrington years, the plan never saw any trains running exclusively on the FEC. As I recall things, all three trains were to split in JAX, each sending a section down the FEC. The Meteor's other half was to still continue down the A line through Orlando and then onto Miami. The Star's other half was to continue as normal through Orlando, but then run to Tampa and terminate there. The Palm's other half was to run on the S line like normal back then, to Tampa and then continue on to Miami.

IMHO it would have provided Florida with some very nice service, had that plan been realized back then. And it's quite likely that the Palm would have survived too, instead of being cut back to Savannah to become the Palmetto.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I wonder if the Winter Park station is a tourist destination as well? It probably is even though they don't get the same or equal amount of passengers Orlando and Kissimmee does.

 

[afigg]

IIRC, even way back when the Silver Palm still ran and the idea of running on the FEC first got discussed back in the Warrington years, the plan never saw any trains running exclusively on the FEC. As I recall things, all three trains were to split in JAX, each sending a section down the FEC. The Meteor's other half was to still continue down the A line through Orlando and then onto Miami. The Star's other half was to continue as normal through Orlando, but then run to Tampa and terminate there. The Palm's other half was to run on the S line like normal back then, to Tampa and then continue on to Miami.

IMHO it would have provided Florida with some very nice service, had that plan been realized back then. And it's quite likely that the Palm would have survived too, instead of being cut back to Savannah to become the Palmetto.

Splitting all 3 LD trains in Jacksonville could have been rather complicated if one train was running late and they had to handle joining or splitting 2 trains at the same tine.

As for restoring the Silver Palm, that could happen in a few years if service is restored over the FEC and passenger demand growth continues on the Silvers. Sustained $4 to $5 a gallon gas will effect the travel options on the east coast when that happens. Amtrak probably would have to get a couple more baggage-dorms and diners to meet the fleet needs, but they could always exercise a small part of the option order or tack on to a large coach car order when the time comes.

Edited to fix typos

 

[Anderson]

IIRC, even way back when the Silver Palm still ran and the idea of running on the FEC first got discussed back in the Warrington years, the plan never saw any trains running exclusively on the FEC. As I recall things, all three trains were to split in JAX, each sending a section down the FEC. The Meteor's other half was to still continue down the A line through Orlando and then onto Miami. The Star's other half was to continue as normal through Orlando, but then run to Tampa and terminate there. The Palm's other half was to run on the S line like normal back then, to Tampa and then continue on to Miami.

IMHO it would have provided Florida with some very nice service, had that plan been realized back then. And it's quite likely that the Palm would have survived too, instead of being cut back to Savannah to become the Palmetto.

Splitting all 3 LD trains in Jacksonville could have been rather complicated if one train was running late and they had to handle joining or splitting 2 trains at the same tine.

As for restoring the Silver Palm, that could happen in a few years if service is restored over the FEC and passenger demand growth continues on the Silvers. Sustained $4 to $5 a gallon gas will effect the travel options on the east coast when that happens. Amtrak probably would have to get a couple more baggage-dorms and diners to meet the fleet needs, but they could always exercise a small part of the option order or tack on a large coach csr order when the time comes.

It depends on how they're scheduled...but I've thought that using split LD trains would be a good way to get corridor service here "on the cheap". Also, if there was some sort of "transcoach" or if enough Horizon equipment gets freed up by the 130 car order, you could have a couple of coaches that "cut" in JAX on the trains (since corridor service tends to involve a lot more coach traffic than private room traffic).

I tend to agree that a restored Silver Palm is likely; looking back, I think it was probably doomed by equipment restrictions (i.e. the sleeper shortage)...75 sleepers probably offers enough equipment for 36-ish sleepers (probably the minimum for three Florida trains) to be dedicated to Florida service without squeezing the other single-level trains.

 

[afigg]

I wonder if the Winter Park station is a tourist destination as well? It probably is even though they don't get the same or equal amount of passengers Orlando and Kissimmee does.

Winter Park gets fewer passengers than Orlando (obvious) or Kissimmee. The numbers of Boardings plus Alightings for the 3 stations in FY2011 from the the Florida FY11 state fact sheet:

Winter Park: 34,858

Orlando: 179,142

Kissimmee: 47,823

You can see that a lot of people get on and off in Orlando. Not that big a difference between Winter Park and Kissimmee. The SunRail commuter system which will fix up tracks and the stations over a 61 mile route is likely to boost ridership for the Silver trains at the Amtrak station on the SunRail corridor when the Phase 1 segment starts passenger service in 2014 (or later).

Edit: should proof read more carefully...

 

[NE933]

Resurrecting the Silver Palm as the 1990's Long Distance train is to me, a must. The ridership is there, and can be the train that takes the FEC Flagler line. But also, Amtrak should bring back the early 80's version of the Silver Palm (call it something else: Silver Atlantic?) which ran as an intrastate, from Tampa to Miami via the Auburndale junction, but just make it go down the FEC instead. Use the last years of the Horizons for it and if it succeeds, give it the yet to be built 'Amfleet III's'.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I wonder if the Winter Park station is a tourist destination as well? It probably is even though they don't get the same or equal amount of passengers Orlando and Kissimmee does.

the SunRail corridor when the Phase 1 segment starts passenger service in 2014 (or later).

I hope sooner then later it starts.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Resurrecting the Silver Palm as the 1990's Long Distance train is to me, a must. The ridership is there, and can be the train that takes the FEC Flagler line. But also, Amtrak should bring back the early 80's version of the Silver Palm (call it something else: Silver Atlantic?) which ran as an intrastate, from Tampa to Miami via the Auburndale junction, but just make it go down the FEC instead. Use the last years of the Horizons for it and if it succeeds, give it the yet to be built 'Amfleet III's'.

Given the large order of Viewliners on order and the eventual order of Viewliner coaches I highly doubt we will ever see Amfleet IIIs on the Amtrak system or on any system for that matter. Other then that what you said about the Silver Palm being resurrected is true.

 

[afigg]

Resurrecting the Silver Palm as the 1990's Long Distance train is to me, a must. The ridership is there, and can be the train that takes the FEC Flagler line. But also, Amtrak should bring back the early 80's version of the Silver Palm (call it something else: Silver Atlantic?) which ran as an intrastate, from Tampa to Miami via the Auburndale junction, but just make it go down the FEC instead. Use the last years of the Horizons for it and if it succeeds, give it the yet to be built 'Amfleet III's'.

We will not see Amfleet IIIs. Viewliner LD coach and cafe-diner cars, yes, although not clear when an order might be placed, New single level corridor cars, someday, yes. But they will be based on the Next Generation single level corridor car specifications and look far more like the Viewliners in shape and size than the Amtubes. They may even be CAF built Viewliners.

As for restoring a Silver Palm by extending the Palmetto, I think it should and will eventually happen. The market size and demand is there for 3 LD trains running on the east coast from NYP to Florida over different routes and different schedules, IMO.