Amtrak's New "Fresh Choices" Dining on CL & LSL

[jis]

Remove the Sleepers, the Long Distance train dies.

If higher/premium accommodations are such a drag, I can't fathom for an instant why there is a single First/Business/Premium Coach seat flying anymore. I mean, shouldn't all airlines be more like Southwest and RyanAir?

For domestic flying, AFAICT the First Class Cabin is there mostly to give free upgrades to high mileage customers as a perk. It is amazing what proportion of a typical First Class cabin in domestic flights is populated by complementary upgrades. Also a significant proportion after that are continuations from international upper class legs. The dynamics of upper class usage domestically is quite interesting these days.

One should also note that Southwest and Ryanair are either the largest or close to the largest ariline in their market and certainly at least as much if not more profitable than the full service carriers. That ought to also say something about the nature of the market.

As for LD trains and Sleeper, The late lamented Pioneer, when it started originally, was a Coach and Cafe train that ran overnight and it never came as close to breaking even as it did back then after all the bells and whistles were added to it. Unfortunately, now it is close to impossible to start an overnight Coach and Cafe train in this country, and the only remaining one is the 65/66/67. It is as if, unless the top 10-15% are catered to, the remaining 90% are not worthy of being provided any service. Why does that make any sense whatsoever?

 

[Blackwolf]

Remove the Sleepers, the Long Distance train dies.

If higher/premium accommodations are such a drag, I can't fathom for an instant why there is a single First/Business/Premium Coach seat flying anymore. I mean, shouldn't all airlines be more like Southwest and RyanAir?

For domestic flying, AFAICT the First Class Cabin is there mostly to give free upgrades to high mileage customers as a perk. It is amazing what proportion of a typical First Class cabin in domestic flights is populated by complementary upgrades. Also a significant proportion after that are continuations from international upper class legs. The dynamics of upper class usage domestically is quite interesting these days.

One should also note that Southwest and Ryanair are either the largest or close to the largest ariline in their market and certainly at least as much if not more profitable than the full service carriers. That ought to also say something about the nature of the market.

As for LD trains and Sleeper, The late lamented Pioneer, when it started originally, was a Coach and Cafe train that ran overnight and it never came as close to breaking even as it did back then after all the bells and whistles were added to it. Unfortunately, now it is close to impossible to start an overnight Coach and Cafe train in this country, and the only remaining one is the 65/66/67. It is as if, unless the top 10-15% are catered to, the remaining 90% are not worthy of being provided any service. Why does that make any sense whatsoever?

It makes sense in the light of providing value for the money spent by the traveler. As I've advocated in the past, Amtrak's Sleeper offerings are an anachronistic product in many ways; they're not something a majority of prospective customers can easily relate to or will be knowledgeable about when viewing the Amtrak booking page. In comparing it to domestic airline travel, the business of offering upper class upgrades as a perk to high mileage customers is not even slightly a factor for Amtrak. Heck, absent using vouchers, Amtrak can't even do such a thing for AGR premium customers on the short-distance lines like Acela and State Route trains. It is a totally different business (that needs some overhauling.)

For an over-night route, a second premium class of service should unquestionably be offered. Full-scale sleeper service at best, or lie-flat seats as an alternative. If Amtrak becomes nothing more than Southwest on wheels, I am one of those coveted younger customers who will cease to consider Amtrak for my travel needs entirely.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The fact that so many people, including members of this board, are convinced that an overnight train must be run with full dining car and sleepers is a problem for LD trains.

The Lake Shore and Capitol do not serve that many meals... they are a natural choice to drop the "full dining" cars. Paying a full diner staff for - 1 breakfast and 1 lunch (only to NYC Bound pax) on the eastbound Lake shore is not a good use of money.

Now the western trains that serve several full meal services are a different story.

 

[TiBike]

If Amtrak becomes nothing more than Southwest on wheels, I am one of those coveted younger customers who will cease to consider Amtrak for my travel needs entirely.

Suppose the Starlight's schedule was changed or service was otherwise redesigned so that you had day time train service in Chico, maybe morning southbound/evening northbound. Would you consider that a good trade for dining cars or even sleepers? I don't know what the coming changes, if any, will look like, but trade offs of that sort are an optimistic (from my perspective) interpretation of the rumors. What do you think?

 

[Blackwolf]

If Amtrak becomes nothing more than Southwest on wheels, I am one of those coveted younger customers who will cease to consider Amtrak for my travel needs entirely.

Suppose the Starlight's schedule was changed or service was otherwise redesigned so that you had day time train service in Chico, maybe morning southbound/evening northbound. Would you consider that a good trade for dining cars or even sleepers? I don't know what the coming changes, if any, will look like, but trade offs of that sort are an optimistic (from my perspective) interpretation of the rumors. What do you think?

I am a supporter of Dining Cars; I'm not a supporter of how the Amtrak Dining Cars are run. The operations are extremely inefficient, the food quality is poor and the service is typically mediocre to poor with a few outlier experiences. The reasons are convoluted, are seemingly insurmountable in the environment that Amtrak operates in, and are IMHO at the root of why there are such high losses in food service on Amtrak. For trips lasting multiple meal periods, be they State-Supported routes or Long Distance named trains, I am an adherent supporter of having meal service and not just processed edibles for sale with the service likened to that of an AM/PM gas station attendant. There needs to be great customer service and quality selection. The methods of providing those two items are ripe for change, but you have to retain high standards for service and quality at all costs.

The answer to your question regarding the Starlight is a negative. I would not support that, because it would simply mean shoving the burden to another community that has service. Just because Chico, Redding, and Dunsmiur have awful calling times does not mean the answer should be a coin-toss. As others have stated, the answer is having more frequencies to serve the stops. I believe there is more than enough ridership already, with a large amount of growth potential, to provide two more round-trip services between Redding and Sacramento with stops along the route in Red Bluff, Chico, Live Oak, and Yuba City/Marysville. Keep the Starlight on its current schedule (and make sure the darn train runs well-maintained and on time!)

I have never heard anyone make the claim that Sleepers lose money. Especially at the prices they are charging! And I would go out on a limb and say that the one-night routes may even successfully transition to lie-flat service as an alternative to full sleepers; this includes the Starlight.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The Starlight is a Western LD Train that runs for TWO Nights between LAX and SEA.

I know lie flat seats on the Airlines are nice, but not for a 2 Day/2Night trip on Trains unless Amtrak wants to consider going back to the Slumber Coach as a less expensive alternate to Sleeping Car Rooms.

 

[Blackwolf]

The Starlight is a Western LD Train that runs for TWO Nights between LAX and SEA.

I know lie flat seats on the Airlines are nice, but not for a 2 Day/2Night trip on Trains unless Amtrak wants to consider going back to the Slumber Coach as a less expensive alternate to Sleeping Car Rooms.

The Starlight is a one night train.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The Starlight is a Western LD Train that runs for TWO Nights between LAX and SEA.

I know lie flat seats on the Airlines are nice, but not for a 2 Day/2Night trip on Trains unless Amtrak wants to consider going back to the Slumber Coach as a less expensive alternate to Sleeping Car Rooms.

The Starlight is a one night train.

My bad, I was thinking of arriving into SEA in the dark.Senior Moment!( But it is a 33 Hour ride from LAX to SEA so lets say its a Hybrid, a Day and a half Train.)YMMV

 

[TiBike]

The answer to your question regarding the Starlight is a negative. I would not support that, because it would simply mean shoving the burden to another community that has service. Just because Chico, Redding, and Dunsmiur have awful calling times does not mean the answer should be a coin-toss. As others have stated, the answer is having more frequencies to serve the stops. I believe there is more than enough ridership already, with a large amount of growth potential, to provide two more round-trip services between Redding and Sacramento with stops along the route in Red Bluff, Chico, Live Oak, and Yuba City/Marysville. Keep the Starlight on its current schedule (and make sure the darn train runs well-maintained and on time!)

That's what I meant by "otherwise redesigned". If the result was better timed and more frequent trains, would it be a good trade for cutting or reducing diner and/or sleeper service? The ideal solution is to do everything without cutting anything. But it's not much of a stretch to think that's not an option. So what's more important?

 

[Lonestar648]

Changing the time of the trains is next to impossible with companies like UP. UP has done everything possible to prevent the SL from becoming a daily TE CHI/LAX. Only lots more ransom money and even then they may not agree, The Host RR would be happy to be rid of passenger rail, so if LD is ever cut, the hosts will never allow it to return. Cutting the LD trains to be only Coach would definitely reduce the number of travelers, those who go end to end on their trip in the sleeper, and those who mix day Coach and night Sleeper, because they can not tolerate sitting up all night. If you cut out all vacation traveling on Amtrak and focus just on the millennial business travel or non vacation travel , the LD format doesn't fit.

 

[AmtrakLKL]

The Viewliner II sleepers should be arriving early 2019,

Um, no.

 

[jis]

The Viewliner II sleepers should be arriving early 2019,

Um, no.

Is there any estimate or expectation at all at this point? Or is it now purely an "as and when we can" affair? How's the coddling of CAF coming along?

 

[Lonestar648]

To me the question is what is being deliver this month from CAF, if anything.

 

[cpotisch]

To me the question is what is being deliver this month from CAF, if anything.

CAF delivered three diners a couple weeks ago, which is more than any previous month (past deliveries were almost always two cars). There are six diners currently left to be delivered, so if CAF averages two a month, all the diners could be in Amtrak's hands by the end of July. Then, if CAF takes a two month hiatus as they switch over to construction of the bag-dorms, the first of those would be delivered around October. There are 10 of those, so at a rate of two cars a month, bag-dorm deliveries would be finished around March.

Then if they take another month or two to switch over to the sleepers, we could very well the sleepers in the first half of 2019. That's obviously a lot of speculation, but it doesn't seem implausible.

 

[Ryan]

Except for the part where the person that works for Amtrak said that it was.

 

[OBS]

Per Amtrak corporate personnel, the completion of delivery for Viewliner sleepers is the summer of 2020....

 

[cpotisch]

Per Amtrak corporate personnel, the completion of delivery for Viewliner sleepers is the summer of 2020....

Obviously completion will take MUCH longer, but to see the first of the sleepers...

 

[Blackwolf]

The answer to your question regarding the Starlight is a negative. I would not support that, because it would simply mean shoving the burden to another community that has service. Just because Chico, Redding, and Dunsmiur have awful calling times does not mean the answer should be a coin-toss. As others have stated, the answer is having more frequencies to serve the stops. I believe there is more than enough ridership already, with a large amount of growth potential, to provide two more round-trip services between Redding and Sacramento with stops along the route in Red Bluff, Chico, Live Oak, and Yuba City/Marysville. Keep the Starlight on its current schedule (and make sure the darn train runs well-maintained and on time!)

That's what I meant by "otherwise redesigned". If the result was better timed and more frequent trains, would it be a good trade for cutting or reducing diner and/or sleeper service? The ideal solution is to do everything without cutting anything. But it's not much of a stretch to think that's not an option. So what's more important?

The loss of diners and/or sleepers has no bearing on this particular scenario, though. Any additional frequencies, outside of a second Starlight running opposite the current schedule, would be Amtrak in name only. I foresee the reasonably realistic possibility of California outright divorcing Amtrak from the CalTrans routes at some point in the future, especially if the National Network is dramatically cut back. There is not a whole lot outside of networking that keep the California routes in the Amtrak family; any additional trains or frequencies under 750 miles would be creations of Sacramento and not Washington DC.

There is little to no correlation. If anything, the only correlation would be that additional State trains on the same route would actually strengthen the LD product and add revenue to the Sleeper service (which in likelihood would add revenue to Diners as well.) However, reducing and/or eliminating Sleeper/Diners would not harm or impact short-distance corridors in the slightest.

 

[cpotisch]

Aren't the state trains just funded by CalTrans, but equipment is bought and operated by Amtrak?

 

[jis]

Aren't the state trains just funded by CalTrans, but equipment is bought and operated by Amtrak?

Equipment is bought by CalTrans, not Amtrak. At least the new locomotives and cars are owned by CalTrans, not Amtrak. Amtrak currently holds the operating contract. That may or may not last going forward.

 

[niemi24s]

This may be a real dumb question, but here it is.

After 1 June 2018 if the CL has a SSL (in addition to the "private café or lounge car" for the sleeper passengers") will the snack bar located downstairs in the SSL have a menu like this one... https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/national/National-CafeCar-Menu-Amtrak-0617.pdf ...with hot breakfast and lunch/dinner items?

 

[tricia]

This may be a real dumb question, but here it is.

After 1 June 2018 if the CL has a SSL (in addition to the "private café or lounge car" for the sleeper passengers") will the snack bar located downstairs in the SSL have a menu like this one... https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/national/National-CafeCar-Menu-Amtrak-0617.pdf ...with hot breakfast and lunch/dinner items?

No stupid questions, only stupid answers. But your link doesn't work.

 

[niemi24s]

Hmmm. It's what I get with a Google search for "Amtrak National Cafe Car Menu", or this: https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/national/National-CafeCar-Menu-Amtrak-0617.pdf Looks like I just messed up posting the link. This one works now.

 

[jis]

We will know soon enough. Afterall 1 June is now less than a month away

 

[niemi24s]

My reason for asking was if this "café or lounge car" is indeed private and for sole use of sleeping car passengers (as stated by Amtrak) then it seems like the only place left for coach passengers to get something to eat is a SSL on the CL - and I don't even know if the current CL has a SSL in its consist.

But I'd think Amtrak would have to provide a place for coach pax to get food. Maybe.