Amtrak's Pioneer

[Bane]

I was looking at how the new Amtrak Bill requires an investigation into the old Pioneer path from Denver to Seattle. I live in Fort Collins, it is between Cheyenne and Denver. The old Pioneer stopped in Greeley, which is 45 minutes directly to the east of Fort Collins. Now if went down the old Colorado and Southern Tracks (now BNSF). The Pioneer could serve Fort Collins (home of CSU), Boulder (home of CU) or take the UP tracks from Fort Collins to Longmont making a more direct route to Denver. There is one major problem:

Fort Collins BNSF line goes directly through town, and that includes down Mason Street which as you can imagine a drastic speed reduction through town, although this might be slower, it would be stopping by at least 2 more major cities in Colorado then on its prior route.

Any thoughts on this or the train in general?

 

[the_traveler]

I hope the Pioneer will come back someday. But the street running in Fort Collins I think would return it to the original routing through Greeley.

I have only down a street running once - and that was a steam excursion thru Erie, PA on NS track. Amtrak's route thru Erie is on (IIRC) CSX track that has no street running.

 

[trainfan]

I was looking at how the new Amtrak Bill requires an investigation into the old Pioneer path from Denver to Seattle. I live in Fort Collins, it is between Cheyenne and Denver. The old Pioneer stopped in Greeley, which is 45 minutes directly to the east of Fort Collins. Now if went down the old Colorado and Southern Tracks (now BNSF). The Pioneer could serve Fort Collins (home of CSU), Boulder (home of CU) or take the UP tracks from Fort Collins to Longmont making a more direct route to Denver. There is one major problem:

Fort Collins BNSF line goes directly through town, and that includes down Mason Street which as you can imagine a drastic speed reduction through town, although this might be slower, it would be stopping by at least 2 more major cities in Colorado then on its prior route.

Any thoughts on this or the train in general?

When did the old Pioneer stop running?

Trainfan

 

[PRR 60]

When did the old Pioneer stop running?
Trainfan

The last trip was in 1997.

 

[Skeena_PG]

Perhaps if/when the Pioneer is restored, instead of just terminating in SEA, extend it to VAC with the added purpose of providing an overnight service along the Cascades corridor. It would leave PDX eastbound in the AM and arrive PDX westbound in the late PM.

 

[AlanB]

Perhaps if/when the Pioneer is restored, instead of just terminating in SEA, extend it to VAC with the added purpose of providing an overnight service along the Cascades corridor. It would leave PDX eastbound in the AM and arrive PDX westbound in the late PM.

Amtrak is already not running a second Cascades frequency, even though everything else is ready to go, because Canadian Customes wants to charge Amtrak for clearing the passengers. Now you want a third train, with still more charges from Customes? :blink:

 

[PetalumaLoco]

I was looking at how the new Amtrak Bill requires an investigation into the old Pioneer path from Denver to Seattle. I live in Fort Collins, it is between Cheyenne and Denver. The old Pioneer stopped in Greeley, which is 45 minutes directly to the east of Fort Collins. Now if went down the old Colorado and Southern Tracks (now BNSF). The Pioneer could serve Fort Collins (home of CSU), Boulder (home of CU) or take the UP tracks from Fort Collins to Longmont making a more direct route to Denver. There is one major problem:

Fort Collins BNSF line goes directly through town, and that includes down Mason Street which as you can imagine a drastic speed reduction through town, although this might be slower, it would be stopping by at least 2 more major cities in Colorado then on its prior route.

Any thoughts on this or the train in general?

You mean running down this steet? Google Maps.

The Coast Starlight runs down a street in Oakland. How long is the run down Mason?

 

[Skeena_PG]

Perhaps if/when the Pioneer is restored, instead of just terminating in SEA, extend it to VAC with the added purpose of providing an overnight service along the Cascades corridor. It would leave PDX eastbound in the AM and arrive PDX westbound in the late PM.

Amtrak is already not running a second Cascades frequency, even though everything else is ready to go, because Canadian Customes wants to charge Amtrak for clearing the passengers. Now you want a third train, with still more charges from Customes? :blink:

Additional Customs charges would be out of the question if this were to be considered. Many Canadians are quite frankly p***ed that the federal government (not exactly a rail-friendly government, as the PM hails from Calgary, AB, aka HQ for Canadian oil/gas companies) is being unreasonable with the second Cascades run. :angry:

 

[wayman]

Additional Customs charges would be out of the question if this were to be considered. Many Canadians are quite frankly p***ed that the federal government (not exactly a rail-friendly government, as the PM hails from Calgary, AB, aka HQ for Canadian oil/gas companies) is being unreasonable with the second Cascades run. :angry:

Note also the parallel: PM Harper is from Calgary, AB, "the largest city and largest CSA in Canada without VIA service" (3rd largest city in Canada; 5th largest census metropolitan area in Canada). John McCain is from Phoenix, AZ, "the largest city in America without Amtrak service" (5th largest city in America). And neither one of them likes passenger rail. Go figure.

(Phoenix is part of the 13th largest Statistical Metropolitan Area in America, which does technically have rail service (Maricopa), even if it isn't particularly convenient to Phoenix; the largest SMA in America which is truly absolutely without rail service is Las Vegas, 30th largest.)

 

[jis]

Perhaps if/when the Pioneer is restored, instead of just terminating in SEA, extend it to VAC with the added purpose of providing an overnight service along the Cascades corridor. It would leave PDX eastbound in the AM and arrive PDX westbound in the late PM.

While there could be an overnight train along the Cascade Corridor if someone steps up to fund such, I have great difficulty visualizing an Amtrak core system LD cross country train originating and terminating in a Canadian City. Just won't happen. It will mean setting up a maintenance facility in VAC for the equipment, which is fundamentally different from anything that VIA uses, which I consider to be highly unlikely, when such a facility already exists in SEA. Just not cost effective at all. And all this leaving aside the minor problem of Canadian Customs' obduracy.

 

[Cascadia]

While there could be an overnight train along the Cascade Corridor if someone steps up to fund such, I have great difficulty visualizing an Amtrak core system LD cross country train originating and terminating in a Canadian City. Just won;t happen. It will mean setting up a maintenance facility in VAC for the equipment, which is fundamentally different from anything that VIA uses, which I consider to be highly unlikely, when such a facility already exists in SEA. Just not cost effective at all. And all this leaving aside the minor problem of Canadian Customs' obduracy.

Right now the 510 sits in Vancouver in the station slot for international passengers all day, and when they ever get things straightened out so the 517 makes it to Vancouver instead of Bellingham, it will sit in the station all night.

So if a third train were to serve Vancouver at all, they'd have to move it out of the way and park it somewhere else in the yard. I'm sure it could be done but it sounds like another headache. If they can't even figure out the customs end of it don't hold your breath while they figure out where to park an extra train.

 

[RailFanLNK]

Does anyone have any old timetables of the Pioneer? I would love to see what cities it served when it ran.

 

[JayPea]

I don't have a timetable for the Pioneer but I do have the next best thing: An old copy of Rail Ventures.

Here goes:

Salt Lake City

Ogden, UT

Pocatello, ID

Shoshone, ID

Boise, ID

Nampa. ID

Ontario, OR

Baker City, OR

LaGrande, OR

Pendleton, OR

Hinkle, OR (which is basically a large railroad yard in the middle of nowhere)

The Dalles, OR

Hood River, OR

Portland

and from there it followed the Coast Starlight route into Seattle.

This was as of 1990.

 

[MrFSS]

 

[Philzy]

Wow, I know I'm a young'n but that is just fascinating... It's so interesting to read the Carrier Notice "...The ICC has ordered this operation to continue untill March 31, 1979..." I've never seen anything like that, quite neat. Thank you for sharing that.

As a child i would hoard amtrak time tables, my mother still to this day has no idea why, but I came across a few when visiting home a few years ago and was instantly glued to them for a few hours. :lol:

 

[creddick]

When I rode the Pioneer in 1991, it split from the CZ in Denver and went up through Wyoming. It did not go to Salt Lake. We rode from Chicago to Seattle. Took the EB back to Chicago.

 

[jim692]

In summer 1985 I took the Pioneer from Salt Lake north thru Idaho & Portland to Seattle like the posted schedule here.

 

[saxman]

Just curious, but according to that timetable it looked like you had to change trains in Ogden. It was not thru car service from Chicago. Also neat to see it originated in Salt Lake City. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't later Amtrak run the California Zephyr, Pioneer, and Desert Wind as one train? Pioneer splitting off in Denver and Desert splitting in Salt Lake?

 

[Chris J.]

I was looking at how the new Amtrak Bill requires an investigation into the old Pioneer path from Denver to Seattle. I live in Fort Collins, it is between Cheyenne and Denver. The old Pioneer stopped in Greeley, which is 45 minutes directly to the east of Fort Collins. Now if went down the old Colorado and Southern Tracks (now BNSF). The Pioneer could serve Fort Collins (home of CSU), Boulder (home of CU) or take the UP tracks from Fort Collins to Longmont making a more direct route to Denver. There is one major problem:

Fort Collins BNSF line goes directly through town, and that includes down Mason Street which as you can imagine a drastic speed reduction through town, although this might be slower, it would be stopping by at least 2 more major cities in Colorado then on its prior route.

Any thoughts on this or the train in general?

Looking at google maps; run a train Cheyenne - Fort Collins - Denver. I'm not sure there's a demand for it, or if it's even possible with the tracks that exist, but i think that would mean that there would then only be one of the 48 contiguous states without an Amtrak service.

 

[heavesrock]

How About Denver-Cheyenne-Casper-Billings?

 

[creddick]

Just curious, but according to that timetable it looked like you had to change trains in Ogden. It was not thru car service from Chicago. Also neat to see it originated in Salt Lake City. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't later Amtrak run the California Zephyr, Pioneer, and Desert Wind as one train? Pioneer splitting off in Denver and Desert splitting in Salt Lake?

That was the case in 1991 when I rode the Pioneer to Seattle.

 

[Chris J.]

Wow, I know I'm a young'n but that is just fascinating... It's so interesting to read the Carrier Notice "...The ICC has ordered this operation to continue untill March 31, 1979..." I've never seen anything like that, quite neat. Thank you for sharing that.

As a child i would hoard amtrak time tables, my mother still to this day has no idea why, but I came across a few when visiting home a few years ago and was instantly glued to them for a few hours. :lol:

I was interested to see the distances in Km there - I thought that the US only really used miles.

 

[AlanB]

Wow, I know I'm a young'n but that is just fascinating... It's so interesting to read the Carrier Notice "...The ICC has ordered this operation to continue untill March 31, 1979..." I've never seen anything like that, quite neat. Thank you for sharing that.

As a child i would hoard amtrak time tables, my mother still to this day has no idea why, but I came across a few when visiting home a few years ago and was instantly glued to them for a few hours. :lol:

I was interested to see the distances in Km there - I thought that the US only really used miles.

Most likely that TT was put out during the time period where the US was going to go Metric. Many things during that time were done with both systems for several years, until we decided that it was just too hard to convert.

 

[henryj]

Now if we can add the Desert Wind and the Pioneer to the Zephyr and make them all daily... that would be one heck of a train through Illinois and Iowa!

And Utah!

It would, but that would also be the wrong thing to do. A much better idea would be to leave the CZ alone and run a combined DW & Pioneer at a different time so as to provide a second frequency to the route between SLC & Chicago.

As much as a second daily frequency on a major long-distance line would be awesome, if equipment is an issue, what about doing a combined DW and Pioneer meeting up in SLC? In other words, run from Washington/Oregon through Idaho and down into SLC, continuing down through St. George, Vegas, and Los Angeles (basically, providing a second route between L.A. and the PNW, only going a bit inland instead of following the coast)?

If we do get enough equipment to start a separate DW and Pioneer service, I would vote for the Pioneer to run east through Wyoming and then south through Colorado into New Mexico to provide connectivity to those unserved communities. Once we get the network linked up, then we can look at more frequencies.

Of course, you could also argue the other way--do something limited but do it well: run two daily frequencies along the CZ's route and attract the ridership, after which we can expand to new territories. Perhaps that strategy may be more successful in the long run.

If you had to choose between status quo (existing routes and once-daily [at most] frequencies) or dropping one of Amtrak's existing routes and providing a second daily frequency along it (or making the SL daily), what would you pick and which route, if applicable, would you drop and which one would you add the frequency to?

Hey that would be great. We would then have a train that combined the former City of St. Louis, Portland Rose, Colorado Eagle, City of Portland all into one train. You could route it from Chicago to KC(St. Louis people could connect on the Mules) and La Junta on the BNSF tacked onto the SWC up the front range to Colorado Springs and Denver and north to Wyoming and accross on the UP to Ogden then up to Portland. You could have cars that split off at Pocatello for Yellowstone on the Yellowstone Special(or a thruway bus). If you tacked onto the back of the SWC you could be in Denver by say 2:00PM. That would put you into Pocatello the next morning early for the connection to Yellowstone and Sun Valley and into Portland that evening. Now if we could only get that train from Texas to Colorado going to connect with all this. Here is the schedule. All you have to do is figure how to get up the joint line between all those coal trains.

PIONEER

Pioneer Pioneer

7:00 AM lv PORTLAND(PT) arr 8:30 PM

11:00 PM arr POCATELLO lv 6:15 AM

11:15 PM lv POCATELLO arr 6:00 AM

2:15 AM arr OGDEN lv 3:00 AM

2:45 AM lv OGDEN arr 2:30 AM

11:30 AM arr CHEYENNE(BOWIE) lv 4:20 PM

11:35 AM lv CHEYENNE(BOWIE) arr 4:15 PM

1:30 PM arr DENVER lv 2:30 PM

3:15 PM lv DENVER arr 1:15 PM

5:00 PM arr COLORADO SPRINGS lv 11:45 AM

5:15 PM lv COLORADO SPRINGS arr 11:30 AM

6:15 PM arr PUEBLO lv 10:30 AM

6:30 PM lv PUEBLO arr 10:15 AM

8:00 PM arr LAJUNTA lv 8:45 AM

8:23 PM lv LAJUNTA(MT) arr 8:15 AM

7:25 AM arr KANSAS CITY lv 10:55 PM

7:45 AM lv KANSAS CITY arr 10:11 PM

3:20 PM arr CHICAGO(CT) lv 3:15 PM

 

[Navy 118]

things are looking up! I remember riding the CZ back in the late 90's before the death of the desert wind and pioneer, and I believe we had all three train sets within our consist. Two diners, three lounge cars. The PA system was alive with the various announcements from the various train crews. Boy was she a big train!