best ways for Amtrak to cut its operating losses?

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't think the customers wanted to take their shoes off, go through nudie scanners, or have the TSA rifle through their luggage. Just for a few examples.
None of these really have anything to do with the airlines, though.
Tell it to anyone who has to take a flight. I don't really think the airlines got into this situation by choice at all, I think they staggered into the current situation like drunks stumbling through dark streets. If it had been their choice, they wouldn't have nearly all gone bankrupt repeatedly.

I believe one should never underestimate the degree to which history is driven by people who don't know what they're doing flailing about incompetently to the best of their abilities. :)
 
On the matter of level of service, rest assured that the airlines did not get this way because airlines drove things here in spite of what the customers wanted.
That's entirely arguable, and I don't believe it.

The situation with airlines is complicated due to a regulated long-distance duopoly being replaced with so-called "deregulation", below-cost "teaser" services, regional monopolies, pricing on hub slots, the convoluted system of airport financing, the completely non-market-based history of airport security, etc.

I don't think the customers wanted to take their shoes off, go through nudie scanners, or have the TSA rifle through their luggage. Just for a few examples.

I should add that businesses are well known for being stupid about what will improve or decrease their revenues. Bars and restaurants in NY (same is true in California, probably other states) thought that they would lose money if smoking was banned -- almost all of them saw sales rise.
IMHO I was not talking about TSA at all. That is a separate issue. I was talking of services provided by airlines for the price one pays for the ticket minus the TSA fee. You get the special TSA service for the compulsory fee you pay, and that is orthogonal to the rest of the service.

Of course feel absolutely free to believe whatever you like. Just don't expect everyone else to believe the same thing.

Airlines, like any other business, including Amtrak, operate in the environment that they are given to operate in. All that we can determine without going into random theoretical discussions about hypothetical free markets, is how they are doing given the environment they find themselves in. Of late the airlines appear to be doing better than they have done in a long time, and all that is mostly by running a hard nosed business, increasing load factors, slashing marginal destinations, right sizing aircrafts for the traffic, replacing fuel inefficient older planes by more fuel efficient newer ones, and stuffing as many people as they can get away with into the floor space available on the planes.

All of that has nothing to do with TSA, but has everything to do with various other things that people complain about, and yet when choosing a flight choose the lowest fare available, like they mostly always done. So on the whole I think regarding the point I was making, TSA is just a red herring in the core discussion about what has happened to airline services. Hey I can believe something quite fervently too, and when I am making a point I get to make it based on my belief, right? ;)
 
At the same time, I cut a few features here and there again looking for that tipping point.
Amtrak should already realize that cutting china is a mistake. Bring back china and the price Amtrak can charge will go up meaningfully. It's not just the "quality", it's the ability to run environmental-themed advertising.
So the Capitol Limited can charge more than the Lake Shore Limited because it uses china? Sorry but I'm not buying that.

I am FOR china in the dining car.. I think it looks classy, and it makes sense environment wise. But I don't think anyone is making a decision to ride amtrak or not based on china in the dining car. And I'm pretty sure a vast majority of Amtrak passengers would rather pay less for the same food on plastic if it came down to that.
 
Neroden

Absolutely not. *Downgrading* popular amenities is something you have to be very careful with, though, lest you sink in reputational class.

Example I know: Home Depot. Amenity: well-informed employees who could find things for you and give you reasonably competent advice regarding what to buy. Home Depot expanded like gangbusters until a "cost cutting" CEO decided that it didn't need to have employees who knew anything about the products, fired all the experienced employees and hired minimum-wage untrained employees, without training them.. Lowes promptly ate their lunch.
I agree that was a stupid move, and I agree with you completely about its incompetency. There are two difference that make Amtrak's situation and Home Depot's totally different. First of all, Home Depot was a profitable organization with a solid and (at the time) still hungry competitor on their tail. Secondly, people have always seen Amtrak as basically unluxurious and institutional. Compared to plane services? Certainly better.

But that's the thing, see. Amtrak has no real competitors. Very few people who ride Amtrak long distance are people who seriously considered flying for that particular journey. They don't like flying, wanted to take the train for the hell of it, or are going to a place where flying is really not an option to begin with. Few people who cross shop long distance Greyhound with Amtrak actually ride the dog if the train gets them there conveniently for a similar price.

Neroden:

Amtrak should already realize that cutting china is a mistake. Bring back china and the price Amtrak can charge will go up meaningfully. It's not just the "quality", it's the ability to run environmental-themed advertising.


I don't disagree on this particular issue, although I really would like to know the details of a good CBA. If it really costs an additional $550,000 a year per staffed position (and I'm not implying that a particular person gets $550,000), it may actually cost more. I don't know. I'd want to see the numbers.

I assure you that if Amtrak starts to see substantially worse financial performance from the result of ANY of these changes, the changes will be reversed.
But it'll be, in some sense, too late. Home Depot reversed its change, but it didn't change the reputation it had developed, and Lowes now has a loyal base of customers due to it. Reputational losses are something you mess with AT YOUR PERIL, because the changes are *durable*. Amtrak actually benefitted from the airlines burning their reputations in several different ways -- even though they've reversed some of those changes since then, the airlines get no credit for the reversal. Amtrak management should recognize this.
I don't recognize the reversal on Home Depot, and frankly, what ultimately happened is Lowe's followed Home Depots lead. Because both stores suck, with very limited staffing that doesn't seem to know which end of a hammer to apply to what end of what object, although some of them seem so dumb I think either they or their parents occasionally apply/applied the striking edge of a hammer to their own cranium.

On the matter of level of service, rest assured that the airlines did not get this way because airlines drove things here in spite of what the customers wanted.
That's entirely arguable, and I don't believe it.

The situation with airlines is complicated due to a regulated long-distance duopoly being replaced with so-called "deregulation", below-cost "teaser" services, regional monopolies, pricing on hub slots, the convoluted system of airport financing, the completely non-market-based history of airport security, etc.
No, Jishnu is absolutely correct. Continental spent a lot of time positioning their slightly premium service with meals on all flights that should have them as a major marketing point. End result? It was ultimately concluded that passengers did not care to pay the extra fare in order to get a meal, and Continental became the last major carrier to drop them on shorter domestic flights.

Oh, everybody wants the good life, its true. They would love to be pampered in big overstuffed recliners that have pull down full sleeping beds, or even have their own sleeping compartments on airplanes, where they are served full course gourmet meals. They'd love that. They just don't want to pay for it. Flights are almost always purchased on the basis of price. People would rather have a lower price than fare flexibility. They'd rather have a lower price then a big seat. They'd rather have a lower price then food service. They have shown this to be true. Again and again and again.

I don't understand it myself. I'm a low stress kind of guy- I've purchased sleeper service on some trips and a not inconsiderable factor was simply not wanting to worry about finding a seat with together with my wife, or having trouble boarding, or being seated near children- which make my skin crawl. I drive a Mercedes for many reasons, but not the least of them is dealership service where I drive in there, hand them my keys, sign a paper, pick up a key to a loaner Mercedes, and drive away. I'd rather pay more money for the car and a lot more money to repair it then worry about figuring out how to get around while my car is in the shop.

And I take slow meandering trips on Amtrak in sleeper because I generally don't worry much about anything. I get there late, I get there late. No big deal. I get fed, I keep sleeping in my bed until we get there, if I misconnect Amtrak puts me up in a hotel and puts me out on the next available train, usually in sleeper, where I continue to sleep in a bed and eat Amtrak-provided meals. And I am happy to pay big bucks for that, despite the fact that I don't really have all that much money. I mean, I'm not poor or anything, and I do have a successful business, but I am far from wealthy. I just think the biggest most valuable luxury is the elimination of all aggravation and worry, and I am willing to pay for it big time.

I get aggravated enough running my own business, managing my suppliers, employees, supply chain, taxes, licenses, and all that other stuff that I don't have the energy to be aggravated by anything else.

But I can see the trends and watch other peoples behavior. They don't seem to agree with me. They'd rather be aggravated by small stupid stuff then pay money. That's just the way it is.
 
Well put GML. I agree with your position. Indeed when I travel by Amtrak they are hardly ever for an itinerary for which I would consider air travel in the first place, for whatever reason. OTOH, when I have to take air for whatever reason, Amtrak is never in the running anyway. Usually it is that cut and dried, at least in my case.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've generally thought Boardman has done an excellent job. But this feels like "knuckling under to Mica" -- who's not even staying around! -- and I don't see where it leads to a good outcome. Knuckling under to a Congressman who is staying in a powerful position would be another matter!
I have not read that Congressman Mica is leaving the House. There has been a wave of long time Congressmen from both parties not running for re-election and retiring this year, but AFAIK, Mica is not among them. The political reality is that the House is very likely to stay under Republican control, perhaps with a narrowed margin. With the Amtrak re-authorization and the Transportation funding acts both up for up for renewal this year, especially during what will be a bitterly fought election year, Boardman and Amtrak have a narrow line to walk to try to achieve the best long term outcome for Amtrak.
 
At risk of side-tracking this thread, one step to reduce losses is to keep a close eye on employees who handle money and carefully check the accounts. I expect the agent was caught because the E-Vouchers and ticket & cash revenues did not add up.

From the case files of the Amtrak Office of Inspector General:

TICKET AGENT USES E-VOUCHERS TO STEAL MONEY
FEBRUARY 27, 2014
CASE OIG-I-2014-503

OI found that a ticket agent was improperly using E-Vouchers to steal money from Amtrak. An E-Voucher is automatically created for a ticketed passenger when the passenger fails to board their train. Additionally, if a passenger changes their mind about their travel after purchasing a ticket, they can turn in their E-Ticket for an E-Voucher. A ticket agent in Amtrak’s Central Division accessed outstanding E-Vouchers and used these E-Vouchers for passengers who were purchasing their tickets with cash. The ticket agent would then pocket the cash provided by the customer for their ticket. The ticket agent admitted the theft and was terminated. The theft was estimated at $1500.
 
Why isn't this loser in jail? A criminal by any other name is a criminal? This sounds like a Felony and its Federal which means hard time when convicted!
 
I wonder how much savings would be realized by implementing RCM system wide compared to the savings from eliminating chocolate squares. Of course, one steps on powerful toes that have a vested interest in the status quo and the other doesn't. Just a thought.
I agree. The whole saga of RCM outside of NEC is one huge shameful chapter in Amtrak's history, and a testimony to how a weakly positioned management can miss out on a huge opportunity. I have never quite understood what exactly happened and why it could not be deployed even for anything beyond Acelas. Anybody have any informed insight (as opposed to baseless speculation - I can generate plenty of that myself :) ) into that?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I have read this thread with particular interest all day. I am a student at an university that offers a four year Business Management degree and I have a senior project in the near future. My topic is Amtrak as a business. The thesis is How to Increase Revenue in Order to Decrease the Dependency on Government Subsidies. I had direct contact with Amtrak to do a co-op with the metrics analysts in the operations department. I see some very interesting ideas here and I have a lot to consider. I would like to be better educated on the topic before going to corporate headquarters and sound foolish and naïve. Keep the ideas flowing!
 
I agree. The whole saga of RCM outside of NEC is one huge shameful chapter in Amtrak's history, and a testimony to how a weakly positioned management can miss out on a huge opportunity. I have never quite understood what exactly happened and why it could not be deployed even for anything beyond Acelas. Anybody have any informed insight (as opposed to baseless speculation - I can generate plenty of that myself :) ) into that?
Given the equipment problems in recent months, especially for the P-42s, it is clear that Amtrak needs to focus on addressing maintenance and reliability. Of course, adequate funding for maintenance, spare part stocks, overhauling equipment more frequently is a major constraint. With the states now paying more in subsidies and capital charges, the state DOTs may pressure Amtrak to either improve reliability or else.
If there is strong institutional resistance to changing the way maintenance is done on existing equipment, may be easier to implement RCM on entirely new equipment. Will Amtrak apply RCM to the ACS-64s? With Siemens' support and providing the maintenance training, there is the opportunity to implement new procedures for the the ACS-64s. Then if Amtrak buys Siemens diesels in a series of orders, should be easier to carry RCM over to the new diesels.
 
Why isn't this loser in jail? A criminal by any other name is a criminal? This sounds like a Felony and its Federal which means hard time when convicted!
The usual scenario:

The employee walks into a room where his supervisor and a rep from the OI office is. The lay out the evidence and ask the question. "Do you want us to prosecute or do you want to resign now?"
 
Back to the initial question of this thread: Best ways for Amtrak to cut its operating losses?

Simple answer is to fold up its operations and cease to exist. IMHO worst answer is to nickel and dime customers until they cease to exist.
 
Best way to decrease per passenger loss?
Increase Capacity! Sure, your overall costs go up, but your ridership goes up much further!

1. Lengthen trains! The SW Chief for one could do with an expanded consist.
2. Additional routes which share terminals with existing ones: Routes like the North Coast Limited.

3. Short turns on existing routes: DC to Atlanta, Chicago to Minneapolis, etc
4. Additional frequencies of some trains, Silver Service, Coast Starlight and NY-Chicago seem to be where this would be best. Also. Daily service on the remaining Triweekly runs.
5. Add branches to trains. Desert Wind, National Limited or Cardinal to Kansas City/STL come to mind.
 
Simple answer is to fold up its operations and cease to exist.
That may be the most simple, but it's nowhere near the best.
Ironically, it is possible that Amtrak currently does not have enough money to cease operations and meet all consequent legal obligations either.
 
But that's the thing, see. Amtrak has no real competitors. Very few people who ride Amtrak long distance are people who seriously considered flying for that particular journey. They don't like flying, wanted to take the train for the hell of it, or are going to a place where flying is really not an option to begin with. Few people who cross shop long distance Greyhound with Amtrak actually ride the dog if the train gets them there conveniently for a similar price.
You could be right. On the other hand, Ed Ellis at Iowa Pacific genuinely believes that the market is going to shift within the next ten years to the point where there will be real private sector competition in passenger train service. He may be wildly optimistic.... but All Aboard Florida seems to be thinking the same way. Having a good reputation is what lets an organization survive such market shifts.



Amtrak should already realize that cutting china is a mistake. Bring back china and the price Amtrak can charge will go up meaningfully. It's not just the "quality", it's the ability to run environmental-themed advertising.
I don't disagree on this particular issue, although I really would like to know the details of a good CBA. If it really costs an additional $550,000 a year per staffed position (and I'm not implying that a particular person gets $550,000), it may actually cost more. I don't know. I'd want to see the numbers.
I do wonder if there's some way to improve efficiency while using china. I'm not sure how they actually handle it. I know in the old days dishes were actually washed on board. Washing dishes on board sounds... problematic, what with heating the water, HAVING the water, etc. One of the rules of thumb is to do what you can offboard, and I wonder if the china could be washed between trips at the commissary.

I don't recognize the reversal on Home Depot, and frankly, what ultimately happened is Lowe's followed Home Depots lead. Because both stores suck, with very limited staffing that doesn't seem to know which end of a hammer to apply to what end of what object, although some of them seem so dumb I think either they or their parents occasionally apply/applied the striking edge of a hammer to their own cranium.
Well, I still get decent advice at Lowes. And Home Depot *claimed* to have reversed the change, though I never went back to check.... anyway, your experience may vary.



No, Jishnu is absolutely correct. Continental spent a lot of time positioning their slightly premium service with meals on all flights that should have them as a major marketing point. End result? It was ultimately concluded that passengers did not care to pay the extra fare in order to get a meal, and Continental became the last major carrier to drop them on shorter domestic flights.
Ah, but now comes the question: which flights *should* have meals? We're now arguing not about whether customers want amenities, but which amenities they care about! Which means I think we aren't that far off in our opinions.

I tend to be the "good life" type -- I actually have stress-related illnesses, and I have to do what I can to avoid exacerbating them -- and I've got money to spare. Back when I flew, I only needed a snack for flights lasting over 2 hours.... and a meal only for flights which are 6 hours plus, which doesn't happen much domestically. The snacks are still provided on most flights, if I'm not mistaken... and the meals are still provided on most overseas flights, if I'm not mistaken.

Further comments about "slightly premium", and the problem with it, later.

(Regarding the preference for lower price over higher quality)

I don't understand it myself. I'm a low stress kind of guy- I've purchased sleeper service on some trips and a not inconsiderable factor was simply not wanting to worry about finding a seat with together with my wife, or having trouble boarding, or being seated near children- which make my skin crawl. I drive a Mercedes for many reasons, but not the least of them is dealership service where I drive in there, hand them my keys, sign a paper, pick up a key to a loaner Mercedes, and drive away. I'd rather pay more money for the car and a lot more money to repair it then worry about figuring out how to get around while my car is in the shop.
And I drive a Tesla Model S... partly so that I don't have to bother with going to the gas station, which was continuous aggravation for me!
Part of it is simply that far more Americans are poor now, and the middle class is poorer than it used to be! This is an unfortunate economic trend dating from the late 1970s or early 1980s; real median income hasn't budged since then, and has actually been going down recently. The poorer you are, the less willing you are to pay money for, well, anything. I'm in a funny position because my friends have all been subject to these same economic trends, but I got lucky. So I see it happening and I know why, and it doesn't apply to me personally.

I get aggravated enough running my own business, managing my suppliers, employees, supply chain, taxes, licenses, and all that other stuff that I don't have the energy to be aggravated by anything else.

But I can see the trends and watch other peoples behavior. They don't seem to agree with me. They'd rather be aggravated by small stupid stuff then pay money. That's just the way it is.
That's because you have gobs of money compared to most of them. As do I. It's sobering to look at the actual income percentiles in the US, and even more disturbing, the net wealth percentiles, when you can find them. (Personal debt is a huge issue, so the income percentiles hide some of the changes.)
The thing is, this is what's known as a "segmented market" (as I'm sure you know). Amtrak can get both segments if Amtrak is careful, and the well-to-do segment is a good place to make a profit; you won't make huge volume, but there's enough volume to support running sleepers to existing trains. Trying to provide a half-and-half service targeted somewhere between these two segments, by contrast, gets few results, because the market is bifurcating, with the middle segment missing entirely. This is the problem with "slightly premium": it targets a nonexistent middle market.

Remember: in retail, the chains which crashed and burned first from the 1980s to the present day were the middlebrow chains. The bottom of the market survived, the top of the market survived, the middle fell out. This has happened in a lot of different specialized retail situations. The middle still exists in restaurants, for whatever reason (I'm actually curious why restaurants have defied the trend). Looking back at retail, one interesting thing is that the rise of the Internet has made *custom work* much more affordable, so the high-end for clothing and other things which don't have big economies of scale is switching back to custom-made, as it was before the 1950s. In airlines, the high end went off into the stratosphere and is often still unaffordable by even the rather-wealthy. (This is partly TSA-related, as the expenses necessary to avoid them are substantial.)

For industries with substantial economies of scale, the high end may be too small to support the scale necessary. Amtrak is lucky in being able to attach sleepers to trains which are *already running*; it would probably never make sense to run an all-sleeper train these days.

Dining cars are another matter and are very complicated to try to account for. Dining cars on long trips are like meals on overseas flights. If you remove the dining cars, you lose most of the through traffic over a certain number of hours, sleeper *or* coach, because people start demanding meal stops. (Meal stops: something Greyhound still does!) And then you're sacrificing runtime. Or you can just abandon the through traffic, but it's hard to predict what your revenue loss will be if you do that, because of network effects; probably larger than you expect.

The number of trips I haven't taken solely because they require an overnight hotel stay in midtown Manhattan, which I don't really want to do... anyway.

It seems like cafe cars will generally be tolerated for two meals, but not three, and Amtrak's currently don't provide decent breakfast. I am very curious as to how "buffet car" service worked in the past, since most people, even at the high end, will be OK with buffets these days. I suspect that it resulted in inefficient table usage and would therefore require additional lounge cars -- which might actually be the way to go, if staffing is a lot more expensive than rolling stock.

One of the things which frustrates me most is this: with modern technology, it is quite feasible to have everyone order their meals in advance, have them prepared offboard, and then delivered at the next station and served piping hot on the train. *If the trains run on time*. There are a bunch of potentially highly efficient ways of doing things like this, which might still satisfy even the high-end customers, which can't be done simply because the trains do *not* run on time.

The problem of running the trains on time has been a problem for over 40 years now. Someone should fix it. (However, even Mussolini didn't make the trains run on time -- that's just a myth, it turns out.)

I guess that's still the key for every market. Run the trains on time at a driving-competitive speed, and operating losses will shrink. Run the trains slowly and late and operating losses will increase.

Everything else is tinkering around the edges.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You could be right. On the other hand, Ed Ellis at Iowa Pacific genuinely believes that the market is going to shift within the next ten years to the point where there will be real private sector competition in passenger train service. He may be wildly optimistic.... but All Aboard Florida seems to be thinking the same way. Having a good reputation is what lets an organization survive such market shifts.

First a comment about airlines- irrespective of service, I don't use them, unless some emergency comes up. I determined some years ago that I'd rather have an acid enema then fly, so my understanding of the airline industry in general has to do with my last flight, which happened in the very early 2000s, I think 2002 or 2003.

It is possible that Ed Ellis will create some reasonable private rail operations. But up to this point, all of Iowa Pacifics operations have been limited service, generally seasonal tourist trains. When he starts running multi-run corridors and long distance trains year round and daily we can talk about Iowa Pacific. AAF is a different story, of course, but I have long suspected that it is primarily a real estate land grab- the very thing that created the Florida East Coast Railroad to begin with. If it isn't, and they run profitable corridor service in Florida, we can discuss that further.

But until that time, I really suspect trains can run profitably, but not profitably enough to cover capital costs, which will remain a government paid for concept. I do not think that Iowa Pacific could, for instance, buy the old Fort Wayne mainline, pay for adequate upgrades to the Harrisburg-Pittsburg NS line, acquire appropriate rolling stock and locomotives, and run a resurrected Broadway Limited or something vaguely like it, with enough profit to pay off all that capital investment in a timely enough fashion that I wouldn't be, as a shareholder, trying to smash Ed Ellis's head in with a proxy fight.

And I drive a Tesla Model S... partly so that I don't have to bother with going to the gas station, which was continuous aggravation for me!
Part of it is simply that far more Americans are poor now, and the middle class is poorer than it used to be! This is an unfortunate economic trend dating from the late 1970s or early 1980s; real median income hasn't budged since then, and has actually been going down recently. The poorer you are, the less willing you are to pay money for, well, anything. I'm in a funny position because my friends have all been subject to these same economic trends, but I got lucky. So I see it happening and I know why, and it doesn't apply to me personally.
Heh, funny you should mention that. I've been thinking of a Tesla Model S, myself. Although its not in my budget, I've thought about toying around with the idea as a company car. I love the car, but I've been driving Mercedes my whole life, and this is the second gas model I've owned (the rest have been diesels, running back to where I bought a 25 year old swisscheese one for less money than a service costs me now) and I don't like the gas model. Next car will be diesel or electric, I'm fairly certain.

Thats one of the unfortunate things with being a self-made man, actually. You seem to be aware of the reality, and so am I, but the honest to god truth is that we are primarily lucky. Sure, I'm a good manager. Sure, I have good business sense. Sure I tapped into a particular market that worked really well for me. And without a lot of the skills I have, I would not have been able to make it. But at the end of the day, there are a lot of skilled businessmen out there who don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of- and most of the difference between me and them is luck.

And most of the world's been fresh out of luck, partially because most of the higher up businessmen think that the reason they make so much money is they worked hard, and the reason all the schlubs below them don't make money is they don't work hard. Its hogwash- most people really do want to work hard and be rewarded for it. But the feeling of being rewarded for their effort was lost when the whole union-labor fight concept started going south, and the whole redundancy elimination stuff went around. How many managers say to their employee, who did great work for them, "Gee, you did a really good job. You helped me, let me buy you lunch."

But anyway, we're not discussing the philosophies that have generally run this country onto the rocks right now, and I digress.

That's because you have gobs of money compared to most of them. As do I. It's sobering to look at the actual income percentiles in the US, and even more disturbing, the net wealth percentiles, when you can find them. (Personal debt is a huge issue, so the income percentiles hide some of the changes.)
Isn't it really telling that my knee-jerk reaction to that statement is "no I don't". Yes I do. I don't have a lot of cash-flow on my personal books, but that is by choice. I could easily choose to redirect some of my profits out of the company and into my pocket, but I rarely take more than my (quite small) salary- I redirect my dividends into buying my company back from my investors. And that isn't an option for most people, of course. And I admit that even my so-called quite small salary is above the national average- although probably not above the New Jersey average.

The thing is, this is what's known as a "segmented market" (as I'm sure you know). Amtrak can get both segments if Amtrak is careful, and the well-to-do segment is a good place to make a profit; you won't make huge volume, but there's enough volume to support running sleepers to existing trains. Trying to provide a half-and-half service targeted somewhere between these two segments, by contrast, gets few results, because the market is bifurcating, with the middle segment missing entirely. This is the problem with "slightly premium": it targets a nonexistent middle market.
I would call Amtrak sleeper service fairly premium. It is a lot more premium than coach, certainly, and unless you are super wealthy and can afford your own rail car, it is the only 'premium' option. I haven't seen any evidence of customers dropping out of Amtrak's sleeping cars, anyway. They run full. I'm sure if Amtrak could run 25 car trains with 1st Class Sleepers, 2nd Class Sleepers, and 3rd Class Coach, we might have a better sense of the middle market. But the truth is, sleeper class in other countries, Via excluded, are not particularly premium on most trains- just a berth and sometimes food. Sure, there are exceptions to every rule- the Rossiya's first class cars are danged nice, for instance.

Remember: in retail, the chains which crashed and burned first from the 1980s to the present day were the middlebrow chains. The bottom of the market survived, the top of the market survived, the middle fell out. This has happened in a lot of different specialized retail situations. The middle still exists in restaurants, for whatever reason (I'm actually curious why restaurants have defied the trend). Looking back at retail, one interesting thing is that the rise of the Internet has made *custom work* much more affordable, so the high-end for clothing and other things which don't have big economies of scale is switching back to custom-made, as it was before the 1950s. In airlines, the high end went off into the stratosphere and is often still unaffordable by even the rather-wealthy. (This is partly TSA-related, as the expenses necessary to avoid them are substantial.)
That's actually a totally different concept. Retail used to be a very corrupt and highly inefficient business. I obviously wasn't in retail then, buy my cousin was. Some examples include the fact that most of the middle class stores had highly corrupt buying departments that usually got kickbacks from suppliers in return for higher prices paid. The stores were heavily staffed by people who were paid heavy commissions, obviously. The fashion business is about as risky as businesses get- misjudge this years fashion trends, and you are dead in the water.

The high end stores, such as Neiman Marcus, Nordstrom, Bloomingdales, and Saks Fifth Avenue concentrated on their core customers, who want hand-and-foot waited, super pampered, every request made, kiss ass service, by providing all of that, as they always have. They make huge mark ups on everything, and can handle the inefficiency that is their business model. You can provide every single thing a customer wants in the buying experience when you charge $250 for a pair of hiking boots that are essentially what you can buy in a Sears for $90. I mean, they are a little better, but not enough better to not imply a gigantic margin. So they went smooth sailing, because nobody but them offered what their customers wanted.

The low end stores- Target, K-Mart, and especially Wal-Mart initially went through and demolished the small players offering similar or the same products the middle players offered, but by eliminating the well-paid salesmen, the corrupt buying practices, the inefficient supply chain mechanisms, and the hoighty-toighty upscale retail store model, managed to do it at prices much much lower than the middle tier. As they grew, they first started cutting their costs further through volume, and eventually by getting the mid-tier brands to make special low-tier variations of the product just for them- their buying power was high enough. In the business we talk about two sizing charts- the "Department store" sizing chart, and the "Wal-Mart" or "Chinese" sizing chart- generally speaking subtract two sizes- a Department large is generally similar to a Chinese 2XL, for instance.

The middle tier, bogged down by huge legacy costs, hyper expensive stores in extremely expensive places, an inefficient buying model, and so on, have gone out of business or consolidated, collapsing under their own weight- the Kleins, the Corvettes, the Steinbach's, the Sterns, the A&S's , and so on. There are only four big national mid-tiers left- Macy's, Lord & Taylor, JC Penny's, and Sears. Two of them are on deaths door, and the other two aren't particularly healthy.

But the game has come full circle. Wal-Mart, Target, and K-Mart (especially) are not in good health at all. K-Mart (and Sears) have died because Eddie Lampert is an imbecile of elephantine proportions. Target is ok- $3 billion in operating income on $72 billion in revenue, although I'd find that margin a little scary. Wal-Mart, though, is on deaths door, honestly- its net income has gone down steadily for the past god knows how many years. They brought in $476 Billion (a substantial increase) in revenue last year, on a net income of $16 billion (a substantial decrease). That's 3.3% as a net margin. I call that dead.
 
You could be right. On the other hand, Ed Ellis at Iowa Pacific genuinely believes that the market is going to shift within the next ten years to the point where there will be real private sector competition in passenger train service. He may be wildly optimistic.... but All Aboard Florida seems to be thinking the same way. Having a good reputation is what lets an organization survive such market shifts.
I would honestly be surprised if Iowa Pacific's Pullman venture ends up surviving; remember that he's the same guy who was responsible for putting boxcars on Amtrak's trains.

I don't recognize the reversal on Home Depot, and frankly, what ultimately happened is Lowe's followed Home Depots lead. Because both stores suck, with very limited staffing that doesn't seem to know which end of a hammer to apply to what end of what object, although some of them seem so dumb I think either they or their parents occasionally apply/applied the striking edge of a hammer to their own cranium.
Well, I still get decent advice at Lowes. And Home Depot *claimed* to have reversed the change, though I never went back to check.... anyway, your experience may vary.
A note on Home Depot and Lowes: They really don't need to care about you. Their bread and butter is in contractors (35% of sales) and home remodels. So customer service tends to suck because where they focus it, you aren't likely to see.

Dining cars are another matter and are very complicated to try to account for. Dining cars on long trips are like meals on overseas flights. If you remove the dining cars, you lose most of the through traffic over a certain number of hours, sleeper *or* coach, because people start demanding meal stops. (Meal stops: something Greyhound still does!) And then you're sacrificing runtime. Or you can just abandon the through traffic, but it's hard to predict what your revenue loss will be if you do that, because of network effects; probably larger than you expect.
While you might lose through traffic over a certain number of hours, the question is "How many hours does that take and how many people are we talking about?" The Palmetto does just fine on a 14.5 hour journey with only a cafe car and I would argue that the Capitol and Lake Shore Limiteds would do just fine as well without their diner. Certainly at some point you'll end up losing some patronage if they're purchasing cafe meals instead of getting free diner meals, but where is that point and is the lost patronage revenue going to exceed the savings from ditching the diners?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Me thinks Green Maned Lion needs to be in Washington giving economic Advice to the Politicians, Hucksters and Plain Crooks that have made such a Mess out of our Economy! An Office in the White House with Direct access to the President would be Ideal!

Never mind, I just woke up, "California Dreamin' on a Winter's day!" ^_^
 
To help reduce losses, start by reducking and then totally eliminating the travel agent commissions.

Most agencies charge a fee up front for their services anyway. Ok, so a few agencies might balk at that, but they will still sell Amtrak. Amtrak should be encouraging passengers to book seat at the

companies web site.

If a passenger has to call a central reservations center to book their seat, they should be charged

a $10 fee.

Years ago the airline industry stopped paying agency commissions and they haven't lost any passengers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top