best ways for Amtrak to cut its operating losses?

[TWA904]

Dang, I mis-spelled reducing.

 

[Paulus]

To help reduce losses, start by reducking and then totally eliminating the travel agent commissions.

Most agencies charge a fee up front for their services anyway. Ok, so a few agencies might balk at that, but they will still sell Amtrak. Amtrak should be encouraging passengers to book seat at the

companies web site.

If a passenger has to call a central reservations center to book their seat, they should be charged

a $10 fee.

Years ago the airline industry stopped paying agency commissions and they haven't lost any passengers.

If memory serves, Amtrak tried that awhile back and lost a significant amount of business.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

There is still such a thing as a travel agent?

 

[sunchaser]

There is still such a thing as a travel agent?

Yes, Green Maned Lion, there is.....

I know we have talked of increasing sleepers/coach cars before, but IF there was enough to add 1 each to the LD Routes both ways, would that help?

I for one would like to know if there is enough interest to add more...It seems that if most sleepers are sold out, they would add another on.

Any number crunchers/math whizzes out there that can figure it out?

Also, I think that if they went back to preparing food on board, it should be cheaper, and better tasting.

I also think that using disposables (plates, cups glasses, tablecloths) is not only more expensive, it's not very 'green', if that's something Amtrak cares about. It also cuts out at least one job on each train, the dishwasher.

 

[Ziv]

I wanted to share my views on what would make Amtrak stronger, and then saw that neroden had said everything I wanted to, and said it better than I probably would have.

Longer Trains with more berths/seats

More Trains per day

Faster Trains

Better on time performance via more double tracking and better freight/passenger agreements.

And I would add my one passion. Cheaper seats that allow passengers to get a good nights rest. Either hard sleeper as seen in Asia, or LFAAA seats priced midway between Roomette and Coach. I think the latter is much more likely to be popular.

I say reduce the long distance train frequency .

Then you don't understand the first thing about railroads.

The first thing about railroads is that they have huge fixed costs and small variable costs. They are therefore efficient when dealing with BIG VOLUME and inefficient when dealing with LOW VOLUME.

The best way for Amtrak to cut its operating losses is to leverage the same fixed costs over more service (more service == more revenue).

- run longer trains;
- run more frequencies on the same routes;
- run the same trains faster (using less equipment to run the same number of frequencies, and attracting more passengers);
and of course,
- run the trains on time, which has been proven to get much higher ridership than not running them on time.

As for the administrative positions? You need expertise in a bunch of different things, which means you need to hire a bunch of different administrators. Keep the same number of administrators, but have them administering *a lot more train service*, and suddenly it will seem like an appropriate level of administration.

Railroading is *all* about the economies of scale. Almost entirely.

 

[neroden]

A note on Home Depot and Lowes: They really don't need to care about you. Their bread and butter is in contractors (35% of sales) and home remodels.

I was actually *doing* a remodel. Buying stuff like doors, lumber, pipe fittings, plumbing. My workmen agreed that Home Depot had a complete lack of informed staff.
Both Home Depot and Lowes also get the special, extra-junky "contractor models" of most stuff, but at Lowes they could tell you which ones were the contractor models...

So customer service tends to suck because where they focus it, you aren't likely to see.

I think I saw it.

Dining cars are another matter and are very complicated to try to account for. Dining cars on long trips are like meals on overseas flights. If you remove the dining cars, you lose most of the through traffic over a certain number of hours, sleeper *or* coach, because people start demanding meal stops. (Meal stops: something Greyhound still does!) And then you're sacrificing runtime. Or you can just abandon the through traffic, but it's hard to predict what your revenue loss will be if you do that, because of network effects; probably larger than you expect.

While you might lose through traffic over a certain number of hours, the question is "How many hours does that take and how many people are we talking about?" The Palmetto does just fine on a 14.5 hour journey with only a cafe car and I would argue that the Capitol and Lake Shore Limiteds would do just fine as well without their diner.

You might be right. The problems I see with that on Capitol and Lake Shore are solvable:

(1) The cafe car options suck mightily for breakfast. Breakfast is well patronized, and people specifically want the fresh griddle items.

(2) The cafe car tables fill up very quickly. At the very least, if the dining staff goes away, a second table car is still necessary.

(3) The cafe car runs out of many food options due to high demand. So you need a second car carrying and supplying food....

It's worth noting that unlike on some trains, half the patronage of the Lake Shore Limited dining car is paying coach customers, according to the PIP.

I am curious as to how a buffet car, with a chef and freshly cooked eggs, but without full "table service" waiters, would do. I hear that this has been tried before, and I'm curious how it worked. I could imagine potential operational problems, but I don't know if they actually materialized.

 

[afigg]

One component of how Amtrak can reduce its operating loss or, more accurately generate more revenue. Collect a nickel for every post on the internet with suggestions, ideas, comments on what Amtrak should do to reduce operating losses, where it should add or expand the LD trains, how it is secretly planning to kill the LD trains, and so on. Use the collected funds to overhaul or refurb the Superliners. Ok, maybe with inflation, they should collect a quarter for each post.

Edit: fixed word change caused by spellchecker....

 

[jis]

That way the posts will at least serve some useful purpose? Is that your contention?

 

[afigg]

That way the posts will at least serve some useful purpose? Is that your contention?

Yes, the Amtrak internet commentary tin cup!

 

[tonys96]

You could be right. On the other hand, Ed Ellis at Iowa Pacific genuinely believes that the market is going to shift within the next ten years to the point where there will be real private sector competition in passenger train service. He may be wildly optimistic.... but All Aboard Florida seems to be thinking the same way. Having a good reputation is what lets an organization survive such market shifts.

I would honestly be surprised if Iowa Pacific's Pullman venture ends up surviving; remember that he's the same guy who was responsible for putting boxcars on Amtrak's trains.

I don't recognize the reversal on Home Depot, and frankly, what ultimately happened is Lowe's followed Home Depots lead. Because both stores suck, with very limited staffing that doesn't seem to know which end of a hammer to apply to what end of what object, although some of them seem so dumb I think either they or their parents occasionally apply/applied the striking edge of a hammer to their own cranium.

Well, I still get decent advice at Lowes. And Home Depot *claimed* to have reversed the change, though I never went back to check.... anyway, your experience may vary.

A note on Home Depot and Lowes: They really don't need to care about you. Their bread and butter is in contractors (35% of sales) and home remodels. So customer service tends to suck because where they focus it, you aren't likely to see.

Dining cars are another matter and are very complicated to try to account for. Dining cars on long trips are like meals on overseas flights. If you remove the dining cars, you lose most of the through traffic over a certain number of hours, sleeper *or* coach, because people start demanding meal stops. (Meal stops: something Greyhound still does!) And then you're sacrificing runtime. Or you can just abandon the through traffic, but it's hard to predict what your revenue loss will be if you do that, because of network effects; probably larger than you expect.

While you might lose through traffic over a certain number of hours, the question is "How many hours does that take and how many people are we talking about?" The Palmetto does just fine on a 14.5 hour journey with only a cafe car and I would argue that the Capitol and Lake Shore Limiteds would do just fine as well without their diner. Certainly at some point you'll end up losing some patronage if they're purchasing cafe meals instead of getting free diner meals, but where is that point and is the lost patronage revenue going to exceed the savings from ditching the diners?

Using your reasoning, the AT would do just fine with a cafe car instead of a diner, too, correct. That would allow for an additional coach car, thereby increasing revenues while at the same time decreasing costs Win-Win for everyone except the pax.

(Also, I wondered how many posts you could make without mentioning hoe great the Palmetto is )

 

[tonys96]

There is still such a thing as a travel agent?

And tour agencies, especially those knuckleheads who book a block of rooms, raising the buckets, and then do not use them.

 

[KC Ghost Rider]

There is still such a thing as a travel agent?

And tour agencies, especially those knuckleheads who book a block of rooms, raising the buckets, and then do not use them.

I know a few people who work in the travel business, and I have my own travel agent. I asked about booking blocks of rooms from Amtrak. The response I get is "Very few people ask about going by train" and "I haven't done an Amtrak ticket in years". Therefore, I wonder if this is some urban legend type thing here. Who and where are these agents or agencies? I for one would call them and ask them to stop making dummy reservations. As an aside, I think most people book themselves, with the except of those who cannot for a variety of reasons, such as a disability or those coming from outside North America.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

There are various companies that specialize in rail travel. I assume those are the ones doing it.

 

[MikefromCrete]

I've seen ads for a number of companies that include rail travel in tours, mainly in the Western U.S. and Canada. So those companies do exist, how many passengers are involved is another matter.

 

[Trogdor]

It's not random travel agents booking speculative rooms, but tour groups that include the train as part of a package/organized tour.

There's a popular meme on here that these groups are bad for Amtrak because (ironically) they often book up most/all of the rooms, but the reality is they are often Amtrak's best customers on long-distance trains because they represent tens of thousands of dollars in (practically) guaranteed revenue, and often fill up the sleepers on off peak trains when demand would otherwise be extremely low.

I don't know the details, but my understanding was that they actually got special access to book trains a little bit before they went on sale to the general public. If that's the case, then there's a good reason for that. It's revenue Amtrak can count on. I haven't seen any real indication, other than speculative whining on here, that there is a significant problem of these groups booking massive numbers of rooms and then cancelling them late enough for Amtrak to lose a bunch of potential revenue.

 

[KC Ghost Rider]

I've seen ads for a number of companies that include rail travel in tours, mainly in the Western U.S. and Canada. So those companies do exist, how many passengers are involved is another matter.

Yes, I see what you are referring to; Vacations by Rail is one such company. Going on their website there is quite a list of tours. I did a dummy booking for a tour requiring four roomettes and it covered several Amtrak trains, but they also utilize private rail and buses (motor coaches). So I can see how one can imagine travel agency people getting the lowest bucket. Their customers are not paying low bucket prices, but the company perhaps gets them at the lower bucket and makes a tidy profit. I do agree with the statement that this cannot be bad for Amtrak to have this arrangement because it is steady revenue. This is marginally bad for us as a customer. The real reason it stinks is because we (forum users) have an above average knowledge of how Amtrak pricing works and some of us think we are getting the short end of the stick when we cannot get that coveted low bucket. The general population does not have this information, they just see what it costs and decide if they want to pay it. A full train is good for all of us who are interested seeing Amtrak succeed. I see no harm in letting these groups have their tours. I do stand corrected!

 

[the Other Mike]

Well, at the risk of showing my ignorance:

Airlines USED to sell "stand by" tickets. I realize this might not be apporiate for most travelers, but to people like me, I'd love it.

All of my trips have been OUT of New Orleans and on most trips there were many UNsold rooms in the sleeper ( yes, some are for passengers down the line)

Just for the hell of it, let's say Amtrak starts a new class ( call it what you want ) For $100 a year I can join the list. My name and info goes into the computer. 12 hours before the Sunset leaves NOL for LAX I get an auto call that says it has roomettes open for the next train out. If I would like one I can have it for ( 1/2 price ) if I book within the next ( x hours )

Just like price line and those sites work, why not Amtrak ?

Once I accept and book the travel I could go to my account and say I want the first train LEAVING :AX on stand-by and it updates my request. Maybe I have to stay overnight in LAX and spend for a motel room but so what ? Look at what I saved on Amtrak.

While this really only appeals to the retired or disabled and the like, it's a way to fill the rooms with mostly quality people ( not the great unwashed) and afford those like me who love to travel and yet being disabled makes most travel out of range because of cost.

I could always have a bag packed ready to go....and never know where I'll be going....Atlanta, DV, NYP, Chi, SAS, ELP, LAX ?

Yes, the idea needs tweeking, but there's an idea. Doesn't solve ALL the problems but every little bit helps.

( flame shields UP )

 

[Bob Dylan]

Excellent Suggestion! A Room with a Paying passenger in it @ a Lower price is still better than Hauling an Empty Room!

I still miss the On-Board Upgrades to Sleepers @ Low Bucket (the Texas Eagle was especially Good for this!)but most Conductors didn't want to do the Paperwork and would usually Ignore you or just Lie when you asked about Upgrades! Now Its always @ the Current Price (usually High Bucket) so No Point in even asking unless you have Plenty of Money to Spend and can find a Conductor who wants to do it!! Might as well Book it before you Leave Home for the Station!!!

 

[sunchaser]

Well, at the risk of showing my ignorance:

Airlines USED to sell "stand by" tickets. I realize this might not be apporiate for most travelers, but to people like me, I'd love it.

All of my trips have been OUT of New Orleans and on most trips there were many UNsold rooms in the sleeper ( yes, some are for passengers down the line)

Just for the hell of it, let's say Amtrak starts a new class ( call it what you want ) For $100 a year I can join the list. My name and info goes into the computer. 12 hours before the Sunset leaves NOL for LAX I get an auto call that says it has roomettes open for the next train out. If I would like one I can have it for ( 1/2 price ) if I book within the next ( x hours )

Just like price line and those sites work, why not Amtrak ?

Once I accept and book the travel I could go to my account and say I want the first train LEAVING :AX on stand-by and it updates my request. Maybe I have to stay overnight in LAX and spend for a motel room but so what ? Look at what I saved on Amtrak.

While this really only appeals to the retired or disabled and the like, it's a way to fill the rooms with mostly quality people ( not the great unwashed) and afford those like me who love to travel and yet being disabled makes most travel out of range because of cost.

I could always have a bag packed ready to go....and never know where I'll be going....Atlanta, DV, NYP, Chi, SAS, ELP, LAX ?

Yes, the idea needs tweeking, but there's an idea. Doesn't solve ALL the problems but every little bit helps.

( flame shields UP )

I like it! I would sign up for that too. The only question is how often are there unsold Roomettes or Bedrooms anymore? I would assume off peak times, maybe, but since ridership is up, I wonder if any are available at all? Except of course from cancellations.

 

[railiner]

Well, at the risk of showing my ignorance:

Airlines USED to sell "stand by" tickets. I realize this might not be apporiate for most travelers, but to people like me, I'd love it.

All of my trips have been OUT of New Orleans and on most trips there were many UNsold rooms in the sleeper ( yes, some are for passengers down the line)

Just for the hell of it, let's say Amtrak starts a new class ( call it what you want ) For $100 a year I can join the list. My name and info goes into the computer. 12 hours before the Sunset leaves NOL for LAX I get an auto call that says it has roomettes open for the next train out. If I would like one I can have it for ( 1/2 price ) if I book within the next ( x hours )

Just like price line and those sites work, why not Amtrak ?

Once I accept and book the travel I could go to my account and say I want the first train LEAVING :AX on stand-by and it updates my request. Maybe I have to stay overnight in LAX and spend for a motel room but so what ? Look at what I saved on Amtrak.

While this really only appeals to the retired or disabled and the like, it's a way to fill the rooms with mostly quality people ( not the great unwashed) and afford those like me who love to travel and yet being disabled makes most travel out of range because of cost.

I could always have a bag packed ready to go....and never know where I'll be going....Atlanta, DV, NYP, Chi, SAS, ELP, LAX ?

Yes, the idea needs tweeking, but there's an idea. Doesn't solve ALL the problems but every little bit helps.

( flame shields UP )

If you like the serendipity of just showing up, and going wherever there is space available, you should get yourself a job (even part time) at an airline....than you could fly around wherever, and sometimes combine said travel with Amtrak travel....great once you are retired.....

 

[Ispolkom]

)but most Conductors didn't want to do the Paperwork and would usually Ignore you or just Lie when you asked about Upgrades!

Most conductors? Darn near all, in my experience. In 30 years I only saw one conductor sell an upgrade, and then it was a pair upgrading from roomette to bedroom, who had the SCA to intervene for them.

 

[Crossover]

One Idea could be to cut the number of locomotives and just use one on any Superliner train . Expanding the P42 or P40 to increase its role as a Lead/DPU to where it is strong enough to pull and power the train efficiently without using another locomotive as a dpu . One locomotive can cut fuel cost .

 

[jphjaxfl]

One Idea could be to cut the number of locomotives and just use one on any Superliner train . Expanding the P42 or P40 to increase its role as a Lead/DPU to where it is strong enough to pull and power the train efficiently without using another locomotive as a dpu . One locomotive can cut fuel cost .

what happens when that one locomotive dies, particularly in the mountainous areas? Amtrak seems to have a problem with locomotives malfunctioning enroute. Some of the host railroads such as CSX require they use 2 so they don't foul the line where a train is standing because of a malfunctioning locomotive.

 

[jis]

One Idea could be to cut the number of locomotives and just use one on any Superliner train . Expanding the P42 or P40 to increase its role as a Lead/DPU to where it is strong enough to pull and power the train efficiently without using another locomotive as a dpu . One locomotive can cut fuel cost .

what happens when that one locomotive dies, particularly in the mountainous areas? Amtrak seems to have a problem with locomotives malfunctioning enroute. Some of the host railroads such as CSX require they use 2 so they don't foul the line where a train is standing because of a malfunctioning locomotive.

CSX insists on two only on certain trains, nowhere near even close to all Amtrak trains that they handle.

 

[dlagrua]

On the idea of selling open rooms at the last hours before departure; how can this work? How many of us wait until the last minute to make our travel plans? Even if we did, how does this guarantee that with this last minute booking method we can get a train back?