Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[Anderson]

True, and you do raise another frustrating point on AAF's agreement: There are a string of cities that were in the tentative Amtrak-FEC service schedule and/or that are of substantial size that would make sense (even if they only got 4-6 trains/day) such as Melbourne, Vero, Port St. Lucie, etc. Trains running along this line to Miami would probably get a reasonable amount of business (and let's face it...even if they collectively only generated another 250k round trips, that's probably still $20-30m/yr before station development comes into the picture). They'll never be the main market, but I suspect that the added business on a few "local" trains would make up for business on the "non-local" trains that would migrate to other times...not to mention that you could run peak-hour trains as expresses and nudge those stops to the shoulder hour trains (which they'd be better-timed for).

In an ideal world, you'd get either SunRail or the FEC service extended at least as far as Disney (and frankly, get Disney to interface either the monorail or something else with it to allow a seamless transition as far as is possible) via I-Drive and simply drop the bus services from the airport. And I think that's possible if Disney does what they offered to do with the Orlampa project.

Edit: Perhaps my biggest bone with all of this is that OOCEA is a government entity. It's not a private corporation. It's board is subject to gubernatorial appointment. Yes, it has bond obligations, but it's also got a lot more than the Beeline in its system, and the Beeline has been operating for decades (and so probably should be paid off by now). It is no less of an entrenched concern than, say, Southwest in Texas or Delta in Atlanta...and in a sense it is worse because it's now the government actively tying the hands of a company wanting to put in a common carrier route (which I understand these tracks to be, absent covenants to the contrary).

To put it another way, if it was OOCEA wanting to use eminent domain drop a freight-oriented highway within disused ROW next to the FEC, would anybody be batting an eye?

 

[Bus Nut]

I didn't quote it all, but thanks for all the detailed info, Brian.

It is just that our govenor is bit behind the times with what the average Floridian wants (except for the rural vote in northern Florida and the panhandle!).

Sour grapes. But my feeling from the people I've talked to is that even people who don't live right near the proposed route are all for it. Scott canceled Orlando-Tampa on advice from some boosters/donors who were close to him, not out of any political calculation. (Had he been making a political calculation, given voter sentiment, he almost certainly would not have made the same decision.) It may be that Scott's friends were stuck in that old highway-vs-rail zero sum game mindset. Most people have figured out that it's no fun hitting a highway full of commuters who shoulda taken the train!

But the GOAA can unilaterally impose a fee increase as has been done at other airports - I doubt that any airline would pull out of the Orlando market over this minor issue!

Yeah, I don't think so either. From what I've read there is resistance among the airlines to finance the building of another terminal. (GOAA swears they NEED it but I feel that the issue is highly politicized, what with elected officials, developers, boosters having something of a cargo cult mentality about big projects, that they will somehow cause the big crowds to come if they build the capacity.) They also don't like the plan to build another parking garage.

I've been in there many times lately and other than the jam-up at security it does seem like the existing terminals have unused capacity. It's not totally clear what the future of air travel will be but it is clear that regional flights (intraflorida) have struggled to make a profit. Dayjet (I believe?) went under. Now there is a new regional carrier using prop planes (which travel at slower speeds but use less fuel). But I think the majors would prefer to be well clear of such a risky business and happy to feed travellers from plane to HSR or vice versa.

From the statements I've read lately it seems like the majority of air carriers feel that they will do better partnered with American-style HSR, allowing them to hit a profit sweet spot and slough off the unprofitable short hops, than without it. This is a big contrast to their attitude in the 80s and 90s. (Which was "KILL IT! KILL IT WITH FIRE!")

 

[Bus Nut]

My frustration is based around three points1) The bar on commuter services (does that apply to operations further south...i.e. Banning Tri-Rail on the FEC?), which could potentially impact station location within the Orlando metro area (i.e. I-Drive/Convention Center, Disney, etc.) in the long term;

(2) The bar on freight services; and

(3) The potential for OOCEA to bar the Tampa expansion.

I don't see this as a bar. What it says is that at each step they'll have to go back to the table. FEC clearly wants to keep the option open to run freights, but they'll probably have to negotiate with OOCEA about volume and such. (OOCEA may want to restrict hazmats, for example.) On the other side, there will probably be calls for locals on the line and FEC will have the right to negotiate that. Both of these stipulations protect the HSR service from being unduly encroached by other uses.

Look at NEC. It runs freight as well, time limited to when few passenger movements are occurring. Great. But due to ownership and legacy agreements, Acela service suffers where it runs up against regional rail needs. I'm sure that the Florida stakeholders don't want to see something like that happen on this line.

OOCEA can run a study on toll impacts but ultimately if Tampa wants an extension and all the parties can find the political will and money, it's going to happen. They're just protecting their interests when it happens so they don't end up in a quandary with regards to funding maintenance and security and everything that the tolls pay for (assuming it's structured that way).

As for intentions, I could see Tampa messing this up royally but overall the need for Orlando-Tampa HSR to me is greater than any sort of enhancements between Jacksonville and, well, anywhere, and furthermore, Tampa wants to be a world class city whereas Jacksonville is held back by negative attitudes that try to tear down any kind of civic improvement. The only way Jax gets HSR first is if some Jax politicians get powerful seats in Tallahassee (oops, the Jax based Lt. Gov. resigned a few months ago) or if the business community there suddenly starts to feel left out and just has to have a quicker trip to Miami now now now. And there's always the possibility of a public/Amtrak project on that corridor, maybe after a couple of House election cycles. JMHO.

 

[Bus Nut]

Apparently there is a private RR in Maine that runs excursion trains from Brunswick to Rockland, and frequently enough during the "season" that the citizens' rail advocacy group identified the operation as part of the statewide rail transportation that includes the publicly funded and operated Amtrak Downeaster, which finally extended to Brunswick last year. It isn't HSR, but from what I understand the RR is in it to make money. I think there's a Railroad.net forum devoted to it.

The idea of Amtrak running on new AAF tracks is interesting - highly doubtful as that would be like Walmart letting target open a grocery section inside a Walmart building! That is meant to protect AAF's investment in this route. This is a private venture and is profit motivated, unlike all other passenger rail operators in the USA presently (at least major operators, there may be small routes I am not aware of).

 

[Bus Nut]

In an ideal world, you'd get either SunRail or the FEC service extended at least as far as Disney (and frankly, get Disney to interface either the monorail or something else with it to allow a seamless transition as far as is possible) via I-Drive and simply drop the bus services from the airport.

FTA regulated rail transportation only for me, please. The monorail was an unregulated roll-your-own railroad deal. Like roll-your-own-Linux, there may have been a few oversights in design, a few trade-offs made that don't seem so hot in retrospect. I know that the FTA LRV regs have some issues but the positives well outweigh the negatives.

Also, buyer beware--Disney is making a hash of Anaheim's rail projects and it's really kind of sad how it all went down.

 

[Brian_tampa]

I didn't quote it all, but thanks for all the detailed info, Brian.

It is just that our govenor is bit behind the times with what the average Floridian wants (except for the rural vote in northern Florida and the panhandle!).

Sour grapes. But my feeling from the people I've talked to is that even people who don't live right near the proposed route are all for it. Scott canceled Orlando-Tampa on advice from some boosters/donors who were close to him, not out of any political calculation. (Had he been making a political calculation, given voter sentiment, he almost certainly would not have made the same decision.) It may be that Scott's friends were stuck in that old highway-vs-rail zero sum game mindset. Most people have figured out that it's no fun hitting a highway full of commuters who shoulda taken the train!

But the GOAA can unilaterally impose a fee increase as has been done at other airports - I doubt that any airline would pull out of the Orlando market over this minor issue!

Yeah, I don't think so either. From what I've read there is resistance among the airlines to finance the building of another terminal. (GOAA swears they NEED it but I feel that the issue is highly politicized, what with elected officials, developers, boosters having something of a cargo cult mentality about big projects, that they will somehow cause the big crowds to come if they build the capacity.) They also don't like the plan to build another parking garage.

I've been in there many times lately and other than the jam-up at security it does seem like the existing terminals have unused capacity. It's not totally clear what the future of air travel will be but it is clear that regional flights (intraflorida) have struggled to make a profit. Dayjet (I believe?) went under. Now there is a new regional carrier using prop planes (which travel at slower speeds but use less fuel). But I think the majors would prefer to be well clear of such a risky business and happy to feed travellers from plane to HSR or vice versa.

From the statements I've read lately it seems like the majority of air carriers feel that they will do better partnered with American-style HSR, allowing them to hit a profit sweet spot and slough off the unprofitable short hops, than without it. This is a big contrast to their attitude in the 80s and 90s. (Which was "KILL IT! KILL IT WITH FIRE!")

I hope this reply goes through!

From what I have read, the GOAA wants the new South Terminal only for the expansion of future international flights (and create a new international only terminal??). I have flown from Orlando to international destinations and trust me - the customs and immigration areas are a cluster f**k! However, since the GOAA recently withdrew plans for the terminal, they have continued to plan for the intermodal station and the parking garage with its tram station connection to the north terminal. The airlines still oppose this as they see the intermodal station as a backdoor way of keeping the much more expensive South Terminal project alive. Another factor is that the leadership of the GOAA has for many years wanted to create an intermodal terminal that includes some sort of inter-city rail service. They really want to become the transportation hub for central Florida, and maybe intrude into Miami's turf!

You are correct, intra-Florida air travel is becoming less common. I believe SWA recently announced their withdrawal from MCO to WPB/FLL service all together beginning later this year. I only fly to points within Florida because I have to get somewhere else (like thru the American hub in Miami for most all Carribean flights).

 

[Brian_tampa]

My frustration is based around three points:

(1) The bar on commuter services (does that apply to operations further south...i.e. Banning Tri-Rail on the FEC?), which could potentially impact station location within the Orlando metro area (i.e. I-Drive/Convention Center, Disney, etc.) in the long term;

(2) The bar on freight services; and

(3) The potential for OOCEA to bar the Tampa expansion.

I don't see this as a bar. What it says is that at each step they'll have to go back to the table. FEC clearly wants to keep the option open to run freights, but they'll probably have to negotiate with OOCEA about volume and such. (OOCEA may want to restrict hazmats, for example.) On the other side, there will probably be calls for locals on the line and FEC will have the right to negotiate that. Both of these stipulations protect the HSR service from being unduly encroached by other uses.

Look at NEC. It runs freight as well, time limited to when few passenger movements are occurring. Great. But due to ownership and legacy agreements, Acela service suffers where it runs up against regional rail needs. I'm sure that the Florida stakeholders don't want to see something like that happen on this line.

OOCEA can run a study on toll impacts but ultimately if Tampa wants an extension and all the parties can find the political will and money, it's going to happen. They're just protecting their interests when it happens so they don't end up in a quandary with regards to funding maintenance and security and everything that the tolls pay for (assuming it's structured that way).

As for intentions, I could see Tampa messing this up royally but overall the need for Orlando-Tampa HSR to me is greater than any sort of enhancements between Jacksonville and, well, anywhere, and furthermore, Tampa wants to be a world class city whereas Jacksonville is held back by negative attitudes that try to tear down any kind of civic improvement. The only way Jax gets HSR first is if some Jax politicians get powerful seats in Tallahassee (oops, the Jax based Lt. Gov. resigned a few months ago) or if the business community there suddenly starts to feel left out and just has to have a quicker trip to Miami now now now. And there's always the possibility of a public/Amtrak project on that corridor, maybe after a couple of House election cycles. JMHO.

In response:Also, in regards to the OOCEA agreement where it bars commuter service to any two points in a single county. Well if you look at a map, the only place that AAF will use OOCEA ROW and be bound by this part of the agreement is effectively across Deseret Ranches property! It makes me wonder if AAF put that in the lease in order to prevent Deseret from trying to use the new railroad for their own purposes? I believe you are correct in that AAF is probably wanting to ensure that their trains do not become slowed down by too many future users. Just because it is in the lease and it says OOCEA will not permit it does not always mean that it was OOCEA's idea. The lease is a two way agreement to be used by both parties for their own reasons.

Edit: now that I think about it more, the OOCEA has alot to lose by allowing a parallel transit option to any future Deseret Ranches development along the Beachline. So most likely they put that restriction in the lease agreement.

Same thing for the freight use issue. If the OOCEA wants to prevent it, why does the lease also stipulate that the track must be built for freight? Sounds like one of the lease agreement parties added the design specification part in order to allow for possible future freight use.

I agree that the city of Tampa (or Hillsborough County government more likely) could put up road blocks. Hopefully, AAF has enough political and business (meaning developer) connections to overcome that in the future. Or maybe Tampa will provide incentives like you mention, in order to make it happen. I think that AAF has seen the ridership studies that were done previously for the aborted HSR project and understands its potential. Back in 2010, several foreign companies wanted to bid on the rights to build and operate just the Orlando to Tampa section. So obviously there is good potential traffic for AAF to look at when expanding west to Tampa.

Look for Disney to be a real player in all of this as well. Remember that several AAF executives have worked for Disney in their careers. I would not be surprised if Disney does become financially involved in some way, perhaps by building their own station at their resort? But all of that is at least 5 years down the road and only if the MIA-ORL section is successful.

Edit: does anyone know of any ridership studies done for the Jacksonville to Miami or Orlando markets? I am only aware of studies done for MIA-ORL-TPA for previous HSR efforts.

 

[chrsjrcj]

This is the last passenger rail plan (that I'm aware of) by FDOT: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/Publications/Plans/06VisionPlan/ExecReportFinal.pdf

For something similar to AAF, look at page 11. Though hardly as many trains as AAF wants to run, it was projected that after a two year ramp up period, the line would carry 2 million passengers. Note that the number includes Miami to Orlando and Miami to Jacksonville.

 

[Anderson]

Jacksonville has generally been omitted from studies like this, though I'm not sure why it has been so ignored. I know Tampa-Orlando-Miami was designated as the corridor, but the ommission of Jacksonville-Miami/Orlando was always a bit odd, even as a secondary point. That said, it's something of a "target of opportunity" for the FEC.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Also, in regards to the OOCEA agreement where it bars commuter service to any two points in a single county. Well if you look at a map, the only place that AAF will use OOCEA ROW and be bound by this part of the agreement is effectively across Deseret Ranches property! It makes me wonder if AAF put that in the lease in order to prevent Deseret from trying to use the new railroad for their own purposes?

My thought too.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

It is starting to sound like this will just be a glorified people mover system for airports and theme parks.
After experiencing the universal cross usability of services and many cases tickets around Berlin in Germany, this last week, I am truly distressed to learn of the direction that this passenger rail effort in FL is taking.

But the fearless leader of the U.S. House's Subcommittee on Railroads, Pipelines and Hazardous Materials, Rep. Denham, will go to Florida and look at the AAF project as part of the reauthorization of Amtrak.

From Politico:

T&I railroads Chairman Jeff Denham and his staff are "just starting to put language together" for the Amtrak bill that's due before October, he told MT, adding that the legislation is "definitely on track" for this summer. His panel will hold at least two more field hearings, including one in Florida to look at All Aboard Florida, a Miami-to-Orlando high-speed system that would be built and run by a private-sector company.

 

[Anderson]

Denham may be a pain; I've got a better feeling on Shuster on this front. Then again, services like AAF and/or Keystone are what Shuster does seem to want pursued.

 

[Brian_tampa]

To play devil's advocate here, what is so bad about AAF versus Amtrak? I have rode Amtrak before over the past 30+ years. I do not see where they are worthy of being the only passenger rail operator in this country. IMHO I think we need more private services such as AAF. In five years from now, let's come back and compare Amtrak services in the midwest to AAF. I want improved passenger rail in this country and am willing to consider all options.

 

[Anderson]

To play devil's advocate here, what is so bad about AAF versus Amtrak? I have rode Amtrak before over the past 30+ years. I do not see where they are worthy of being the only passenger rail operator in this country. IMHO I think we need more private services such as AAF. In five years from now, let's come back and compare Amtrak services in the midwest to AAF. I want improved passenger rail in this country and am willing to consider all options.

You know, I would almost have preferred to see the state acquire the land and lease it to the FEC for a nominal price for a very long, renewable period in exchange for a passenger service/track condition commitment (i.e. if FEC doesn't run the service, or allow a third party to operate it and treat them well, they forfeit the property back to the state).

To answer your question, though, I see nothing wrong with there being other rail operators, though I'd like to see a system of guaranteed interlining of tickets (and agreements on what constitutes a "guaranteed connection" between any two operators in a given city). I support Amtrak because it is, for the most part, the rail operator in the US. If VIA suddenly started running trains into New England, I'd support them. If NS woke up tomorrow morning and wanted to run passenger service on their own, I'd support them. Hell, if UP was game I'd support them so long as I felt it was a good faith attempt.

On a certain level, I do not give a damn who runs the trains, so long as they keep running. I support Amtrak because they run the trains, and indeed run them pretty well, at the present time. And I would still support them if there were competition within passenger rail, though I would also support the competition as well.(1) (2)

So in short, I have every reason to believe that the FEC is operating in good faith, and therefore I support them. When their new service opens up, I will take it with as much frequency as I can justify.

(1) Actually, I have "supported the competition" insofar as I took Metro-North to New Haven and back once with that bar car.

(2) I'm reminded of some old-time rail buffs who would purposefully divide their time between competitors with certain city pairs.

 

[Anderson]

A question comes to mind with these restrictions: What, if anything, is stopping someone from running a feeder bus to Tampa?

Edit: And what would it cost to set up an hourly bus (to meet the hourly trains) from 2-3 locations around Tampa and the Orlando airport?

 

[The Davy Crockett]

To play devil's advocate here, what is so bad about AAF versus Amtrak? I have rode Amtrak before over the past 30+ years. I do not see where they are worthy of being the only passenger rail operator in this country. IMHO I think we need more private services such as AAF. In five years from now, let's come back and compare Amtrak services in the midwest to AAF. I want improved passenger rail in this country and am willing to consider all options.

I don't look at it as Amtrak vs. AAF. My problem is if - and I think this is likely - Rep. Denham holds the hearing in the context of AAF as an example of how to run passenger service in the United States and thus that AAF's business model is an example of what Amtrak should do, or how Amtrak could be turned into a private, for profit, business.

First of all, AAF's business model relies on some pretty special circumstances, when one considers AAF's parent company's real estate holdings in Florida. Granted Amtrak owns some prime real estate in the NEC, but Amtrak is primarily about moving people, and while some of its real estate holdings can be used in ways to generate both income and ridership, I do not believe Amtrak's land holdings are anywhere near the acreage of AAF's parent company.

But hold on a minute here. Even if their real estate holdings were comparable by some measure, the success of AAF's business model exists only on paper. So should something that has not even been built, with absolutely zilch of a proven 'track record' ( ) be held out as an example of how to run a railroad? Once AAF is up and running, a comparison might be of value, but before then, IMHO, it seems to be a case of someone's ideology tripping over reality.

 

[Bob Dylan]

To play devil's advocate here, what is so bad about AAF versus Amtrak? I have rode Amtrak before over the past 30+ years. I do not see where they are worthy of being the only passenger rail operator in this country. IMHO I think we need more private services such as AAF. In five years from now, let's come back and compare Amtrak services in the midwest to AAF. I want improved passenger rail in this country and am willing to consider all options.

But hold on a minute here. Even if their real estate holdings were comparable by some measure, the success of AAF's business model exists only on paper. So should something that has not even been built, with absolutely zilch of a proven 'track record' ( ) be held out as an example of how to run a railroad? Once AAF is up and running, a comparison might be of value, but before then, IMHO, it seems to be a case of someone's ideology tripping over reality.

True this! Putting the Cart before the Horse Never Works!

 

[Bus Nut]

Look for Disney to be a real player in all of this as well. Remember that several AAF executives have worked for Disney in their careers. I would not be surprised if Disney does become financially involved in some way, perhaps by building their own station at their resort? But all of that is at least 5 years down the road and only if the MIA-ORL section is successful.

Hiring Disney insiders was a shrewd move by FEC. Disney can make or break projects in Orlando; hopefully with that human connection they can persuade Disney to be a partner rather than having Disney react in their usual paranoid way to try to destroy it.

(For those who don't live in Florida, Disney and Darden restaurants just killed an Orange County law that would have mandated a few days of paid sick leave a year for all workers, primarily benefiting restaurant/hospitality workers who currently don't get paid sick leave. Cue jokes about your next Disney vacation.)

 

[Bus Nut]

To play devil's advocate here, what is so bad about AAF versus Amtrak? I have rode Amtrak before over the past 30+ years. I do not see where they are worthy of being the only passenger rail operator in this country. IMHO I think we need more private services such as AAF. In five years from now, let's come back and compare Amtrak services in the midwest to AAF. I want improved passenger rail in this country and am willing to consider all options.

Here's the issue: most passenger rail service in this country is run at a loss. If not an operating loss (and Amtrak is very focused on narrowing this down), then a fully allocated loss when you consider capital expenses.

However, there are some opportunities for HSR corridors than can be profitable overall. Thus, we see this HSR gold rush forming, often with high cooperation from local governments than see benefits to them.

However, there's always the risk that the public interest will get shunted aside for private profit, with the public on the hook if it all goes wrong. That's why public private partnerships have to be carefully negotiated on a level playing field.

The risk is that some federal legislators, more motivated by ideology than practical concerns, will stack the deck against the public operator or even starve it of funds, allow funds to flow to private entities for private profit while cannibalizing the subsidized, public service. The secondary risk is that those communities that depend upon subsidized service will be hurt. Badly.

Government is formed to provide for the common weal. It's not a charity for would be masters of the universe to get rich quick.

If you think I'm jawboning just look at what's going on in Orlando with new bus routes being farmed out to private operators, almost like a private coach operator welfare bill. And the jeeniuses in DC are trying to take this failed model national.

 

[Brian_tampa]

To play devil's advocate here, what is so bad about AAF versus Amtrak? I have rode Amtrak before over the past 30+ years. I do not see where they are worthy of being the only passenger rail operator in this country. IMHO I think we need more private services such as AAF. In five years from now, let's come back and compare Amtrak services in the midwest to AAF. I want improved passenger rail in this country and am willing to consider all options.

But hold on a minute here. Even if their real estate holdings were comparable by some measure, the success of AAF's business model exists only on paper. So should something that has not even been built, with absolutely zilch of a proven 'track record' ( ) be held out as an example of how to run a railroad? Once AAF is up and running, a comparison might be of value, but before then, IMHO, it seems to be a case of someone's ideology tripping over reality.

True this! Putting the Cart before the Horse Never Works!

Ok. I get that because AAF has not sold the first ticket yet. However, we all know of Amtrak's track record over the past 40+ years. So should Amtrak be held out as an example of how to run a railroad either? Now all of that is not their fault. Congress has alot of blame for the current state of affairs. But that is exactly my point in bringing this up. Does anyone really expect much to change in regards to Amtrak and how well they are funded for the next 10-20 years? We as a country must demand something better than the same old crap that is touted as the best that Americans can do with passenger rail. I for one do not think Amtrak is the answer. It is too politicized and subject to the whims of congress. Amtrak is not the model that we need to duplicate as we go forward with HSR or HrSR systems in this country. Until we get our government 100% behind passenger rail, Amtrak will always be a mess. At least AAF represents hope for a better future in this country for passenger rail.

IMO AAF will serve as a good test case for whether the private sector can run trains and somehow be profitable. You say AAF is unique. Not really. All they have is 9 acres of land in downtown Miami plus a 200 mile railroad between Miami and Cocoa. Most railroads at one time (or still do) owned land in the downtowns of major cities across this country. Maybe what is different about AAF (and FECI) is that they did not sell their land back in the 1960's when most railroads got out of running passenger trains. Any smart company can figure out a way to maximize the value of real estate in any given city in the USA. It is not unique to Florida. It is a matter of motivation and desire!

 

[Brian_tampa]

To play devil's advocate here, what is so bad about AAF versus Amtrak? I have rode Amtrak before over the past 30+ years. I do not see where they are worthy of being the only passenger rail operator in this country. IMHO I think we need more private services such as AAF. In five years from now, let's come back and compare Amtrak services in the midwest to AAF. I want improved passenger rail in this country and am willing to consider all options.

Here's the issue: most passenger rail service in this country is run at a loss. If not an operating loss (and Amtrak is very focused on narrowing this down), then a fully allocated loss when you consider capital expenses.

However, there are some opportunities for HSR corridors than can be profitable overall. Thus, we see this HSR gold rush forming, often with high cooperation from local governments than see benefits to them.

However, there's always the risk that the public interest will get shunted aside for private profit, with the public on the hook if it all goes wrong. That's why public private partnerships have to be carefully negotiated on a level playing field.

The risk is that some federal legislators, more motivated by ideology than practical concerns, will stack the deck against the public operator or even starve it of funds, allow funds to flow to private entities for private profit while cannibalizing the subsidized, public service. The secondary risk is that those communities that depend upon subsidized service will be hurt. Badly.

Government is formed to provide for the common weal. It's not a charity for would be masters of the universe to get rich quick.

If you think I'm jawboning just look at what's going on in Orlando with new bus routes being farmed out to private operators, almost like a private coach operator welfare bill. And the jeeniuses in DC are trying to take this failed model national.

I'm not sure of local bus service being privatized and how well that would work out. AAF is planning to provide a service that the government has refused to provide (remember Rick Scott?). And also, in the case of AAF the public will not be on the hook if the service fails miserably. Even in the case of the RRIF loan they applied for, AAF has to pay for it either by putting up collateral or agreeing to payment terms to ensure the loan will be paid. In the history of the RRIF program, not one loan has failed to be paid back. Maybe it is just me, but I would trust private investors more to determine whether a project will be profitable than I would ever trust government agencies that are only there to create jobs and spend money ( with the side effect of perhaps providing some kind of public service...).

 

[The Davy Crockett]

To say that FECI's only involvement in Florida real estate is 9 acres in Miami is not the case. Take a look at their website.

From their website:

Florida East Coast Industries, Inc. (FECI), is one of Florida's oldest and largest full-service commercial real estate and infrastructure companies. Headquartered in Coral Gables, Florida, FECI has a rich history dating back more than a century. Mr. Henry Flagler first established a predecessor company in 1892, which became a pioneer in the development of Florida's eastern coast. Today, FECI continues to transform Florida as the parent company to the following real estate, transportation, and infrastructure businesses within the state... [see website for list]

One from the list is Flagler:

Flagler is one of Florida’s oldest and largest full-service commercial real estate companies. The company owns, manages, leases, or has under development more than 7 million square feet of Class-A office and industrial space located in strategic markets throughout the state. Flagler also owns 2,500 acres of Florida land with entitlements in place for in excess of 14 million square feet of development.

This information is old, bot it is interesting to see where FECI's real estate holdings were concentrated in 2000:

In July 2000, FECI's commercial real estate unit, Gran Central Corporation, was renamed Flagler Development Company to reflect its connection with pioneering developer Henry Flagler. It then owned 55 buildings and about 19,000 acres of land, mostly in Jacksonville, Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, and Miami. Flagler, which employed fewer than two dozen people at the time, was moving into a new headquarters and opening offices in Fort Lauderdale and Orlando as its staff expanded. In September 2000, the company announced plans to borrow money for the first time in its history to fund the development of its 16 million square feet of space in Jacksonville, Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, and Miami, reported the Business Journal of Jacksonville. Flagler also was buying property for development in Tampa.

Sounds pretty unique to me. It also seems to me, and I'm not the first one to say this, that AAF is a vehicle to enhance profits in other sectors of FECI's portfolio. AAF is only one portion of a large and diverse for-profit company. Amtrak is in the business of moving people. That is it. And it is not a private for-profit company. Comparing AAF and Amtrak is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. There are things that might be learned, but my point is that trying to judge one by the (proposed) characteristics of the other at the upcoming hearing seems pretty speculative and useless at this time.

 

[Brian_tampa]

To say that FECI's only involvement in Florida real estate is 9 acres in Miami is not the case. http://www.feci.com/]Take a look at their website[/url].From their website:

Florida East Coast Industries, Inc. (FECI), is one of Florida's oldest and largest full-service commercial real estate and infrastructure companies. Headquartered in Coral Gables, Florida, FECI has a rich history dating back more than a century. Mr. Henry Flagler first established a predecessor company in 1892, which became a pioneer in the development of Florida's eastern coast. Today, FECI continues to transform Florida as the parent company to the following real estate, transportation, and infrastructure businesses within the state... [see website for list]

One from the list is http://www.feci.com/index.php?page=companies-flagler]Flagler:[/url]

Flagler is one of Floridas oldest and largest full-service commercial real estate companies. The company owns, manages, leases, or has under development more than 7 million square feet of Class-A office and industrial space located in strategic markets throughout the state. Flagler also owns 2,500 acres of Florida land with entitlements in place for in excess of 14 million square feet of development.

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/florida-east-coast-industries-inc-history/]This information is old[/url], bot it is interesting to see where FECI's real estate holdings were concentrated in 2000:

In July 2000, FECI's commercial real estate unit, Gran Central Corporation, was renamed Flagler Development Company to reflect its connection with pioneering developer Henry Flagler. It then owned 55 buildings and about 19,000 acres of land, mostly in Jacksonville, Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, and Miami. Flagler, which employed fewer than two dozen people at the time, was moving into a new headquarters and opening offices in Fort Lauderdale and Orlando as its staff expanded. In September 2000, the company announced plans to borrow money for the first time in its history to fund the development of its 16 million square feet of space in Jacksonville, Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, and Miami, reported the Business Journal of Jacksonville. Flagler also was buying property for development in Tampa.

Sounds pretty unique to me. It also seems to me, and I'm not the first one to say this, that AAF is a vehicle to enhance profits in other sectors of FECI's portfolio. AAF is only one portion of a large and diverse for-profit company. Amtrak is in the business of moving people. That is it. And it is not a private for-profit company. Comparing AAF and Amtrak is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. There are things that might be learned, but my point is that trying to judge one by the (proposed) characteristics of the other at the upcoming hearing seems pretty speculative and useless at this time.

My point is not that Flagler or FECI does not own alot of real estate in Florida. That they indeed do. It is just that if you look at the land that they own next to the FECR right of way between Miami and Cocoa is minimal. Most of it is in areas that are industrial (or office parks) and of limited development potential for passenger rail. Now having said that, i am not privy to what FECI has bought nearby to their proposed stations. my point is, is that any company could come in and buy land near a railroad corridor (and passenger stations) and profit from its development into a passenger route. If that company also chose to create a new passenger rail service to enhance its real estate holdings then more power to them. FECI surely can't be the only company in the USA to see the value in this?
My point is that Amtrak as it currently exists is a failed model of how to run passenger trains. All i am saying is that because our government has no motivation to make sure that Amtrak succeeds is reason enough to at least begin to look elsewhere for how to grow passenger rail travel in the USA. Is Amtrak really in the business of just moving people? If that was the case why have they cut service to Tampa over the past 15 years from three trains a day to just one? Amtrak does not care about moving people because of its unique relationship with the government. It answers only to the whim of congress, not to market demands. IMO AAF will be more responsive to the market and able to adjust accordingly.

I have not read what the agenda of the upcoming field hearings are on passenger rail. I do know Rep. Dedham wants to hold one here in Florida this summer. Amtrak and AAF are apples and oranges - that is my point. we need to open a discussion on how to move forward from here because how things are going is not good for passenger rail in this country. Amtrak needs to change, I do not see a possible solution forward without some sort of change happening to the way Amtrak does business.

Edit: I did not mean FECI only has 9 acres in Miami. I meant what AAF has available to develop. FECI as a whole will benefit - but AAF is responsible for the TOD around their stations. See the STB filing from October of last year in order to understand what AAF has planned. They are two separate companies, AAF-Operations and AAF-Stations.

 

[chrsjrcj]

AAF recently purchased land in West Palm Beach for the station and some TOD. Let's not forget that the proposed stations in Fort Lauderdale and West Palm will have space for retail, but I imagine Miami will be their big money maker with hotel and offices. Isn't this kind of what JR does.... developing land around their train stations?

As far as local service on the FEC, there is the Tri-Rail proposal (possibly all the way to Vero Beach), and the station proposals I've seen for it definitely incluse some TOD. Plus hopefully the state and Amtrak can finally get together to run on the FEC from Jax to WPB.

Maybe I have some naive optimism regarding the project.

 

[Anderson]

Chris: It is. IIRC, JR Central makes most of their profits off of the station-related developments. The equivalent would be if Amtrak were permitted, when a route goes in, to plan a TOD project.