Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[jis]

No, I'm not saying its OK to rob Florida to put more money into the NEC. On the contrary, I think the same rules should apply to everybody.
However, FEC as yet is still on the drawing board. If and when it does start turning a profit and delivering a better service than Amtrak, then I am okay with looking into why Amtrak can't do the same, or maybe hiring FEC managers to make proposals on what to do about Amtrak. But right now we are comparing a working railroad with something that is still a project. The proof of the pudding should be in the eating, not in what the chef promises.

What is interesting though is that FEC has hired an Amtrak manager to run the show for them!
I agree that we should stop counting our chicken way before the eggs hatch.

 

[Anderson]

Non-delegation doctrine is a bit of a tangle, though I generally do support it (since...let's face it, regulatory agencies pulling rules out of their arse gave us all sorts of goodies from the ICC), even if it's burning us in some cases. The problem in this case is the odd status of Amtrak (namely, being "private" in name only), which generates some problems insofar as letting Amtrak set government rules by which Amtrak has to operate.

 

[jis]

Non-delegation doctrine is a bit of a tangle, though I generally do support it (since...let's face it, regulatory agencies pulling rules out of their arse gave us all sorts of goodies from the ICC), even if it's burning us in some cases. The problem in this case is the odd status of Amtrak (namely, being "private" in name only), which generates some problems insofar as letting Amtrak set government rules by which Amtrak has to operate.

Wrong thread maybe? Sounds like something that belongs in the "Court: Penalties for Poor Amtrak Handling Unconstitutional in Amtrak Rail Discussion" thread.

 

[Anderson]

...I was wondering where that post had gone...

 

[jis]

Good thing is that as Moderator you can actually fix it

 

[Ryan]

That's OK, just post something about the FEC in the other thread and it'll all balance out.

 

[Anderson]

Good thing is that as Moderator you can actually fix it

But that would be cheating!

 

[user 1215]

No matter how you look at it, FEC has a much stronger chance at success than the X-Train, Z-Train and a lot of other ventures that want to run trains on other peoples track. Even the most successful non-Amtrak one of these died a painful death - the Denver Ski Train.

FEC is a holding company with the railroad being it's foundation. They are railroaders, not model train enthusiasts, and I hope they make this thing work.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Looks like more behind the scenes negotiating with the Deseret Ranches people:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-deseret-orlando-miami-train-20130716,0,6956136.story

At least AAF gets a better ROW out of this that will ensure higher speeds and less construction issues (and costs). Although it sounds like some of the savings might go toward mollifying the Morman church ranch. I just hope it is done in an environmentally sensitive way!

 

[Brian_tampa]

Interesting goings on at the OOCEA this week (and next week). Their ROW committee met yesterday and approved the attached contract document for the purchase of land adjacent to the Beachline Expy. The OOCEA is buying a 200 ft wide strip of land for 12 million dollars from Deseret Ranches. Buried in the contract document it spells out that AAF (and perhaps others) will place no less than 38 million dollars in escrow to be used to eventually construct the extension of the Osceola Parkway onto Deseret Ranches land. See section 11 on pages 12 and 13 of the document.

https://www.oocea.com/Portals/0/2013%20board%20meetings/July%2024/Deseret%20Ranch%20Agr.pdf

This contract agreement is also an action item for approval by the Executive Board of the OOCEA at their monthly meeting next Wednesday on 7/24/13. See:

https://www.oocea.com/CorporateInformation/Administration/BoardMeetings/MeetingAgenda.aspx?meetingID=190&category=board_meeting

IMO this deal is a big giveaway to the Morman Mormon church. There are alot of conditions they have attached to this deal - this is the other shoe dropping on the lease agreement that OOCEA, AAF, FDOT and Deseret Ranches agreed to last month.

 

[John Bredin]

MormOn. Mormon. Mormon.

Carry on! :giggle:

Sorry, not Mormon/LDS, but that misspelling was distracting. I kept thinking of mermen, though the usual Florida tourist-trap shtick is mermaids.

 

[Brian_tampa]

MormOn. Mormon. Mormon.
Carry on! :giggle:

Sorry, not Mormon/LDS, but that misspelling was distracting. I kept thinking of mermen, though the usual Florida tourist-trap shtick is mermaids.

Ooops! Thanks for the spelling error catch! It was late and was a long day for me last night when I posted it. But now that I see it, it is kind of really obvious!

 

[Brian_tampa]

I missed this other bit of news that OOCEA is working on, this is from the OOCEA's Executive Director's monthly report:for July:

“Transmitted the Board resolution of support for passenger rail between OIA and International Drive to FDOT for preparation of an RFP.”

I assume the new RFP is going to be similar to the RFP that AAF responded to last November December 7th for the BeachLine Expressway lease. I remember that the OOCEA was designated the lead agency in overseeing the RFP and negotiating on behalf of FDOT, the Turnpike Authority and the OOCEA (since they all own pieces of the expressways in the Orlando area). I doubt if this is for the maglev train proposal between OIA and I-Drive that was presented to the OOCEA recently. An RFP is not for government projects (such as SunRail), but used for public/private ventures such as AAF. Florida just updated the laws regarding public/private projects this past session in Tallahassee. Perhaps this new RFP is the very beginning of a possible expansion westward to Disney (or maybe for a local light rail route)? It is hard to say what exactly this RFP is about due to the absence of any details.

 

[Anderson]

I wouldn't be surprised either way. It's quite possible that FEC did some studies and wants an extension to Disney ASAP. It's also possible that the plan is to extend to Disney/Tampa in 3-5 years, but wants to get their ducks in a row first...which would make more sense than waiting several years to start the process. Even if they decided not to go with the extension for some reason, it might well make more sense to risk abandoning a deposit than to risk losing several years to "study" delays.

 

[afigg]

AAF says that they are close to putting out design bids for the project according to this article Miami-Orlando train plans gain steam Excerpt:

Managers of the project to operate a premium Miami-Orlando passenger train service say they are close to putting out bids to design the railroad corridor stretching from downtown Miami to the Orlando International Airport.
“We will be awarding design packages for the West Palm Beach to Miami segment August or September,” Husein Cumber, executive vice president for corporate development for Florida East Coast Industries, told a meeting Thursday in Coral Gables of the Florida Transportation Commission.
After the meeting, Cumber went further and said the design packages are for the Miami-Orlando corridor.
“The design and engineering packages we plan to release are for varying segments of the 240-mile corridor,” Cumber said later. “We anticipate beginning construction on the rail infrastructure between Miami and West Palm Beach by the end of this year.”

 

[Anderson]

I'm starting to wonder if we might not see a MIA-WPB operating segment running in some form before the whole project gets finished (since MIA-WPB probably needs the least work but is getting bid out first).

 

[Paulus]

I'm starting to wonder if we might not see a MIA-WPB operating segment running in some form before the whole project gets finished (since MIA-WPB probably needs the least work but is getting bid out first).

It's possible and was talked about early on, but the lead time on getting the rail cars probably means not.

Relatedly, it's quite unfortunate that they're going with ***** Amtrak/airline style boarding.

 

[MattW]

Good grief, I bet they got leaned on by tsa or dhs or one of the other reprehensible alphabet soup components.

 

[Anderson]

Good grief, I bet they got leaned on by tsa or dhs or one of the other reprehensible alphabet soup components.

I'm not even going to comment.

 

[PRR 60]

This may have nothing to do with “security.” It would not surprise me if they were planning to use transit-style ticket collection with tickets validated in and out at the stations and passengers passing in and out of secured paid areas. With properly designed stations and fare collection equipment, on-board ticket collection or scanning would not be required. That would eliminate the need to have multiple conductors on board collecting tickets. One conductor could be used to meet operating requirements, and could even be located in the cab with the engineer. The passenger cars could be staffed with a few non-op attendants.

Back in the 1960's, the FEC broke a lot of old-school train staffing barriers; even to the extent they endured a long and sometimes violent strike and hired non-union labor to operate their trains. FEC refused to sign on to the national railroad labor agreement, and that freed them from the standard work rules. One of the changes they made in the last stages of FEC passenger service was to eliminate conductors collecting tickets. This new plan would fit that thinking.

 

[Brian_tampa]

This may have nothing to do with “security.” It would not surprise me if they were planning to use transit-style ticket collection with tickets validated in and out at the stations and passengers passing in and out of secured paid areas. With properly designed stations and fare collection equipment, on-board ticket collection or scanning would not be required. That would eliminate the need to have multiple conductors on board collecting tickets. One conductor could be used to meet operating requirements, and could even be located in the cab with the engineer. The passenger cars could be staffed with a few non-op attendants.
Back in the 1960's, the FEC broke a lot of old-school train staffing barriers; even to the extent they endured a long and sometimes violent strike and hired non-union labor to operate their trains. FEC refused to sign on to the national railroad labor agreement, and that freed them from the standard work rules. One of the changes they made in the last stages of FEC passenger service was to eliminate conductors collecting tickets. This new plan would fit that thinking.

Also remember as part of their EA report provided to the FRA, they mentioned that there would be some sort of assigned seating. It mentioned customers would be assigned to specific cars (and perhaps seats?) and they would stand at designated spots on the platform marked by numbers (electronic signage I assume). I think they are also doing the holding area process due to concerns about liability. They don't want customers on the platforms just feet away from an active freight railroad!

 

[pennyk]

Here is an article regarding concerns of Delray Beach residents about noisy train horns.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-07-27/news/fl-all-aboard-florida-quiet-zones-20130727_1_all-aboard-florida-quiet-zones-wayside-horns

 

[Anderson]

One thing to bear in mind: Enough of the business is likely to be MIA-ORL at the start (though FLL-ORL will likely run a close second, followed by both-directions business at WPB) that you'll have trains sitting in the station for a bit prior to departure. This is especially true with the Miami station (with tracks four stories up at a stub-end terminal, discussed here: http://miami.curbed.com/archives/2012/11/07/all-aboard-florida-station-layouts.php )...though I suspect if commuter operations come into the mix like I think FEC wants, four tracks may not cut it if you have a highly directional flow of traffic.

 

[user 1215]

I'm sure they have this all figured out, but where is FEC getting the money to do this? I know they are sort of "Independently wealthy," but this report shows operating losses and profits that are barely modest for a company about to put out the expenditure they are.

As for kindergarten walk boarding, that's gotta go. No need for it here!

Finally, I still don't see the benefit in training into Orlando. What good is a fast journey if it takes an additional hour (public transit) or $50+ (taxi) or so to get the last 5 miles to where you're going?

 

[chrsjrcj]

Florida East Coast Industries (FECI), the parent company of FEC Railway, is behind the project. FECI is heavily involved in real estate in Florida.