Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[jis]

My only surprise is that they don't have the hysterical opposition to high platforms which most of the US freight railroads have. Why, perhaps it is actually possible to run freight trains past standard high platforms without problem. CSX and NS should take notes and learn how.

They don't need to worry about high level platforms clashing with freight trains because all high platform stations existing and planned on Brightline where the route is shared with freight have or will have a freight bypass track, and that is their general plan. The platforms for TriRail only stations are all low platform.

My information from Brightline suggest that there will be no freight traffic on new Brightline trackage through the airport. Only freight traffic on trackage partly on airport property will be on the OUC trackage like is the case now.

 

[user 1215]

My information from Brightline suggest that there will be no freight traffic on new Brightline trackage through the airport. Only freight traffic on trackage partly on airport property will be on the OUC trackage like is the case now.

...Using that new little joggle they created by International Corporate Park Blvd? It's current condition is certainly no better than to accommodate construction equipment. Looks way too curvy. It didn't look like they prepped that construction junction to accommodate freight without a complete redo. Not saying that means they won't, but it doesn't seem to be part of the imminent plan.

 

[neroden]

Well, the thing is that they're "starting fresh" and most stations have built-in bypass trackage. I suspect that if Amtrak went to every Class I and offered to pay to either (1) build a no-reduced-speed-needed bypass or (2) offered to move the station off the main line in such a way as it didn't interrupt mainline service when their trains came into the station, most of those objections would vanish. FEC also doesn't have a lot of freight traffic to begin with versus (say) the BNSF transcon, so "juggling" that traffic is far less of a problem...which of course leads back to the fact that the resulting operation on FEC is likely to be approaching half-and-half pax business and freight.

Well, that does seem to be the CSX policy (have a station siding and they're happy), as demonstrated in Rochester and Buffalo. Interesting given CSX's notoriously uncooperative behavior and gratutitously dishonest, frivolous legal filings in other matters. Due to the history of Superliner use, UP and BNSF haven't been asked to have high platforms, so who knows what their opinions are. I'm not sure whether NS is really following the same policy as CSX on this, but maybe.

 

[Anderson]

Well, that does seem to be the CSX policy (have a station siding and they're happy), as demonstrated in Rochester and Buffalo. Interesting given CSX's notoriously uncooperative behavior and gratutitously dishonest, frivolous legal filings in other matters. Due to the history of Superliner use, UP and BNSF haven't been asked to have high platforms, so who knows what their opinions are. I'm not sure whether NS is really following the same policy as CSX on this, but maybe.

It's hard to tell. The two new Amtrak stations on NS tracks in recent years are both off of a double main. Norfolk is a low platform, Roanoke is a high platform, but in both cases you can relatively easily get freight around without going close to the platform. To the extent that Charlottesville got an overhaul, it's a low platform from a little while back IINM.

 

[cirdan]

I suspect that if Amtrak went to every Class I and offered to pay to either (1) build a no-reduced-speed-needed bypass or (2) offered to move the station off the main line in such a way as it didn't interrupt mainline service when their trains came into the station, most of those objections would vanish.

Be careful what you wish for.

If a train is on the main line, dispatchers know they have no choice but to keep it moving.

If they can move a train into a hole, there is a danger they will leave it there and let everything else overtake, which means punctuality goes ever further downhill.

It's OK somewhere like FEC where passenger trains have strong support. But I'd hate to think what some of the more lukewarm railroads could do.

 

[cirdan]

...Using that new little joggle they created by International Corporate Park Blvd? It's current condition is certainly no better than to accommodate construction equipment. Looks way too curvy. It didn't look like they prepped that construction junction to accommodate freight without a complete redo. Not saying that means they won't, but it doesn't seem to be part of the imminent plan.

I agree.

Not to mention the question of whether there are any significant freight flows wort pursuing here. You don't build tracks on the off chance that somebody will find a use for them.

My guess is this spur is provided purely for construction access and will be dismantled when construction is complete.

 

[jis]

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/...ll-off-production-line-california/5831384001/

 

[Anderson]

Be careful what you wish for.

If a train is on the main line, dispatchers know they have no choice but to keep it moving.

If they can move a train into a hole, there is a danger they will leave it there and let everything else overtake, which means punctuality goes ever further downhill.

It's OK somewhere like FEC where passenger trains have strong support. But I'd hate to think what some of the more lukewarm railroads could do.

Yes, but they already do this in places where it's the only train that can fit into a passing siding (because the intermodals are too long to go there)...or in places where they can just use a convenient siding. I don't see how this notably makes things worse; if anything, if the train is going into the hole for half an hour, I'd rather it be in a town where you could DoorDash some food to the train or step off to stretch your legs than in the middle of nowhere.

Also, more frequent passing sidings (if only by adding them in the form of a station siding) means that you can potentially reduce those wait times when the train does go into the hole.

 

[Anderson]

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/...ll-off-production-line-california/5831384001/

Fascinating that Brightline's trains are rolling off within a few days of VIA's first one. That's one busy production line...but it sounds like the orders are probably also in some sort of alternating order.

 

[Qapla]

Interesting Update Video

 

[cirdan]

Fascinating that Brightline's trains are rolling off within a few days of VIA's first one. That's one busy production line...but it sounds like the orders are probably also in some sort of alternating order.

I doubt that Siemens are building complete trains production-line style, but rather that individual cars and locomotives are being built each at their own pace on different berths, and finished cars are accumulating until there is sufficient equipment on site to call it a train and make a transfer viable.

I guess Brightline also prefers to have them delivered that way as there is not much they can do with individual cars coming in one by one, but a complete train can be used for testing or crew training or even as a spare set for use in passenger service on the operating segment.

And of course it also make better press to announce they have received a first full train rather than explaining they have received a car or a batch of cars.

 

[west point]

Although the cars are not identical has Brightline line determined if their cars do not have the lead potable water problem ?

 

[user 1215]

Does WPB have enough room to store new trainsets? What do they have now? 4? This makes 5? I suppose they can integrate it with the WPB-MIA route for a while, but they can't even test the route up to Cocoa for several more months.

 

[jis]

Although the cars are not identical has Brightline line determined if their cars do not have the lead potable water problem ?

Yes.

 

[user 1215]

Is that as in "the lead car" or is it a problem with "lead" in the potable water system?

 

[jis]

Does WPB have enough room to store new trainsets? What do they have now? 4? This makes 5? I suppose they can integrate it with the WPB-MIA route for a while, but they can't even test the route up to Cocoa for several more months.

They had 5 sets from the previous tranche. This tranche is another 5 sets with the same color set, so at the end they will have two sets of each color. The existing sets interiors are being upgraded to match the new sets' apparently.

At the end of delivery of this tranche they will have ten identical sets with options for adding upto five more cars per set over time.

I believe there is plenty of space to store ten 5 car sets in WPB since it is designed to home 5 ten car sets.

Speaking of testing there is no second track to be found at all around Port Malabar Road. I guess they will get there after taking care of stuff in Melbourne. Lot of second tracks to be laid yet.

 

[Palmland]

If Brightline does come to JAX, best station is to restore the old Jax Union Terminal as the station. It was discussed many times when we lived there but never happened. The head house nicely preserved as a convention center but extensive track work needed. It would require a back up move for any train going via Orlando but good head on connection if the Meteor continued south via FEC/Brightline. There was an Amtrak demo train that tested that in the early 2000’s. It’s downtown location provides good local transit options including the skyway system.

 

[user 1215]

If Brightline does come to JAX, best station is to restore the old Jax Union Terminal as the station. It was discussed many times when we lived there but never happened. The head house nicely preserved as a convention center but extensive track work needed. It would require a back up move for any train going via Orlando but good head on connection if the Meteor continued south via FEC/Brightline. There was an Amtrak demo train that tested that in the early 2000’s. It’s downtown location provides good local transit options including the skyway system.

It would pass there anyway if an ultimate goal would be to have a cross (or same) platform transfer to Amtrak at their JAX station. I remember the test train. Wish it happened then. But I would prefer Brightline to run to JAX rather than Amtrak.

 

[jis]

It would pass there anyway if an ultimate goal would be to have a cross (or same) platform transfer to Amtrak at their JAX station. I remember the test train. Wish it happened then. But I would prefer Brightline to run to JAX rather than Amtrak.

Brightline is unlikely to run on CSX rails, so it is a fair bet that they will build a station somewhere around the old station. There are are plans for such. As for whether Amtrak might or might not serve it, that is harder to predict than whether a hurricane will make landfall in JAX next year

 

[joelkfla]

No mention of a food service car, so I guess the rumors of one being added to the Orlando trains were false.

I noticed that the class of service is painted on the outside of the cars; I don't recall seeing that on the earlier trainsets (or I missed it if it was). And it looks like "Select" class has been renamed "Premium Service".

Hadn't Brightline said earlier that the new trainsets would be delivered directly to the new heavy maintenance facility at the airport, via the OUC lead? Perhaps future ones will be if the facility is ready and the connection tracked by then.

 

[jis]

No mention of a food service car, so I guess the rumors of one being added to the Orlando trains were false.

Sometime back they had said there will not be any food service car in the initial service to Orlando. The food service cars appear in the optioal additional five cars for each set which are to be added at some point in the future, I suppose if growth in traffic justifies such.

 

[Mailliw]

I wonder if Brightline will just stick with at seat service like VIA?

 

[jis]

I wonder if Brightline will just stick with at seat service like VIA?

That is their plan. It will be complementary in Premium Class and for a reasonable cost in Standard Class. It is also likely that a Service upgrade will be sold as a package to Standard Class passengers. They have not quite laid this out yet, but this is close to what was there before the COVID shutdown.

 

[Mailliw]

It helps that Brightline isn't locked into the same on-board staffing model as Amtrak.

 

[cirdan]

That is their plan. It will be complementary in Premium Class and for a reasonable cost in Standard Class. It is also likely that a Service upgrade will be sold as a package to Standard Class passengers. They have not quite laid this out yet, but this is close to what was there before the COVID shutdown.

Agreed, but there would still need to be some sort of kitchenette or servery to be able to store and heat food, no matter how compact and minimalistic. So without a car that has space set aside for that purpose they will only be serving cold snacks.