Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[chrsjrcj]

I’m honestly surprised that Polk County is so supportive of Brightline even going so far as to support Federal grants to get the line extended to Tampa.

 

[jis]

I’m honestly surprised that Polk County is so supportive of Brightline even going so far as to support Federal grants to get the line extended to Tampa.

Now only if they (Polk County) would wake up and take CSX's offer of use of trackage from Tampa to St. Pete for Commuter Service. The project (Tampa Commuter Rail) is mentioned in FDOIT's updated Rail Plan from 2018, but at that time no MPO owning it.

 

[Brian_tampa]

From my understanding of local politics, Polk has also been supportive of previous HSR efforts along I-4 as well. For them to get a stop in the county (most likely the Lakeland area) would be a big deal. Also, for me it would help as I live 25 minutes east of downtown Tampa for which the Tampa station would not help me as it adds too much time to any trip on Brightline to Orlando or S Florida. I can get to WPB from here in 3 hours or so - driving West to then go east and south is not good for many people in eastern Hillsborough County and the Lakeland areas. I once calculated about 750k people in my area (Eastern Hillsborough & Western Polk Counties) would benefit from a Lakeland station vs using Tampa.

As far as CSX selling trackage, that plan does not involve Polk County as far as I have heard. The lines north and west of Tampa are what CSX proposed selling a few years back. The A and S Lines east from Tampa are not for sale. I have read that CSX was considering selling the A Line west/south of Poinciana to Lakeland at one time for SunRail though.

Edit: the recent Intermodal terminal built south of Winter Haven has driven CSX's opposition to using the lines east of Tampa for commuter rail (and other additional passenger service). It requires the use of the A Line between Lakeland and Auburndale.

 

[MARC Rider]

The intersection where the accident happened:
View attachment 25421

As can clearly be seen - there are lights and cross arms - the car turned onto the tracks instead of the road. This was NOT the fault of Brightline

If the gate was down, how did she get past it on to the tracks?

 

[joelkfla]

If the gate was down, how did she get past it on to the tracks?

I would think she turned onto the tracks before the gates were down and was unable to get the car off. As we've seen so often on the Asheville railcam, once a car is off the crossing and onto the tracks, it's pretty difficult to get back up on the pavement without some outside help.

 

[jruff001]

Now only if they (Polk County) would wake up and take CSX's offer of use of trackage from Tampa to St. Pete for Commuter Service. The project (Tampa Commuter Rail) is mentioned in FDOIT's updated Rail Plan from 2018, but at that time no MPO owning it.

Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but why would Polk County have anything to do with a Tampa to St Pete route (which would be in Hillsborough and Pinellas Counties and go nowhere near Polk)?

 

[jis]

Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but why would Polk County have anything to do with a Tampa to St Pete route (which would be in Hillsborough and Pinellas Counties and go nowhere near Polk)?

You’re right. My mistake

If anything Polk would perhaps be involved in a future Tampa - Fort Meyers service if it follows currently available ROWs

 

[cirdan]

Maybe advanced age should come with probation licenses and annual retesting instead of a blind presumption of immortal driving prowess.

In terms of safety I am 100% with you.

Sadly there is another problem though. Take older people's cars away and they lose their independence and social contacts, which in many cases may be all they have.

What is really needed is decent public transit so they have an alternative. Or failing that at least socially priced taxi services.

 

[Brian_tampa]

You’re right. My mistake

If anything Polk would perhaps be involved in a future Tampa - Fort Meyers service if it follows currently available ROWs

I remember a spokesman for the local FDOT district here telling me (this was 3 or 4 years ago) that they were going to maintain a transit "envelope" in the median of I75 in Hillsborough and Manatee Counties. This was in response to a question I had sent to them regarding future HOV/Lexus lanes that FDOT is planning for along I75 in 10-15+ years time. I don't recall if Sarasota County was included.

 

[Qapla]

Maybe advanced age should come with probation licenses and annual retesting instead of a blind presumption of immortal driving prowess.

In terms of safety I am 100% with you.

Making blanket statements or presumptions is a little much. Exactly what is "advanced age"? My brother is 74 (will turn 75 in a couple months) and drives a box truck for a living without any accidents or near misses.

I know many others in the late 60's - early 80's that drive just fine as well as knowing some who are under 50 I would not ride with. I'm not sure age alone should be the defining factor in retesting drivers.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

In terms of safety I am 100% with you. Sadly there is another problem though. Take older people's cars away and they lose their independence and social contacts, which in many cases may be all they have. What is really needed is decent public transit so they have an alternative. Or failing that at least socially priced taxi services.

Where I live people who cannot drive can take a bus. Passengers unable to navigate a bus can take a shuttle. It's not idea but if that's not what they wanted in old age they should have supported some other solution during their productive years.

Making blanket statements or presumptions is a little much. Exactly what is "advanced age"? My brother is 74 (will turn 75 in a couple months) and drives a box truck for a living without any accidents or near misses.

If he's as safe as you say he'd still have a license under my proposal. It's not like an FAA commercial license that simply expires at age 65.

I know many others in the late 60's - early 80's that drive just fine as well as knowing some who are under 50 I would not ride with. I'm not sure age alone should be the defining factor in retesting drivers.

I agree and if it were up to me driving licenses would be harder to earn and keep for everyone.

 

[MARC Rider]

I know many others in the late 60's - early 80's that drive just fine..

Hi! that's me!! And I do have the sense to stop a grade crossings when the lights are flashing and the arms are down.

 

[UserNameRequired]

…
If he's as safe as you say he'd still have a license under my proposal. It's not like an FAA commercial license that simply expires at age 65.
…

Noting you are only restricted to not operating Part 121 at age 65 and after. Pilot certificates have no expiration date whether Private, Commercial or ATP! You no longer have Currency if you don’t have a current medical and a flight review. This is how they get you. Once you are a pilot, you are a pilot for life.

 

[user 1215]

Noting you are only restricted to not operating Part 121 at age 65 and after. Pilot certificates have no expiration date whether Private, Commercial or ATP! You no longer have Currency if you don’t have a current medical and a flight review. This is how they get you. Once you are a pilot, you are a pilot for life.

Very true. That's how they got Bob Hoover. Sad. I'm not even 50 and lost my medical because of the diabetes meds I'm taking. Working to get that reversed now.

 

[neroden]

Not necessarily. In Orlando, stations that are shared by Amtrak & SunRail have 2 tracks with end-to-end side platforms. At the Orlando & Kissimmee stations, the slightly higher SunRail platforms were built north of the low-level Amtrak platforms.

I've seen a similar arrangement on YouTube where stations are shared by commuter trains and light rail; I think it was in the Hague.

See also Cleveland Red/Green/Blue lines at several stations. Height difference is huge: Green/Blue are low-floor, Red is high-floor

 

[cirdan]

.

I know many others in the late 60's - early 80's that drive just fine as well as knowing some who are under 50 I would not ride with. I'm not sure age alone should be the defining factor in retesting drivers.

my dad is 83 and has afaik not been in any accident for 30 years and even then it was the other driver who was at fault

 

[cirdan]

. It's not idea but if that's not what they wanted in old age they should have supported some other solution during their productive years.

you can’t blame individuals for stupid things the government did.

 

[Qapla]

Brightline Orlando Line Construction Part 3: State Road 520 to Cocoa - Oct/Nov 2021

 

[Bob Dylan]

Very true. That's how they got Bob Hoover. Sad. I'm not even 50 and lost my medical because of the diabetes meds I'm taking. Working to get that reversed now.

I couldn't pass my Medical due to Diabetes @ age 50, sure miss flying the plane myself!

 

[neroden]

Getting back to this...

The issue here is parking: If you ran buses from Disney Springs to each of the parks, I think you can guarantee that you'd have a few thousand people willing to put up with a 20-minute bus transfer to save $20+ on parking. For Magic Kingdom, there's a "hotfix" in the form of the Monorail Resorts (and by extension, this sort-of applies to Epcot).

The issue isn't style, it's expense. For various-and-sundry reasons, the cost of building these gadgetbahns has generally exceeded the rate of inflation by a substantial amount. I suspect that if you could do something for $20-25m/mile, Disney might go for it. Up at $75-100+ million per mile, it gets trickier to justify.

Oh, Walt had no sense of cost control. He was totally going for stuff which was not reasonably priced or financially justifiable. Style first!

Also, extending service to anywhere with free parking raises the issue of folks circumventing theme park parking prices...and Disney Springs needs free parking to work.

Dammit parking! I see the issue: Disney's profit structure is based on parking prices, and so extending attractive mass transit to anywhere with free parking is a problem.

Maybe Disney shouldn't have asked for the Disney station to be at Disney Springs? They could have asked Brightline to put the station at ESPN Wide World of Sports, or even EPCOT with a slightly longer route.

Disney Inc. chose Disney Springs, which actually perplexes me a little -- what business model do they have in their heads here? With a Disney Springs station, they're also at risk of having people use Disney Springs as a free park-and-ride for the Orlando airport! The parking issue is serious.

 

[neroden]

Brightline Orlando Line Construction Part 3: State Road 520 to Cocoa - Oct/Nov 2021

Explicit confirmation that the SR-520 bridge is the critical path (last to be completed) on the Orlando Extension. Econlockhatchee River is the only other bridge on the new-build section of line where the piers still seem to need significant work, though he didn't get a good photo of it.

The bridges on the existing line still look likely to be completed even later than the SR-520 bridge.

My previous attempt, some months ago, to assess what was taking the longest:

I have ordered this list from most likely to least likely to be on the critical path:

Eau Gallie River bridge in Melbourne -- construction trestle barely started (two spans), pilings for first new track not started (trestle must be finished first)

Turkey Creek bridge in Palm Bay -- temporary construction trestle not even started as of end of May (but this is a short bridge... so should be quicker than Eau Gallie)

Sebastian River bridge in Sebastian -- construction trestle present, about half of pilings for first new track in place

SR 520 bridge on extension to Orlando -- still working on pilings, but most are at least partway in

Crane Creek Bridge in Melbourne -- piers for one track are done

Loxahatchee River Bridge in Jupiter -- old piers will be reused

The SR-520 bridge is moving very slowly and may take a while. I still expect the whole Orlando Extension will be done significantly before the Eau Gallie River bridge; it'll be a race between the bridges to see which ones are done last. Hopefully we'll get some more updates soon, but I do wonder whether Brightline will start running trains before all the bridges on the existing line are finished; there might be strong incentives to do so.

 

[joelkfla]

Disney Inc. chose Disney Springs, which actually perplexes me a little -- what business model do they have in their heads here? With a Disney Springs station, they're also at risk of having people use Disney Springs as a free park-and-ride for the Orlando airport! The parking issue is serious.

Overnight parking is prohibited at the DS garages. They might give you one night grace to accommodate the Guests who got drunk and wisely chose not to drive back to their hotel, but I think your car will be gone the 2nd night.

 

[user 1215]

Oh, Walt had no sense of cost control. He was totally going for stuff which was not reasonably priced or financially justifiable. Style first!

For every Walt, there's a Roy. For every dreamer, a realist. It's not a whole lot different now - except that the bean counters are going from making dreams financially feasible to making dreams reach their maximum ROI.

Disney Inc. chose Disney Springs, which actually perplexes me a little -- what business model do they have in their heads here? With a Disney Springs station, they're also at risk of having people use Disney Springs as a free park-and-ride for the Orlando airport! The parking issue is serious.

Joel is right - what possible incentive would one have to park and ride to MCO from Disney Springs? They are not a 24/7 operation and would likely tow anything that seems abandoned for more than a day. You can already park there and get to the parks for free, but it takes a packed bus to a packed resort then another packed bus to the park. No single rides from DS to any park. So, not likely anyone would have any incentive for any reason to keep car there past, say 3 or 4 AM.

 

[cirdan]

Getting back to this...



Oh, Walt had no sense of cost control. He was totally going for stuff which was not reasonably priced or financially justifiable. Style first!


Dammit parking! I see the issue: Disney's profit structure is based on parking prices, and so extending attractive mass transit to anywhere with free parking is a problem.

Maybe Disney shouldn't have asked for the Disney station to be at Disney Springs? They could have asked Brightline to put the station at ESPN Wide World of Sports, or even EPCOT with a slightly longer route.

Disney Inc. chose Disney Springs, which actually perplexes me a little -- what business model do they have in their heads here? With a Disney Springs station, they're also at risk of having people use Disney Springs as a free park-and-ride for the Orlando airport! The parking issue is serious.

The parking may be expensive from an individual perspective but I doubt it is super lucrative for Disney . They have bigger fish to fry . If the parking income was lost it might be a dent in their budget but not a life threatening one . The increased number of visitors that bright line can bring probably more than offsets that

 

[neroden]

Overnight parking is prohibited at the DS garages. They might give you one night grace to accommodate the Guests who got drunk and wisely chose not to drive back to their hotel, but I think your car will be gone the 2nd night.

Ah, thanks for explaining!