Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[jis]

Remember, a diesel locomotive is basically an electric locomotive that is carrying the source of the electricity on its back. The question really gets down to weight per axle. Generally electric locomotives, in addition to carrying the equipment to convert 25kV AC to motor appropriate current have weight added to provide for effective adhesion. If carrying the diesel engine makes the whole thing too heavy, then the issue is to lighten the power plant or to have more axles. So, to say that an engine is speed limited solely because it is diesel powered is actually an error in concept.

More so when you are doing an articulated train set and are able to use what amounts to tenders to spread out the weight and of course potentially powered axles too.

 

[joelkfla]

Yup. The details will take a while to work themselves out anyway. Do we even know exactly what route will finally get selected?

Nope -- no news for months.

 

[Scott Orlando]

https://www.miamitodaynews.com/2022/03/29/tri-rail-plans-arrival-in-downtown-miami-by-nov-1/

 

[Palmland]

Looks like politics is affecting Brightline plans. Brightline wanted a more direct and less costly route from MCO to Disney. The infrastructure money was irresistible to those who want to route it via International Drive , Universal, and the Convention Center. This afternoon’s Orlando Sentinel (digital) had this article (paywall):

“ Brightline’s quest for passenger rail from Orlando’s airport to Disney World and Tampa is evolving toward a regional push to build a corridor for SunRail commuter trains from the airport to SunRail’s current north-south tracks, the Orange County Convention Center and south International Drive.
“I’m calling this the ‘jobs train,’” said Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer, who hosted dozens of private meetings in recent months between Universal Studios, Brightline and others to resolve what had been a deadlock over the route from the airport across southwest Orange County.
Under a vision emerging from those meetings, Brightline would lease rights to use that east-west SunRail corridor and would build its own tracks from Disney to Tampa.”

But if Sunrail service can be improved I’m all for it. Seems a good use for infrastructure dollars as long as Brightline can continue to Tampa from
Disney without more hurdles. May actually be a good compromise.

 

[Scott Orlando]

https://floridapolitics.com/archive...ju1LfgiE_doYH5coURp4JVWITi3f1HIgib6SjNcWm5afI

 

[joelkfla]

IMHO, this puts a WDW station up in the air. It sounds like Disney has not bought into the new plan, and may not have even been involved in the meetings. In past proposals, Disney refused to participate in any route that would stop at I-Drive as well as WDW.

What's more, the Sentinel article says, "The Sunshine Corridor Program calls for a SunRail schedule of a train every 15 minutes between the airport and south I-Drive." Kind of turns a cold shoulder to Disney.

 

[jis]

IMHO, this puts a WDW station up in the air. It sounds like Disney has not bought into the new plan, and may not have even been involved in the meetings. In past proposals, Disney refused to participate in any route that would stop at I-Drive as well as WDW.

What's more, the Sentinel article says, "The Sunshine Corridor Program calls for a SunRail schedule of a train every 15 minutes between the airport and south I-Drive." Kind of turns a cold shoulder to Disney.

But as it turns out, this plan is more aligned with the original corridors planned for access to the airport. Originally they talked about every possible gadget bahn for the Airport I-Drive segment. Given the availability of funding this one takes care of that corridor. It would be interesting to see if Disney will completely opt out of having a station if this plan proceeds. That would be unfortunate but I would not shed a tear over it. They are big boys and should know what is best for themselves.

 

[neroden]

Looks like politics is affecting Brightline plans. Brightline wanted a more direct and less costly route from MCO to Disney. The infrastructure money was irresistible to those who want to route it via International Drive , Universal, and the Convention Center. This afternoon’s Orlando Sentinel (digital) had this article (paywall):

“ Brightline’s quest for passenger rail from Orlando’s airport to Disney World and Tampa is evolving toward a regional push to build a corridor for SunRail commuter trains from the airport to SunRail’s current north-south tracks, the Orange County Convention Center and south International Drive.
“I’m calling this the ‘jobs train,’” said Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer, who hosted dozens of private meetings in recent months between Universal Studios, Brightline and others to resolve what had been a deadlock over the route from the airport across southwest Orange County.
Under a vision emerging from those meetings, Brightline would lease rights to use that east-west SunRail corridor and would build its own tracks from Disney to Tampa.”

But if Sunrail service can be improved I’m all for it. Seems a good use for infrastructure dollars as long as Brightline can continue to Tampa from
Disney without more hurdles. May actually be a good compromise.

Brightline's position has ALWAYS been that they're happy with the International Drive route if someone else will pay for it. So, this seems fine, *provided SunRail actually pays for and builds the east-west route*.

From my point of view, it gets me to the theme parks on International Drive (since there is a decent bus service up and down International Drive, and although I get motion-sick on buses, a mile or two is not a big deal).

The deal with Disney may end up being that Brightline trains run from the airport to Disney nonstop, and only Sunrail trains stop at the International Drive station, or something like that. That would probably satisfy Disney's hatred of competitors. Won't cause any problems for those of us who don't mind changing trains! It would probably be smarter for Disney to run special Disney-themed trains as shuttles to the Orlando Airport but they don't seem that smart.

 

[jis]

Brightline's position has ALWAYS been that they're happy with the International Drive route if someone else will pay for it. So, this seems fine, *provided SunRail actually pays for and builds the east-west route*

Indeed. This is all about trying to tap into the Infrastructure Funds from the feds, and will proceed only if such becomes available. SunRail has no funds of its own. The capital is all funded through federal grants, and for operating budget there is continuous belly aching among the counties and FDOT.

If there is no federal funds, none of this will happen, and Brightline will revert to whatever they were going to fund themselves. Perish the though of FDOT coming up with the whole amount. Won't happen. Of course, the fat cats on I-Drive and at Universal could change that by putting some money where their mouth is too! But it looks like their main interest is to find a trough in which they can sink their snouts to suck enough funds thus sparing their own pockets.

 

[neroden]

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but *this* is why I live in the city I live in. If we can't get federal or state funding, we *will actually just pay for it ourselves*. It's nice to live in a city which does that.

 

[cirdan]

Brightline's position has ALWAYS been that they're happy with the International Drive route if someone else will pay for it. So, this seems fine, *provided SunRail actually pays for and builds the east-west route*.

From my point of view, it gets me to the theme parks on International Drive (since there is a decent bus service up and down International Drive, and although I get motion-sick on buses, a mile or two is not a big deal).

The deal with Disney may end up being that Brightline trains run from the airport to Disney nonstop, and only Sunrail trains stop at the International Drive station, or something like that. That would probably satisfy Disney's hatred of competitors. Won't cause any problems for those of us who don't mind changing trains! It would probably be smarter for Disney to run special Disney-themed trains as shuttles to the Orlando Airport but they don't seem that smart.

To me it seems that if Disney cannot offer a one seat ride between the airport and hotels / resorts / attractions, but is offering a higher(er) speed train ride over a ridiculously short distance to an exchange terminal in the middle of nowhere with onward transfer by buses or ride shares, that's not really a big selling point versus a direct bus ride from the airport.

I don't really see what's in it for Disney, and don't believe they will be putting any big money on the table for something that is of only marginal benefit to them.

Much as I dislike Gadgetbahns, this is actually a situation where having a Gadgetbahn circulator built and controlled by Disney that connects all the hotels / resorts / attractions and then goes on the airport seems the most sensible solution.

 

[joelkfla]

Much as I dislike Gadgetbahns, this is actually a situation where having a Gadgetbahn circulator built and controlled by Disney that connects all the hotels / resorts / attractions and then goes on the airport seems the most sensible solution.

That would be highly unlikely to get past Disney's budget cutters. Disney got out of the airport transportation business as of the beginning of this year, and for now seems content to leave it to others, except possibly for their high cost and likely high profit car service which may resume when they can get enough drivers.

It's unknown, but I think Brightline was the one who approached Disney with the proposal for a WDW station, and it was to carry passengers to WDW from South FL & Tampa, not from the airport.

But if SunRail now wants to provide direct service between the airport and Universal's new park, that gives Universal a leg up, and introduces a new wrinkle into Disney's strategizing.

 

[user 1215]

Interestingly, Disney Springs was originally designed to be a residential and retail area with a big mutli-modal transit center. Then they discovered that residents of Lake Buena Vista can vote in Lake Buena Vista, threatening the special status with the State (which doesn't seem to be a big deal with the high end homes they build on property and the proposed "low income" housing for employees).

There should have been a massive transit infrastructure installed 25 years ago.

 

[joelkfla]

Interestingly, Disney Springs was originally designed to be a residential and retail area with a big mutli-modal transit center. Then they discovered that residents of Lake Buena Vista can vote in Lake Buena Vista, threatening the special status with the State (which doesn't seem to be a big deal with the high end homes they build on property and the proposed "low income" housing for employees).

There should have been a massive transit infrastructure installed 25 years ago.

Golden Oak was deannexed from Lake Buena Vista.

My understanding is that the low-income housing is proposed to be rental units. I don't know whether that poses the same issue, but if it does, it will be deannexed as well. The location is on the western edge of Disney property,

 

[MARC Rider]

Much as I dislike Gadgetbahns, this is actually a situation where having a Gadgetbahn circulator built and controlled by Disney that connects all the hotels / resorts / attractions and then goes on the airport seems the most sensible solution.

Why build a gadgetbahn when they can just build a circulator using standard railroad technology? In fact, I suppose they could just build a spur line off the Brightline or Sun Rail route and make arrangements to run trains directly into the Disney properties.

 

[cirdan]

Why build a gadgetbahn when they can just build a circulator using standard railroad technology? In fact, I suppose they could just build a spur line off the Brightline or Sun Rail route and make arrangements to run trains directly into the Disney properties.

One would have to run the figures and decide what type of gadgetbahn exactly we are comparing conventional rail to, and also expected ridership. But my impression from many Orlando area hotel complexes etc is that there aren't exactly oodles of space to build a rail alignment onto the property. But maybe a gadgetbahn that is suspended and can take tight corners can always be accomodated somehow. That and Disney's apparent willingness to re-invent the wheel every time they build a train or rail connection of some sort anywhere.

 

[joelkfla]

That and Disney's apparent willingness to re-invent the wheel every time they build a train or rail connection of some sort anywhere.

That was Walt's Disney. Walt was a train lover, a futurist, and a risk taker.

Wall Street's Disney is conservative, bottom line focused, and has no particular love of rail transit. They did install the Skyliner aerial gondola transit system a few years ago, but it was not the first system of its type, not rail-based, and probably less expensive than a rail-based alternative like LRT.

 

[jis]

Representative Darren Soto tweeted this afternoon that a deal had been reached to connect workers and tourists from the SunRail to the airport, Walt Disney World, Universal Orlando Resort, Sea World, I-Drive, and the Brightline to Tampa.

Full article at SunRail and Brightline Deal Reached for Connecting Central Florida Attractions and Orlando International Airport - WDW News Today

 

[user 1215]

This is a bit of a shocker. Passenger train speeds from Martin County through Brevard county were released by Brightline. I really thought it was going to be 79 to Cocoa, then 110-125 from Cocoa to Orlando.

Full disclosure - I don't really see a solid chain of custody to the source data, but this is what treasurecoast.com is sharing.

Brightline releases train speeds (treasurecoast.com)

 

[jis]

This is a bit of a shocker. Passenger train speeds from Martin County through Brevard county were released by Brightline. I really thought it was going to be 79 to Cocoa, then 110-125 from Cocoa to Orlando.

Full disclosure - I don't really see a solid chain of custody to the source data, but this is what treasurecoast.com is sharing.

Brightline releases train speeds (treasurecoast.com)

View attachment 28062

It has been known for a long time that max speed will be 110mph between WPB and Cocoa.

 

[user 1215]

It has been known for a long time that max speed will be 110mph between WPB and Cocoa.

OK. I focused on the 125 from Cocoa to MCO that I missed 110 from WPB to Cocoa. Didn't think that the grade crossings they were putting in seemed suitable for 110 MPH. I really worry about New Haven and any other place where a lot of drunk people are close to the tracks.

 

[jis]

Personally I think they ought to fence much more of the ROW through populated areas, somewhat like NEC is. I think they will eventually do it but after a spate of pedestrian trespasser incidents. But who knows? Anyhow, the issue will get forced by events I think.

 

[joelkfla]

OK. I focused on the 125 from Cocoa to MCO that I missed 110 from WPB to Cocoa. Didn't think that the grade crossings they were putting in seemed suitable for 110 MPH. I really worry about New Haven and any other place where a lot of drunk people are close to the tracks.

I thought they were putting in full quad gates with overhead warning lights, no?

I think the biggest problem is drivers entering a crossing when there's a red light on the other side and they don't have space to clear the tracks. But that's a problem regardless of train speed, as it has been here in Orlando for the relatively slow moving SunRail.

 

[user 1215]

I thought they were putting in full quad gates with overhead warning lights, no?

I think the biggest problem is drivers entering a crossing when there's a red light on the other side and they don't have space to clear the tracks. But that's a problem regardless of train speed, as it has been here in Orlando for the relatively slow moving SunRail.

They are. But none of the cross-lane barriers. Just seems a bit to easy (particularly for pedestrians) to wander into. The crossing where there are sidewalks have pedestrian gates, but again, seem lightweight vs consequences.

 

[joelkfla]

They are. But none of the cross-lane barriers. Just seems a bit to easy (particularly for pedestrians) to wander into. The crossing where there are sidewalks have pedestrian gates, but again, seem lightweight vs consequences.

I don't think we should hold up progress or spend millions of dollars to protect drivers who are stupid and determined enough to try to beat the gate coming down on the opposing traffic lanes in the few seconds delay after the gate on the proper lanes drops. Their actions are clearly willful and reckless.

If the communities along the line want quiet zones, they may have to install mitigating measures at their own expense if the safety survey determines the risk is great enough.