Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[joelkfla]

Doesn't 125-160 operation require Tier II certification? Tier III is for 160-220mph I think. But Brightline must be aware of a somewhat cost effective path to get the trainsets certified for 150mph operation. That is why they must know the potential maximum speed capabilities of the trainsets and what is required to get them to run at the higher speed. What would prevent them from running at 150 MAS between Orlando and Cocoa? That section is actually straighter for a longer distance than any section along I-4.

The lady at the meeting actually said they were "looking at opportunities" to run at 150mph. That's a very nebulous statement. It may be something they aspire to but is just in the investigational phase.

 

[jis]

Doesn't 125-160 operation require Tier II certification? Tier III is for 160-220mph I think. But Brightline must be aware of a somewhat cost effective path to get the trainsets certified for 150mph operation. That is why they must know the potential maximum speed capabilities of the trainsets and what is required to get them to run at the higher speed. What would prevent them from running at 150 MAS between Orlando and Cocoa? That section is actually straighter for a longer distance than any section along I-4.

Tire II is history. It did not have CEM done properly, hence the tanks that we got for Acela Is. Nobody in their right mind will build another Tier II anything. Roughly speaking the old 800 Klb/1 Mlb buff strength now applies to the safety cage within the car and not the entire carbody. The carbody is allowed to collapse in places designed for such, to absorb energy while preserving the safety cage undeformed, and softening the blow inside considerably by reducing the overall deceleration experienced for things inside the safety cage.

The new standard for that is Tier III. It is basically an adaptation of European HSR construction standard. The Acela 21s are Tier III, not Tier II.

The Venture cars are already structurally capable of being upgraded to Tier III relatively easily, if need be, apparently.

 

[west point]

one thought. Maybe bright line will work out some kind of adaptation of the proposed Amtrak power car arrangement? Doubt it but who knows?

 

[McIntyre2K7]

In a news report out of Orlando this evening, the spokeswoman for Brightline was saying that trains might reach 150 mph on certain straightaway sections of the I-4 ROW. This was during a presentation given by Brightline to the local Hillsborough County Transportation and Planning Organization on this past Tuesday Wednesday morning here. Maybe the trains can run at 150mph with two Chargers, but I wonder about the PTC system capabilities. Florida is flat and there are stretches of I-4 that are straight and long enough to accommodate these speeds.

Will Brightline add a Lakeland Station? I know the plans from the one from the 2000's had a Lakeland Stop? I know this is a private company and I can see them just bypassing Lakeland all together.


Below is a link to a map I created with a Brightline route from Orlando to Tampa with some added stops.

Disney
Lakeland Intermodal Center (connection with SunRail)
Florida Fairgrounds/Seminole Hard Rock Hotel & Casino (Just in Case the Tampa Bay Rays do Move to the Florida State Fairgrounds.
Two Downtown Tampa options for the stations. One is to the east of Tampa Union Station and one is west of the Station. The one to the east of Tampa Union Station also has a brand new connection with the TECO Streetcar.
For SunRail I have new stations in Haines City, Auburndale and Lakeland. For SunRail, I know they are questioning funding when the counties take it over in 2024? Is it possible for the 4 counties to just hand it over to Amtrak and have Amtrak establish the Tampa to Jacksonville route?

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1Vht-UXbFqKvTPCOfjP2u_OwVygaBIfv5&usp=sharing

 

[joelkfla]

Will Brightline add a Lakeland Station? I know the plans from the one from the 2000's had a Lakeland Stop? I know this is a private company and I can see them just bypassing Lakeland all together.


Below is a link to a map I created with a Brightline route from Orlando to Tampa with some added stops.

Disney
Lakeland Intermodal Center (connection with SunRail)
Florida Fairgrounds/Seminole Hard Rock Hotel & Casino (Just in Case the Tampa Bay Rays do Move to the Florida State Fairgrounds.
Two Downtown Tampa options for the stations. One is to the east of Tampa Union Station and one is west of the Station. The one to the east of Tampa Union Station also has a brand new connection with the TECO Streetcar.
For SunRail I have new stations in Haines City, Auburndale and Lakeland. For SunRail, I know they are questioning funding when the counties take it over in 2024? Is it possible for the 4 counties to just hand it over to Amtrak and have Amtrak establish the Tampa to Jacksonville route?

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1Vht-UXbFqKvTPCOfjP2u_OwVygaBIfv5&usp=sharing

Lakeland is not in the current plans. They are planning to run down the median of I-4. I don't know whether there would be enough room to build an infill station within or over the median in the future. Diverting off of I-4 would require additional elevated tracks and be expensive. Either option would also likely require approval from FL DOT.

 

[Scott Orlando]

It interesting that BL doesn’t talk about Lakeland anymore. If I recall correctly, they were in the original plan but not any more. As Joelkfla said, “where do you put the station”. Unless there is a wide spot in the median- which there are a few- it wont work. In addition, its cost ineffective to deviate. And we know they want to own and develop land near stations.

Polk County is one of the fastest growing areas in Florida. But I believe they are “meh, maybe later” like Cocoa and Stuart.

 

[cirdan]

I know... that's why I am a bit confused about this statement. I've always thought the Chargers had a maximum speed of 125mph. I understand all of the mechanical and engineering design reasons why they should not be able to run faster than 125mph. But yet we have this video with Brightline saying they are exploring the idea of running at 150mph. This doesn't square with all I have known so far.

Maybe they are talking about the next generation of equipment.

As ridership increases and the system grows (to Disney, Tampa etc) many more trains will be needed and it could well be they are considering a different train type, maybe cascading the present trains to stopping services while the new trains run the super express services.

Just a wild guess of course.

 

[cirdan]

one thought. Maybe bright line will work out some kind of adaptation of the proposed Amtrak power car arrangement? Doubt it but who knows?

I doubt that Brightline has the in-house expertise to actually make any major technical adaptations, let alone develop a new train.

But I am sure several of the major train manufacturers would be happy to propose the appropriate technology to them.

 

[west point]

Does anyone have comparison of ALC-44s and ACS-64s? If running gear is same for both then it might be possible to run ALCs at 150. That is trucks, wheels, traction motors and maybe frame. Maybe frame is different?

 

[cirdan]

Does anyone have comparison of ALC-44s and ACS-64s? If running gear is same for both then it might be possible to run ALCs at 150. That is trucks, wheels, traction motors and maybe frame. Maybe frame is different?

I don't think the frame should be the problem but operational dynamics of the trucks plus also weight.

There has as far as I know never been a commercial diesel locomotive designed for more than 125mph, and even speed records stop in the mid 140s. So a 150mph diesel locomotive would be breaking new ground. The challenge would be to extract more power without adding weight or pushing costs up excessively.

 

[jis]

The path between "looking at opportunities" and actually doing it is often strewn with all kinds of obstacles. So at present my thinking is that the intention is noble, but wait till the proverbial fat lady sings.

 

[cirdan]

The path between "looking at opportunities" and actually doing it is often strewn with all kinds of obstacles. So at present my thinking is that the intention is noble, but wait till the proverbial fat lady sings.

ROI is also a big factor.

150mph trains will be considerably more costly, both in purchase and in maintenance, than 125mph trains.

If that extra speed just shaves a minute off the schedule here and two minutes there, I don't think its worth it. If they can translate the extra speed into notable time savings, which would require longer stretches of continuous speed running, there might just possibly be a different argument.

I very much doubt it though.

Law of diminishing returns and all that.

 

[jis]

ROI is also a big factor.

150mph trains will be considerably more costly, both in purchase and in maintenance, than 125mph trains.

If that extra speed just shaves a minute off the schedule here and two minutes there, I don't think its worth it. If they can translate the extra speed into notable time savings, which would require longer stretches of continuous speed running, there might just possibly be a different argument.

I very much doubt it though.

Law of diminishing returns and all that.

I completely agree with you.

 

[McIntyre2K7]

It interesting that BL doesn’t talk about Lakeland anymore. If I recall correctly, they were in the original plan but not any more. As Joelkfla said, “where do you put the station”. Unless there is a wide spot in the median- which there are a few- it wont work. In addition, its cost ineffective to deviate. And we know they want to own and develop land near stations.

Polk County is one of the fastest growing areas in Florida. But I believe they are “meh, maybe later” like Cocoa and Stuart.

I mean there's a wide section of the median at I-4 and US Highway 98. There's open land as well so they can also develop it as well. I mean this is probably the best area where this would probably work in Lakeland. My first option I had in a earlier post would not work as I went back to check and the medians might not be wide enough.

 

[Brian_tampa]

I mean there's a wide section of the median at I-4 and US Highway 98. There's open land as well so they can also develop it as well. I mean this is probably the best area where this would probably work in Lakeland. My first option I had in a earlier post would not work as I went back to check and the medians might not be wide enough.

Several years ago I did a quick survey of census data for the eastern Hillsborough (Tampa) and western Polk (Lakeland) Counties areas. I estimated there were about 600k people within 20 miles or a 30-40 minute drive of a station located at I-4 and US98 as depicted above. The 30 minutes is critical for this part of Florida. If the drive to the closest station is more than 30 minutes away, it is quicker for people living in these areas to get to any place by car that has a Brightline station such as those cities in south Florida.

The Tampa station location for us is such that it adds 20-60 minutes drive time plus additional time on the train (20 minutes from Tampa to the Lakeland station location) to go back east passing our homes. The Orlando station is very inconvenient even more so due to the horrendous traffic on I-4 as well as the frequent crashes.

I wrote letters to my contacts at Brightline explaining how they are overlooking this market. They promised to keep Lakeland on the list of future station sites.

Also, FDOT and Brightline are working together to keep any wide areas in the median intact for a station site near Lakeland over the next decade's worth of highway projects along I-4.

 

[west point]

Railway age article of bridge at Juipter. We expect the roaming railfan to document this exclusive.
Watch: Crews prepare to tackle complex drawbridge project on Brightline's Orlando route - Railway Track and Structures (rtands.com)

 

[jis]

Article about the WDW station...

https://www.disneyfoodblog.com/2022...speed-train-station-planned-for-disney-world/

 

[joelkfla]

Article about the WDW station...

https://www.disneyfoodblog.com/2022...speed-train-station-planned-for-disney-world/

There is one outright error: the orange area on that map is not the possible locations for a station, it's the envelope of possible routings for the approach to WDW.

While it does discuss some issues, the rest of the article is mostly speculation.

DFBlog does a great job on covering food and strategies for visiting WDW, but this feels like filler to meet a deadline.

 

[cirdan]

The article says:

"Brightline is a train company that has trains in both Florida and California. "

because some of the equipment has not yet been delivered and is still with Siemens in Sacramento?



or if its Brightline West they are thinking of, it's hardly accurate to describe the present status of that as "having trains in California"

 

[user 1215]

Honestly not a bad article. Looks like they are honest in the information they offer - stating they don't have an answer when they don't. Nothing new to those of us here (ie: routing, how to deal with baggage, etc), but it's an accurate "preview" of future operations.

What I noticed to be inaccurate was their usage of the term "High Speed". Even though they acknowledged that the speed between MCO and DS will likely be slower than HSR, they are wrong to imply that the rest of the route is. Irrelevant to MCO, my peeve is their invocation of the Narita Express to Tokyo, then the Keiyo line to Maihama (my high school "home station") is not provided by Disney and only one of a plethora of ways to get to the park from the Airport. Narita is also a cool hour away vs 20 minutes in Orlando. But there are faster (and much cheaper) ways by rail than what was in the article.

Side note (and I think I've brought this up years ago), there was actually a "Shuttle Maihama" that actually ran direct from Tokyo to Maihama for no additional express fee. It ran most my Senior year and so happened to match perfectly with my commute home.



It had unique seating in each of the three cars - one was traditional club seating (blue), one had bench seating the entire length of the car all facing the bay (red; other side of the train was pretty much high rise apartments). I forgot what the third car was like (yellow).

 

[joelkfla]

Honestly not a bad article. Looks like they are honest in the information they offer - stating they don't have an answer when they don't. Nothing new to those of us here (ie: routing, how to deal with baggage, etc), but it's an accurate "preview" of future operations.

What I noticed to be inaccurate was their usage of the term "High Speed". Even though they acknowledged that the speed between MCO and DS will likely be slower than HSR, they are wrong to imply that the rest of the route is. Irrelevant to MCO, my peeve is their invocation of the Narita Express to Tokyo, then the Keiyo line to Maihama (my high school "home station") is not provided by Disney and only one of a plethora of ways to get to the park from the Airport. Narita is also a cool hour away vs 20 minutes in Orlando. But there are faster (and much cheaper) ways by rail than what was in the article.

Side note (and I think I've brought this up years ago), there was actually a "Shuttle Maihama" that actually ran direct from Tokyo to Maihama for no additional express fee. It ran most my Senior year and so happened to match perfectly with my commute home.

View attachment 27669

It had unique seating in each of the three cars - one was traditional club seating (blue), one had bench seating the entire length of the car all facing the bay (red; other side of the train was pretty much high rise apartments). I forgot what the third car was like (yellow).

The definition of HSR is purely technical. The average citizen has never heard of "Higher" Speed Rail, and has no idea of what is the speed threshold for HSR, which even varies among countries and organizations. And Brightline itself has sometimes thrown around the term indiscriminately. So that's forgivable.

The biggest sin was assuming that Brightline will be a practical way to get from the airport to WDW when Brightline has not said they are interested in that business, and in fact has hinted that somebody else should provide the service.

I suppose someone who hadn't been following the subject might gain some info of which they weren't aware, but they also might have had false hopes risen.

 

[user 1215]

The definition of HSR is purely technical. The average citizen has never heard of "Higher" Speed Rail, and has no idea of what is the speed threshold for HSR, which even varies among countries and organizations. And Brightline itself has sometimes thrown around the term indiscriminately. So that's forgivable.

The biggest sin was assuming that Brightline will be a practical way to get from the airport to WDW when Brightline has not said they are interested in that business, and in fact has hinted that somebody else should provide the service.

I suppose someone who hadn't been following the subject might gain some info of which they weren't aware, but they also might have had false hopes risen.

I get what you're saying about "HSR", but people are applying it where it's not even referenced (Brightline doesn't explicitly mention HSR on their website). But they do plan on WDW. They are showing Disney Springs as a future stop WELL before the Orlando leg is even finished and before they even publicly mention any potential stops between MCO and WPB.

In all fairness, the article does list all the potential downfalls to using Brightline as an MCO/WDW connection. But, yeah, it's intended audience (Disney FANatics) are well served with the info.

FWIW - I just did something for the first time ever.... Just BOUGHT my family our first Annual Passes to WDW. I had so many comp tickets from my time there, then a cast member friend pass'd us in once, and all that got used up.

Now I wish Brightline was up and running all the way to Tampa and had a station at Melbourne AND Disney Springs. LOL

 

[cirdan]

I suppose someone who hadn't been following the subject might gain some info of which they weren't aware, but they also might have had false hopes risen.

At the end of the day its welcome good news and free publicity for an innovative and unique train service.

And who can have an issue with that?

 

[jis]

At the end of the day its welcome good news and free publicity for an innovative and unique train service.

And who can have an issue with that?

Yup. The details will take a while to work themselves out anyway. Do we even know exactly what route will finally get selected?

 

[George Harris]

Does anyone have comparison of ALC-44s and ACS-64s? If running gear is same for both then it might be possible to run ALCs at 150. That is trucks, wheels, traction motors and maybe frame. Maybe frame is different?

Remember, a diesel locomotive is basically an electric locomotive that is carrying the source of the electricity on its back. The question really gets down to weight per axle. Generally electric locomotives, in addition to carrying the equipment to convert 25kV AC to motor appropriate current have weight added to provide for effective adhesion. If carrying the diesel engine makes the whole thing too heavy, then the issue is to lighten the power plant or to have more axles. So, to say that an engine is speed limited solely because it is diesel powered is actually an error in concept.