Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[cirdan]

Is it legal and feasible to put gates across the tracks, which would normally be in closed position and raise when the roadway gates lower? In the event of a malfunction, a locomotive would breeze thru a closed breakaway gate without damage.

I've seen videos of manually operated crossings in other countries where the gate is swung from the tracks to the roadway, but I don't think I've ever seen an automatic gate blocking tracks.

Such swing gates were quite common in Britain in the past but had virtually been eliminated by about the 1980s, other than a few examples on heritage lines.

They were typically hand operated though, which required crossing keepers (unless there was a station nearby whose staff could operate them).

I don't know why they were not automated

 

[joelkfla]

Anything nice, bright and reflective. White would be fine too as would Bright Pink if all existing colors in the standard is inappropriate for some reason.

Looks like there is a white line, but it's poorly maintained and does not extend over the tracks. Perhaps the crossing was replaced, and the locality didn't bother to repaint them.

I don't know what's up with those black markings: whether they're intended to highlight that there are tracks there, or they're part of the crossing material structure. Anyhow, I think they would make the white line (if it were there) harder to follow.

 

[jis]

I get the impression that the design of visible markings on crossing roads and setting standards for them has been a relatively neglected area, and localities and railroads just do whatever they please or not.

Unfortunately, more often than not this is what a crossing looks like in Florida... no markings of anything on the road.

 

[west point]

Do not know there but the markings here are metal borders of the concrete panels.
why not put the white lane reflective markers on and outside the lane markings? The DOT here put a gaggle of yellow reflectors on the end of the inside lane of I-85. You cannot miss them.

 

[jis]

Do not know there but the markings here are metal borders of the concrete panels.
why not put the white lane reflective markers on and outside the lane markings? The DOT here put a gaggle of yellow reflectors on the end of the inside lane of I-85. You cannot miss them.

The key is for whatever marking is used, to be very clearly visible at night. Macadam to metal transition is not all that visible at night in their natural state, except perhaps when the Macadam is very fresh which may last for a few weeks after it is laid.

 

[west point]

The reflectors need to be the raised kind, They are glued to the road surface and rise about 1 inch above the pavement.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Such swing gates were quite common in Britain in the past but had virtually been eliminated by about the 1980s, other than a few examples on heritage lines.

They were typically hand operated though, which required crossing keepers (unless there was a station nearby whose staff could operate them).

I don't know why they were not automated

My hometown of South Benfleet had swing gates that were electrically powered and operated from a nearby signal box (interlocking tower in US-ese). They were eliminated in the 1960's when the busy road (only connection to Canvey Island) was rebuilt with an underpass.
But as noted these types of gates are no longer in use AFAIK.

 

[George Harris]

Looks like there is a white line, but it's poorly maintained and does not extend over the tracks. Perhaps the crossing was replaced, and the locality didn't bother to repaint them.

I don't know what's up with those black markings: whether they're intended to highlight that there are tracks there, or they're part of the crossing material structure. Anyhow, I think they would make the white line (if it were there) harder to follow.

The "black markings" are not markings at all, but the edges and ends of the crossing panel segments. Based on the nice exact end of the paint at the edge of the crossing panels, it is fairly certain that the paint job predates the crossing panel installation. Chances are the next time the lane lines are painted they will paint across the crossing, or possibly not have any lane lines at all, but large wide stop lines across the lanes as is commonly done at intersections.

The reflectors need to be the raised kind, They are glued to the road surface and rise about 1 inch above the pavement.

This would work in Florida, and is used in quite a few places to mark lanes or edges or other factors, but would not work in any area were snow plows are used. I think the reason for that would be obvious.

 

[joelkfla]

The "black markings" are not markings at all, but the edges and ends of the crossing panel segments. Based on the nice exact end of the paint at the edge of the crossing panels, it is fairly certain that the paint job predates the crossing panel installation. Chances are the next time the lane lines are painted they will paint across the crossing, or possibly not have any lane lines at all, but large wide stop lines across the lanes as is commonly done at intersections.

That occurred to me, and it's what I meant by part of the structure. I just didn't think the panels used at crossings were that small. Perhaps the thick lines are panel edges, and the thin ones built-in expansion joints?

 

[George Harris]

That occurred to me, and it's what I meant by part of the structure. I just didn't think the panels used at crossings were that small. Perhaps the thick lines are panel edges, and the thin ones built-in expansion joints?

I have no clue. Thick ones do look about right for length of panel segments. For something this short you do not need expansion joints, so I do not know what the thin lines are. These are not usual in the ones I have seen.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

The "black markings" are not markings at all, but the edges and ends of the crossing panel segments. Based on the nice exact end of the paint at the edge of the crossing panels, it is fairly certain that the paint job predates the crossing panel installation. Chances are the next time the lane lines are painted they will paint across the crossing, or possibly not have any lane lines at all, but large wide stop lines across the lanes as is commonly done at intersections.

This would work in Florida, and is used in quite a few places to mark lanes or edges or other factors, but would not work in any area were snow plows are used. I think the reason for that would be obvious.

Up north we have recessed reflectors on at least our highways.

 

[west point]

Up north we have recessed reflectors on at least our highways.

Recessed reflectors and lights are used on airport runways and taxiways so sweepers can clear area faster.

 

[user 1215]

could they possibly be magnetic sensors?

 

[Brian_tampa]

In a news report out of Orlando this evening, the spokeswoman for Brightline was saying that trains might reach 150 mph on certain straightaway sections of the I-4 ROW. This was during a presentation given by Brightline to the local Hillsborough County Transportation and Planning Organization on this past Tuesday Wednesday morning here. Maybe the trains can run at 150mph with two Chargers, but I wonder about the PTC system capabilities. Florida is flat and there are stretches of I-4 that are straight and long enough to accommodate these speeds.

Brightline sets sights on future expansion to Disney Springs, Tampa

Edit: here is the link to the TPO meeting video. The Brightline presentation begins around minute 47

 

[wildchicken13]

In a news report out of Orlando this evening, the spokeswoman for Brightline was saying that trains might reach 150 mph on certain straightaway sections of the I-4 ROW. This was during a presentation given by Brightline to the local Hillsborough County Transportation and Planning Organization on this past Tuesday morning here. Maybe the trains can run at 150mph with two Chargers, but I wonder about the PTC system capabilities. Florida is flat and there are stretches of I-4 that are straight and long enough to accommodate these speeds.

Brightline sets sights on future expansion to Disney Springs, Tampa

Wow, that's the fastest speed in the U.S. outside of the Northeast Corridor!

 

[Cal]

Maybe the trains can run at 150mph with two Chargers,

I don't think that's how it works.

 

[Brian_tampa]

I don't think that's how it works.

I know... that's why I am a bit confused about this statement. I've always thought the Chargers had a maximum speed of 125mph. I understand all of the mechanical and engineering design reasons why they should not be able to run faster than 125mph. But yet we have this video with Brightline saying they are exploring the idea of running at 150mph. This doesn't square with all I have known so far.

 

[chrsjrcj]

Perhaps they're considering hopping on the dual mode power bandwagon and electrifying the OIA to Tampa section.

 

[Brian_tampa]

I have been able to confirm from one of my contacts at Brightline that they will indeed use their Chargers to reach 150mph. Not sure how they can modify the Chargers for this higher speed, maybe there is an unknown feature of the Charger design they have been aware of and are now going to try to implement? This is surprising news for sure!

 

[wildchicken13]

I have been able to confirm from one of my contacts at Brightline that they will indeed use their Chargers to reach 150mph. Not sure how they can modify the Chargers for this higher speed, maybe there is an unknown feature of the Charger design they have been aware of and are now going to try to implement? This is surprising news for sure!

Easy, just remove the limiter.

 

[west point]

150 will require changing the traction motor to axel ratio to obtain that speed. Can chargers even accelerate quick enough to any speed as higher ratios require more power to traction motors More important charger probably have been tested only to the 125 FRA speed which is 137 MPH. 150 will require testing to 165 for both locos and passenger cars.

 

[jis]

I have been able to confirm from one of my contacts at Brightline that they will indeed use their Chargers to reach 150mph. Not sure how they can modify the Chargers for this higher speed, maybe there is an unknown feature of the Charger design they have been aware of and are now going to try to implement? This is surprising news for sure!

Of course they will need to get those certified for both higher speed which is probably achievable changing the gear ratio and Tier III buff strength architecture. Thos etrains are incredibly over powered, so changing the gear ratio may be feasible.

Then there is the issue of making them Tier III to be certified for operation above 125mph. The cars already appear to be architected with CEM and it may be possible that they are already Tier III capable. Then there is the issue of making the power heads Tier III if they are not.

If they manage to do 150mph then AFAIK these will become the fastest regularly operating diesel trains.

 

[George Harris]

I know... that's why I am a bit confused about this statement. I've always thought the Chargers had a maximum speed of 125mph. I understand all of the mechanical and engineering design reasons why they should not be able to run faster than 125mph. But yet we have this video with Brightline saying they are exploring the idea of running at 150mph. This doesn't square with all I have known so far.

People, people, this is not how it works. Even if the equipment cannot run faster than 125mph, you should NOT build an alignment that limits you to that speed. Alignments you are stuck with. Equipment can be replaced or modified. If it were me doing it, I would be looking toward an alignment that could handle 175 to 200 mph, even if the current equipment and train control could not go past 110 or even 79 mph. Technology changes. Alignment revisions vary from very expensive to impossible for all practical purposes. For the case here, my initial statement concerning alignment development is, "A straight line has no speed limit." They are probably saying 150 mph for the sake of saying to these people, we can and likely will in the future run faster than we do now. 150 mph is probably as high a number they dare use that does not flip the locals circuit breakers.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Of course they will need to get those certified for both higher speed which is probably achievable changing the gear ratio and Tier III buff strength architecture. Thos etrains are incredibly over powered, so changing the gear ratio may be feasible.

Then there is the issue of making them Tier III to be certified for operation above 125mph. The cars already appear to be architected with CEM and it may be possible that they are already Tier III capable. Then there is the issue of making the power heads Tier III if they are not.

If they manage to do 150mph then AFAIK these will become the fastest regularly operating diesel trains.

Doesn't 125-160 operation require Tier II certification? Tier III is for 160-220mph I think. But Brightline must be aware of a somewhat cost effective path to get the trainsets certified for 150mph operation. That is why they must know the potential maximum speed capabilities of the trainsets and what is required to get them to run at the higher speed. What would prevent them from running at 150 MAS between Orlando and Cocoa? That section is actually straighter for a longer distance than any section along I-4.

 

[Brian_tampa]

People, people, this is not how it works. Even if the equipment cannot run faster than 125mph, you should NOT build an alignment that limits you to that speed. Alignments you are stuck with. Equipment can be replaced or modified. If it were me doing it, I would be looking toward an alignment that could handle 175 to 200 mph, even if the current equipment and train control could not go past 110 or even 79 mph. Technology changes. Alignment revisions vary from very expensive to impossible for all practical purposes. For the case here, my initial statement concerning alignment development is, "A straight line has no speed limit." They are probably saying 150 mph for the sake of saying to these people, we can and likely will in the future run faster than we do now. 150 mph is probably as high a number they dare use that does not flip the locals circuit breakers.

The government Florida HSR project from 2010 would have had a maximum speed of 168mph along I-4. That included some significant work on modifying the I-4 highway lanes along certain segments around curves as well as utilizing electric powered locomotives. I agree that maximizing the alignment for the highest speed is great. In the case of Brightline, being privately funded also means it has to justify every expenditure, so I get it that they might not want to increase the construction cost significantly at this time to save a few minutes run time. They have to work within the confines of what FDOT will allow in their ROW. That being said, I have not seen the design plans for phase 3 to Tampa along I-4 to verify what they are going to build along I-4.