Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[west point]

The additional dispatcher request is difficultto figure out. The number of grade crossing incidents probably much more than anyone thought. Co ordinating with Trirail at Iris Cp may be a problem as well. Dispatchers probably cannot set up changes from one carrier to other greater than 5 minutes.
Now after 'bright line and TriRail go to bred position should be combined. Ay one know the situation of the FLL draw bridge?

 

[joelkfla]

https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando...FAZkDEgKNH2HldWf8wGMxZOrAPnT9DVJj8E&fs=e&s=cl

Full size versions of the maps in that article are downloadable here: https://corporate.sunrail.com/wp-co...p-Brightline-Universal-Presentation-FINAL.pdf

The final map also shows a "Sunbridge Parkway" station east of the airport. This is the first I've heard of that. The section from there to Disney is tiger-striped, but that station is not included on the "Shared Corridor" map, so it's not clear whether that is proposed to be a SunRail or a Brightline station.

 

[west point]

Full size versions of the maps in that article are downloadable here: https://corporate.sunrail.com/wp-co...p-Brightline-Universal-Presentation-FINAL.pdf

The final map also shows a "Sunbridge Parkway" station east of the airport. This is the first I've heard of that. The section from there to Disney is tiger-striped, but that station is not included on the "Shared Corridor" map, so it's not clear whether that is proposed to be a SunRail or a Brightline station.

Color coding seems to indicate Sun Rail. That is a big puzzle with limited public access. Expect Tri Rail but that would be a very expensive station with a stub end single track station. Stub needed for time for PTC reversal. Cross over turnouts would be needed from south track to north track. then turn out to stub track. Someone's pie in the sky???

 

[blueman271]

https://www.miamitodaynews.com/2022...-downtown-miami-stalled-leader-spreads-blame/

I wonder what happens first, Tri-Rail to downtown or Amtrak to the airport?

 

[jis]

Full size versions of the maps in that article are downloadable here: https://corporate.sunrail.com/wp-co...p-Brightline-Universal-Presentation-FINAL.pdf

The final map also shows a "Sunbridge Parkway" station east of the airport. This is the first I've heard of that. The section from there to Disney is tiger-striped, but that station is not included on the "Shared Corridor" map, so it's not clear whether that is proposed to be a SunRail or a Brightline station.

SunRail. That is the eastern terminus of the proposed SunRail East-West Corridor.

As it has been conceived I think after a full build out it will be either a single or two platform track between the two mains so that reversal will not involve any conflicts with any opposing traffic on the mains. At present that area is single track so that issue lies somewhere in the future but is easy to plan for without any disruption to anything right now.

Sunbridge Parkway area (you won't find Sunbridge Parkway there in Google Map, since it is yet to be built. Look for where Innovation Way overpass across Beach Line is) is an up and coming industrial area which makes a very reasonable place for the east end of an Orlando commuter service. It will need to be supported by a local circulator bus/van system to connect to the various business locations or clusters. The exit ramp fly overs have been designed with space for a future placement of such a station.

Incidentally, this is also very close to where the connector from the OUC siding to Brightline has been built. The one that is being used by construction material trains now.

 

[bonzoesc]

I wonder what happens first, Tri-Rail to downtown or Amtrak to the airport?

If I had to guess, Amtrak to MIA. Tri-Rail’s trials for the downtown station have been pretty amateur hour so far, with talk about having to reshape platform edges and concerns about the stability of the big ramp with heavier trains than Brightline’s brand new sets, while Amtrak’s already doing research about blocking streets with the really long Super Star trains during station stops.

 

[west point]

I wonder what happens first, Tri-Rail to downtown or Amtrak to the airport?

Great question. The structural problems downtown may not be fixable?

 

[jis]

Great question. The structural problems downtown may not be fixable?

The necessary fixes are scheduled to be completed by August of this year. The work is going on at present.

The current unresolved haggling is about dispatching facilities which is yet to be resolved. The Florida Dispatching Company (FDC) which dispatches all of the railroad owned by FECR and Brightline in Florida, wants a setup that Tri-Rail thinks is unnecessary. Of course since the railroad in question is owned by the owners of FDC, Tri-Rail is unlikely to get too far into that station without resolving its differences with FDC first.

 

[user 1215]

For one thing it will now be a through station instead of a terminus station. A terminus station never made any sense to me except for the fact that given the previous route alignments that was the only way to get a station on Disney property.

The other thing I read somewhere is that Brightline requires a station that can accommodate (for future growth) a 10-car train that is STRAIGHT. Why can't Brightline have a curved platform?

 

[jis]

The other thing I read somewhere is that Brightline requires a station that can accommodate (for future growth) a 10-car train that is STRAIGHT. Why can't Brightline have a curved platform?

Curved platforms lead to larger than usual gaps between platform and end doors on cars. That is why they are always better to avoid whenever one can. I am sure Brightline will not build a significantly curved high level platform anywhere if they can help it.

BTW, the fact that there was not going to be a station on Disney property was a foregone conclusion once it is decided to proceed from OCC to Tampa along I-4. The previous arrangement with a terminal on Disney property was an odd arrangement because it was the only way to shoehorn a station at a point where the main line would otherwise make a sharp turn to get onto the I-4 alignment.

On the whole the new alignment is a much better one serving many more people than just a Disney property stop

 

[joelkfla]

Curved platforms lead to larger than usual gaps between platform and end doors on cars. That is why they are always better to avoid whenever one can. I am sure Brightline will not build a significantly curved high level platform anywhere if they can help it.

Every doorway has a built-in gap filler which extends to make the car wheelchair accessible. Maybe the gap fillers are not designed for use at a curved platform, and would leave a gap which would be ADA non-compliant.

 

[jis]

Ay one know the situation of the FLL draw bridge?

Drawbridge Operation Regulation: New River, Fort Lauderdale, FL

 

[bonzoesc]

Every doorway has a built-in gap filler which extends to make the car wheelchair accessible. Maybe the gap fillers are not designed for use at a curved platform, and would leave a gap which would be ADA non-compliant.

That's almost certainly the case, and only having boarding doors at ends of carriages probably makes things worse.

I feel like I've seen gap fillers on the platform side on the Berlin U-Bahn (but can't find pictures of them from Hausvogteiplatz where I would've seen 'em for sure), but NYC has had them too: Why is the Subway at Union Square Platform Curved? - Untapped New York

 

[joelkfla]

That's almost certainly the case, and only having boarding doors at ends of carriages probably makes things worse.

I feel like I've seen gap fillers on the platform side on the Berlin U-Bahn (but can't find pictures of them from Hausvogteiplatz where I would've seen 'em for sure), but NYC has had them too: Why is the Subway at Union Square Platform Curved? - Untapped New York

The most famous platform-mounted gap fillers on NYTA were at the old South Ferry station, which was on a very tight balloon loop. I think they were activated by the train operator pressing a button outside his window, but retraction seemed to be initiated by the side of the train either hitting a contact switch on each individual filler or physically pushing the filler back.

The station was replaced by a modern stub-end terminal maybe half a block away, but I saw a video of a recent fan trip visiting the old station.

 

[cirdan]

Cancellation is real. Brightline just shifted to planning a stop "near by" off Disney property. Disney's loss, but calculated. People will still take the train to "near-Disney". Now, Disney won't have to spend a dime - which they don't have very many of these days.

Can brightline serve eminent domain on Disney . That would be a cynical way of saying we are not on Disney property but still in the same location as before ?

 

[cirdan]

The other thing I read somewhere is that Brightline requires a station that can accommodate (for future growth) a 10-car train that is STRAIGHT. Why can't Brightline have a curved platform?

Straight platforms also make it easier for staff to visually check everybody is standing well clear for departure and no coats are caught in doors or anything like that .

 

[user 1215]

Straight platforms also make it easier for staff to visually check everybody is standing well clear for departure and no coats are caught in doors or anything like that .

Curved platforms have been all over Japan for nearly a century. Obviously not for 100 years, they use video monitors to see around the train. I don't know when gap fillers suddenly became a big deal EXCEPT for the fact that disability access has skyrocketed in the last couple of decades. I understand the desire for the simplicity, but I don't see the requirement.

Note: I was looking for curved Shinkansen stations, and I can't seem to find any. That being said, the trains are so long, they still need monitors to see all the doors (which happen to be at the ends of the carriages). They also employ platform "conductors"(?) who flag the conductor that things are good to go (along with the electronic validations - lights outside doors, in-cab, etc).

 

[Tlcooper44]

Curved platforms have been all over Japan for nearly a century. Obviously not for 100 years, they use video monitors to see around the train. I don't know when gap fillers suddenly became a big deal EXCEPT for the fact that disability access has skyrocketed in the last couple of decades. I understand the desire for the simplicity, but I don't see the requirement.

Note: I was looking for curved Shinkansen stations, and I can't seem to find any. That being said, the trains are so long, they still need monitors to see all the doors (which happen to be at the ends of the carriages). They also employ platform "conductors"(?) who flag the conductor that things are good to go (along with the electronic validations - lights outside doors, in-cab, etc).

I noticed this. Stations in Japan are sometimes straight but individual platforms are curved.

With google earth it’s hard to tell which platforms belong to which lines sometimes. Plenty of curved platforms, but those are often regional lines.

Brightline trains are never going to be all that long though. 10 cars at best, so it’s not a huge deal.

Edit- check out Tokyo platforms on the eastern side. I think those are Shinkansen and they are curved.

 

[Ryan]

I don't know when gap fillers suddenly became a big deal EXCEPT for the fact that disability access has skyrocketed in the last couple of decades.

You answered your own question there.

 

[jis]

Can brightline serve eminent domain on Disney . That would be a cynical way of saying we are not on Disney property but still in the same location as before ?

That would seem like an absurd thing to do - to pay Disney for land that is not needed any more. Eminent domain does not make the transaction free of charge. It just forces the transaction to take place.

The same location is more or less unusable without jumping through hoops perhaps, given the new routing.

 

[user 1215]

I noticed this. Stations in Japan are sometimes straight but individual platforms are curved.

With google earth it’s hard to tell which platforms belong to which lines sometimes. Plenty of curved platforms, but those are often regional lines.

Brightline trains are never going to be all that long though. 10 cars at best, so it’s not a huge deal.

Edit- check out Tokyo platforms on the eastern side. I think those are Shinkansen and they are curved.

Yes - I walked through Tokyo Station daily through high school. The Shinkansen platforms there are slightly curved - to a point where you can't really see the front from the back, but not greatly curved. And you're right, the shorter, regional trains (and the subways you can't really see) also have more curved platforms.

It would have been tough to get a straight or slightly curved station into Disney Springs. The stub terminal looks like it would have been the best solution, but I don't think folks like changing direction in the middle of a ride (primarily thinking about those travelling THROUGH DS rather than to/from). It also makes direction of travel a bit more confusing. I don't recall that Brightline has on-train destination boards on the coaches. That's one thing that I found quite irritating the one time I was at FLL. The NB and SB trains arrived at the same time and the kindergarten walk line leaders didn't seem to have their classes lined up properly. Lack of signage, encouragement of copious adult beverage consumption makes boarding at intermediate stations confusing already - probably more so if you were at a station where all the trains are headed out the same direction but to different destinations.

 

[jis]

Generally gentle curves can be handled with suitably adjustable bridge plates. It is sharp curves that are problematic. Even worse if the track is superelevated too. To see how bad things can get just visit the westbound platform (Track 4) of Metropark on the NEC. You have to veritably jump across a chasm.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Oh, that wouldn't be a problem -- what I'm saying is that the trains to Disney will probably skip all stations between Orlando Airport and Disney, including the SunRail transfer station and the I-Drive station. And that the trains from the east to Disney probably wouldn't run through from Disney to Tampa.

So if you want to go from I-Drive to Disney, they'll make you backtrack through the airport and change trains.

Not having a SunRail transfer point on the way to Disney is really dumb for Disney. Many thousands of Orlando-area residents would LOVE to be able to get to Disney without having to drive the slow-rolling-disaster known as I-4. Being able to get to Disney from your local SunRail station would be a WONDERFUL thing.

 

[west point]

Disney IMO is suffering from a common business madly. Middle age idea that what worked in the past will no longer work. "New Blood" says we must invent the wheel with a different design that does not have effect on its function. We hve to wonder how much the I-4 mess stops people from going to disney.

Disney is trying to control everything that its potential patrons have to do to visit. Thanks but no thanks. After getting locked in an I-4 mess delaying what was to be a full day into a 1/2 day said forget it and have no regrets.

Now if I could park at Sanford, take Sun Rail to Disney, not have to do I-4, pay to park at Disney, then maybe could put up with all Disney's stupid marching orders.

 

[jis]

Why are people willfully ignoring the fact that the new proposed alignment pretty much makes it difficult to place a station on Disney property? A station is planned in the vicinity, but not on Disney property, and some are all worked up about it without understanding the actual lay of the land apparently. It was not anything that Disney initiated anyway. It was Mayor Buddy Dyer's efforts to get a station at OCC and success in getting all parties together on that. The new alignment actually serves many more potential customers than just a stop at Disney, and there still is a station in the Disney area. It certainly is a better alignment for SunRail service than the 417 Corridor would have been.

IMHO the original proposal to place a terminal station on Disney property was borderline crazy, enabled only by the fact that the then proposed alignment would have had to make a very sharp left turn heading towards Tampa to get on the I-4 alignment. IMHO, it is a good that that a solution has been found eliminating that.