Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[Brian_tampa]

ConstructionJobs.com has a listing for the Orlando area for Project managers, engineers, and estimators. It has been posted since the first of the year. One of the projects listed (along with work for the I-4 rebuild in Orlando) is for AAF:

http://constructionjobs.com/jobseeker/DisplayJob/?jobpostID=200282

"All ABoard Florida: Is a high speed rail project from Orlando to Miami; the Design Build sections has a total value of $500-$600m. These projects involves major earthwork, bridges, drainage and rail."

It seems they value the Design/Build portion to be $500-600 million. I believe that this would be for the MIA to WPB section as that was where AAF was going to start construction first. And that amount is slightly less than the RRIF loan they applied for last year for the same segment ($632 million listed in public documents). Not trying to read too much into this, but does this mean that the start of work is imminent? The last I heard was that AAF was wrapping up contract negotiations with the engineering/construction firms in December.

 

[Anderson]

I suspect that the RRIF loan amount included a not-insubstantial contingency allowance and/or have gone in at the high end of the range. 10% is pretty standard from what I've seen in other planning documents, so a project in the $560-570m range might incur a loan request around $630m. It's also possible that AAF is being purposefully vague on the project range in the job listing, too.

Still, it does look like things are rapidly moving along.

 

[cirdan]

just in case anybody missed this announcement.

Florida East Coast orders 24 GE locomotives

31 Jan 2014

USA: Florida East Coast Railway announced an order for 24 GE Transportation ES44C4 Evolution Series locomotives on January 30.

'These locomotives will provide the fuel-efficient power we need to support the current operations and future growth of the railroad,' said Fran Chinnici, Senior Vice-President of Mechanical, Engineering & Purchasing at FEC.

The FEC runs for 560 km along the east coast of the state from Miami to Jacksonville, serving PortMiami, Port Everglades and Port of Palm Beach.

source:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/florida-east-coast-orders-24-ge-locomotives.html

 

[PRR 60]

just in case anybody missed this announcement.

Florida East Coast orders 24 GE locomotives

31 Jan 2014

USA: Florida East Coast Railway announced an order for 24 GE Transportation ES44C4 Evolution Series locomotives on January 30.

'These locomotives will provide the fuel-efficient power we need to support the current operations and future growth of the railroad,' said Fran Chinnici, Senior Vice-President of Mechanical, Engineering & Purchasing at FEC.

The FEC runs for 560 km along the east coast of the state from Miami to Jacksonville, serving PortMiami, Port Everglades and Port of Palm Beach.

source:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/florida-east-coast-orders-24-ge-locomotives.html

Those are freight locomotives ordered by FEC railroad. The passenger equipment will be purchased by All Aboard Florida.

 

[edjbox]

Will All Aboard Florida buy the GE P40s from NJT and/or the P40s from Amtrak currently at Beech Grove? (at least for the first few years)

 

[Paulus]

Will All Aboard Florida buy the GE P40s from NJT and/or the P40s from Amtrak currently at Beech Grove?

No.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Will All Aboard Florida buy the GE P40s from NJT and/or the P40s from Amtrak currently at Beech Grove? (at least for the first few years)

They will be using European trainsets. So nothing American made for this service.

 

[Aaron]

Will All Aboard Florida buy the GE P40s from NJT and/or the P40s from Amtrak currently at Beech Grove? (at least for the first few years)

They will be using European trainsets. So nothing American made for this service.

False. The Ft. Pierce presentation linked to earlier in this thread has AAF VP of Corporate Development specifically saying "made in America". They say they are using all new designs, though, which would preclude picking up any used P40s or anything like that.

 

[cirdan]

Will All Aboard Florida buy the GE P40s from NJT and/or the P40s from Amtrak currently at Beech Grove? (at least for the first few years)

They will be using European trainsets. So nothing American made for this service.

False. The Ft. Pierce presentation linked to earlier in this thread has AAF VP of Corporate Development specifically saying "made in America". They say they are using all new designs, though, which would preclude picking up any used P40s or anything like that.

I assume that what The CJ calls "European trainsets" means trainsets based on, or at least inspired by, European designs. Not actually equipment imported wholesale from Europe. In much the same way you could say the ACS-64, or the AEM-7 is a European locomotive.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

All American passenger electrics are European. The AEM-7 and related ALP-44 are AseaBrownBovari, the Fast Flying Phallus ER, I mean HHP-8 was based on TGV tech from Alstom, the ALP-46 is a Daimler-Benz design, and the ACS-64 is Siemens. And the most advanced locomotive in the US, Infact probably most advanced ever produced, the ALP-45DP is a modified ALP-46, designed, engineered, and largely built in Europe.

 

[afigg]

All American passenger electrics are European. The AEM-7 and related ALP-44 are AseaBrownBovari, the Fast Flying Phallus ER, I mean HHP-8 was based on TGV tech from Alstom, the ALP-46 is a Daimler-Benz design, and the ACS-64 is Siemens. And the most advanced locomotive in the US, Infact probably most advanced ever produced, the ALP-45DP is a modified ALP-46, designed, engineered, and largely built in Europe.

All Aboard Florida will not be buying electric locomotives or EMUs, but either diesel powered locomotives or maybe even DMUs, so the origin of electric locomotives are moot point for what AAF might purchase. We will have to wait to see what AAF buys and how much of it will actually be made in the US.

 

[Paulus]

Given the F125's acceleration, please for the love of good transit let it be DMUs

 

[George Harris]

GML: Nice to see you back. Unless I have missed it, it has been quite a while since you have been here.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Looks like the new AAF station at the Orlando airport is one step closer to reality. Florida Gov. Scott to announce this afternoon a $200 million dollar state grant to the GOAA (airport authority) to construct the station. Here is a link to the Orlando Setinel article from this morning.

Update: Looks like $213 million. And not unexpected, John Mica had some words to say. Here is the link. Not sure how easy it will be to obtain the approval of the legislature.

 

[chrsjrcj]

I would like to see the presentation, but the plot thickens?

All Aboard Florida Wants more South Florida Stations, Trains

http://www.exmiami.org/index.php/aboard-florida-wants-south-florida-stations-trains/

 

[Anderson]

I don't think that AAF is trying to kill the Coastal Link...it sounds like the Tri-Rail people are trying to mess with AAF and AAF is fighting back. AAF wanting the right to run twice-hourly trains is not unreasonable (let's face it, if they're successful they could easily need additional slots at peak hours, and they will need additional slots if they go to Jacksonville as well as Orlando). AAF wanting the right to add stations down the line is also not unreasonable. I'm undecided on the fare agreement...I can see an argument that if AAF is limited to twice Tri-Rail's peak fare at off-peak times, you could effectively require a fare differential of more like 4:1 than 2:1...not to mention that AAF could be forced to hike fares because Tri-Rail hikes them.

AAF is probably being unreasonable in wanting Tri-Rail to have 18 stations opened before starting, but that's about the only unreasonable point on their part. Other than that, as far as I can tell this is AAF not wanting to have their hands tied going forward.

All else being equal, it looks like SFRTA is afraid that AAF might end up knocking them for a loop down the road. I suspect they don't want to get stuck paying for a bunch of stations only for AAF to end up grabbing business, but...this just seems ridiculous on their part. I see absolutely no reason that, so long as the line has the capacity for them, both sides couldn't run lots of trains. But if SFRTA wants to run a bunch of commuter trains, they should probably negotiate for the slots rather than trying to freeze out any expansion of AAF. At this point, I really wouldn't blame AAF for telling Tri-Rail to buzz off.

 

[MattW]

Good grief, 64 trains per day. Per Trains Magazine's latest (April) issue, that's more than MARC Penn Line, or SEPTA's Trenton Line, or MBTA from Providence, and more trains than Amtrak runs North of New York on the NEC!

 

[Anderson]

Good grief, 64 trains per day. Per Trains Magazine's latest (April) issue, that's more than MARC Penn Line, or SEPTA's Trenton Line, or MBTA from Providence, and more trains than Amtrak runs North of New York on the NEC!

64 trains is 32 round trips. The plan at the moment is 16 round trips (i.e. 32 trains), one each hour from 0600 to 2100, but it seems that AAF wants the flexibility to double that. It sounds like more than it is in some regards because of long-term plans to go to Tampa and Jacksonville...remember, trains can't go both places. It's also quite believable that, even if Jacksonville didn't happen, AAF could want to run a second hourly train at peak hours. In this context, it isn't likely that they'd need to run all 32 round trips to Orlando...but in their shoes, I'd definitely want to have the ability to run extra trains at those hours (or to extend service by an hour or two in either direction...for example, if they go via Disney to Tampa, running a train after whenever the parks close), and the full set of 32 round trips preserves flexibility.

Edit: I'm wondering how many frequencies Tri-Rail is looking at running, etc. It seems like a viable agreement would be for Tri-Rail to basically turn into a rush hour supplement to AAF. The other thought: I know FEC/AAF explicitly wants to eventually drop cruise passengers off closer to the docks, so that would be a fourth station...and one which would be precluded by Tri-Rail's actions.

 

[Brian_tampa]

After hearing this for the first time on here about AAF wanting 32 round trips per day I found the Tri-Rail Coastal Link meeting agenda document where all this is spelled out here on page 113 of the PDF:

http://www.sfrta.fl.gov/docs/BoardMeetings/2014/Final_022814_Agenda_cb.pdf#page99

Haven't read through the whole thing as it is late and am working long hours... Maybe someone else will soon.

Edit: wow! One big shocker is on page 115 - it says AAF is applying for a $1.6 billion dollar RRIF loan!!

 

[Anderson]

After hearing this for the first time on here about AAF wanting 32 round trips per day I found the Tri-Rail Coastal Link meeting agenda document where all this is spelled out here on page 113 of the PDF:

http://www.sfrta.fl.gov/docs/BoardMeetings/2014/Final_022814_Agenda_cb.pdf#page99

Haven't read through the whole thing as it is late and am working long hours... Maybe someone else will soon.

Edit: wow! One big shocker is on page 115 - it says AAF is applying for a $1.6 billion dollar RRIF loan!!

I saw the mention of that. My suspicion is that it is a highball number to ensure they don't hit a cost overrun issue.

The issue seems to be that AAF wants to plan for extra passenger capacity to avoid hitting an expensive bottleneck later on down the line. Nothing I see indicates that AAF wants to run 64 trains anytime soon, merely that they want to plan based on that potential load level. SFRTA, in turn, wants to cap AAF at their initial proposal and keep them from going further indefinitely.

If it's not clear, I think SFRTA is being overly restrictive in what they're pushing for, though there seems to be room for some negotiation here. I could see an agreement where AAF isn't restricted to 32 trains indefinitely coming to pass, but where SFRTA doesn't have to plan based on dramatically increased service levels for their proposals. Likewise, I suspect AAF will get some additional stations out of the deal if they want them...and I do believe there's a case for some infill stations that could receive limited service from AAF. On the other hand...Tri-Rail probably won't have to be set up to serve all 18 stations at the start.

 

[cirdan]

AAF could want to run a second hourly train at peak hours.

Or add extra evening / night service. I'm surprised at th 9pm last train. With Florida being such a big tourism magnet, it seems AAF isn't especially keen on attarcting the night entertainment crowd. If you want to go clubbing or on a pub crawl or whatever and still get home the same night I would think 12am or 1am departure to be more appropriate, if not later than that even, at least in the high season weekends.

 

[Anderson]

AAF could want to run a second hourly train at peak hours.

Or add extra evening / night service. I'm surprised at th 9pm last train. With Florida being such a big tourism magnet, it seems AAF isn't especially keen on attarcting the night entertainment crowd. If you want to go clubbing or on a pub crawl or whatever and still get home the same night I would think 12am or 1am departure to be more appropriate, if not later than that even, at least in the high season weekends.

I was hinting at that with the Tampa extension...a "Park closing special" run at whatever hour Disney/Universal closes on a given night (presuming some coordination there), and possibly another as Downtown Disney/CityWalk close would likely be a smash hit...I can see the former supporting multiple trains some evenings at peak seasons, especially if Disney coordinates with AAF and/or some shuttles can be set up.

 

[jis]

On a fully double tracked railroad running two trains per hour in each direction is rather light traffic. The French regularly run over 10 trains per hour (allegedly, theoretically upto 15+ tph) in each direction at upto 200mph.

On a single track railroad it will take considerable planning and proper placement of passing sidings.

Just as a random example, the RiverLINE in NJ is able to run 4 trains per hour in each direction on a mix of single track and double track stretches and some additional judiciously placed passing sidings. They can run over 128 trains per day, but actually run considerably less in a real life schedule.

On the stretch between Newark and New York Penn Stations at least theoretically Amtrak is able to run over 22 tph at upto 90mph in each direction on a fully double tracked railroad. Of course what you do with such a massive flood of trains when they arrive at each end is a different matter.

 

[afigg]

After hearing this for the first time on here about AAF wanting 32 round trips per day I found the Tri-Rail Coastal Link meeting agenda document where all this is spelled out here on page 113 of the PDF:

http://www.sfrta.fl.gov/docs/BoardMeetings/2014/Final_022814_Agenda_cb.pdf#page99

Haven't read through the whole thing as it is late and am working long hours... Maybe someone else will soon.

Edit: wow! One big shocker is on page 115 - it says AAF is applying for a $1.6 billion dollar RRIF loan!!

I saw the mention of that. My suspicion is that it is a highball number to ensure they don't hit a cost overrun issue.
The issue seems to be that AAF wants to plan for extra passenger capacity to avoid hitting an expensive bottleneck later on down the line. Nothing I see indicates that AAF wants to run 64 trains anytime soon, merely that they want to plan based on that potential load level. SFRTA, in turn, wants to cap AAF at their initial proposal and keep them from going further indefinitely.

When likely future extensions to Tampa and to Jacksonville are added in, 64 trains a day is arguably a bare minimum reserve for future growth given the population numbers in Florida. 48 trains a day to Orlando Airport & Tampa, 16 to Jacksonville is not that many if the train service succeeds. Hope there is forethought given to protecting the ROW for a 3rd and 4th tracks where there is existing ROW when it comes to new construction of bridges over the tracks and buildings.
As for the RRIF loan, I thought that AAF was applying for a circa $600 million loan. But they may have re-evaluated the costs and with the interest rates on the RRIF loans so low, decided to take a shot at financing the whole project with locked in low rates. However, since the Buy American requirements will apply to any rolling stock financed by the RRIF loan, that suggests AAF is going to buy US built equipment.

 

[jis]

Could AAF apply for TIGER grant? They may not wish to if they want to stay clear of the attached strings. But just as a theoretical consideration, would they be eligible?