Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[Brian_tampa]

Just as on another thread we discussed Amtrak opening LD trains for journeys entirely inside the NEC, in a hypothetical world Amtrak and FEC might work together and FEC could take over the marketing and ticketing of Amtrak journeys entirely on its own corridor, thus making things easier for the passenger who can buy all tickets and get all schedule information from a single interface rather than having to check two unconnected sources. Think of it like a codeshare if you like. Of course their booking systems would have to be somehow linked so Amtrak knows which of its seats FEC has sold.

Even better if the codesharing was mutual, with Amtrak's website and agents selling FEC tickets and showing FEC schedules as well as FEC's system showing connecting Amtrak schedules & ticketing. The codeshare would be as much for people traveling by Amtrak to Florida and then riding FEC to their final destination -- FEC as an Amtrak Thruway -- as for marketing a combined service within the FEC corridor.
As you say, the FEC & Amtrak systems (internal reservations & website) would have to be fully linked. As I understand it, the Amtrak website can't sell Thruway tickets, but only live & phone agents can.

Part of AAF's successful request last October for exemption from STB oversight was that they promised not to connect with Amtrak in any way, including cross ticketing. See page 3 of this link for the STB's formal decision back in late December.
http://www.stb.dot.gov/decisions/readingroom.nsf/UNID/3742BD042B141CAA85257ADB0079675B/$file/42728.pdf

Quoting from the STB decision:

***

In its motion to dismiss, AAF asserts that we do not have jurisdiction over its proposed construction and operation of the Line because this intrastate transportation will not be part of the interstate rail network.4 See 49 U.S.C. § 10501(a)(2)(A). It explains that the proposed Line would not connect with Amtrak or any other interstate passenger rail service provider, and that AAF has no plans to provide through ticketing with Amtrak or any other interstate rail passenger operator for transportation beyond Florida. AAF also states that, although the Lines tracks may physically cross over or connect with the adjacent tracks within the FECR freight corridor, AAF would not participate in any intrastate or interstate freight movements, and the Line would not connect with the tracks of any freight railroad other than FECR.

***

AAF does not appear to want to be associated with any part of Amtrak. They desire to be a separate entity. Maybe way in the future they will, but then they would have to explain that to the STB. In my opinion, Amtrak's pitiful service to Florida of only 2 trains each way per day will have no impact on AAF's overall passenger count if and when AAF expands to Jacksonville.

 

[jis]

I think it is also true that AAF's agreement with STB has no bearing on what FEC may or may not do with Amtrak relative to any commuter or other service it might run outside the purview of AAF. The AAF agreements do not preclude FEC from entering into separate contracts with Amtrak as long as it does not involve AAF in any way.

 

[jebr]

As you say, the FEC & Amtrak systems (internal reservations & website) would have to be fully linked. As I understand it, the Amtrak website can't sell Thruway tickets, but only live & phone agents can.

Minor point: The Amtrak website can sell Thruway tickets on at least some corridors. I know my connection in Salt Lake to Greyhound (which was codeshared as an Amtrak Thruway on the route to Idaho) was bought online last year without a problem...picked my tickets up at the ticket counter.

 

[cirdan]

AAF also states that, although the Lines tracks may physically cross over or connect with the adjacent tracks within the FECR freight corridor, AAF would not participate in any intrastate or interstate freight movements, and the Line would not connect with the tracks of any freight railroad other than FECR.

***

That sounds extremely restrictive to me.

Are there any other examples of succesuful standalone freight rail carriers not exchanging traffic with other lines, other than maybe single-user services such as mining and industrial railroads? It sounds like a strange business decison to me.

 

[jphjaxfl]

The STB ruling applies to All Aboard Florida which will operate the proposed Miami to Orlando passenger trains. Florida East Coast's Freight Railroad currently does and will continue to interchange Freight with other Railroads. There is a large interchange with NS in Jacksonville. We have to remember there are 3 seperate entities: AAF which is developing and will operate the new passenger trains s, FECI which is a real estate developer and FEC railroad which will host AAF's passenger trains.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

I got an email update from AAF today, here is what I found to be the most interesting part:

We are on track to share several exciting milestones by the end of 2013, including our rolling stock manufacturer and new members of our senior management team. In December, we will host another series of public meetings as part of our environmental process that’s currently underway. We also plan to announce the Fort Lauderdale station site soon and break ground on the rail infrastructure by the end of this year.

 

[Nathanael]

FWIW, the STB is definitely regretting the AAF ruling, and I wouldn't count on it sticking, especially if there's even a minor change in the AAF plans. I don't think this will have much effect, though. The STB has signalled that future cases will be handled like the California case: the STB will assert jurisdiction, but disclaim any need for significant oversight.

 

[Anderson]

Just wondering why the regret...and, of course, the source.

Edit: If they were to try and use a minor change of plans (starting time, number of frequencies, etc.) to try and assert jurisdiction, I suspect they'll end up in court rather quickly. Even a Tampa extension as a reason would likely trigger some sort of legal row.

 

[Brian_tampa]

The GOAA Board will consider the AAF agreement at their October meeting. This is good news as now AAF will have agreements with all affected agencies in order to build the new route into Orlando.

http://www.orlandoairports.net/meetings/public/board/20131002_agenda.pdf

The STB looks at whether the AAF proposed service is in the public interest and benefits the public at large and if AAF is involved in interstate commerce. Remember the predecessor to the STB was the ICC (interstate commerce commission). The STB will not reverse it's decision unless AAF does something completely contrary to what their petition promised, ie something like connecting directly with Amtrak or start running freight trains on the new Orlando route. They can't anyway because their lease agreements prohibit freight operations anyways. Unlike CA HSR, AAF will not be associated in any way with interstate passenger travel. That is why the STB ruled they did not have jurisdiction over AAF.

 

[Anderson]

The GOAA Board will consider the AAF agreement at their October meeting. This is good news as now AAF will have agreements with all affected agencies in order to build the new route into Orlando.

http://www.orlandoairports.net/meetings/public/board/20131002_agenda.pdf

The STB looks at whether the AAF proposed service is in the public interest and benefits the public at large and if AAF is involved in interstate commerce. Remember the predecessor to the STB was the ICC (interstate commerce commission). The STB will not reverse it's decision unless AAF does something completely contrary to what their petition promised, ie something like connecting directly with Amtrak or start running freight trains on the new Orlando route. They can't anyway because their lease agreements prohibit freight operations anyways. Unlike CA HSR, AAF will not be associated in any way with interstate passenger travel. That is why the STB ruled they did not have jurisdiction over AAF.

Actually, the agreements don't flatly prohibit freight operations...they just require AAF to get permission from OOCEA first. Also, the odds of AAF actually running freight themselves seem pretty low...it'd be FEC doing that.

Of course, this raises a billion-dollar question: Whose tracks are they, anyway? Is FEC going to own the Orlando-Cocoa tracks? Will it be AAF, under an agreement with FEC? Someone else?

 

[Brian_tampa]

The GOAA Board will consider the AAF agreement at their October meeting. This is good news as now AAF will have agreements with all affected agencies in order to build the new route into Orlando.http://www.orlandoairports.net/meetings/public/board/20131002_agenda.pdf

The STB looks at whether the AAF proposed service is in the public interest and benefits the public at large and if AAF is involved in interstate commerce. Remember the predecessor to the STB was the ICC (interstate commerce commission). The STB will not reverse it's decision unless AAF does something completely contrary to what their petition promised, ie something like connecting directly with Amtrak or start running freight trains on the new Orlando route. They can't anyway because their lease agreements prohibit freight operations anyways. Unlike CA HSR, AAF will not be associated in any way with interstate passenger travel. That is why the STB ruled they did not have jurisdiction over AAF.

Actually, the agreements don't flatly prohibit freight operations...they just require AAF to get permission from OOCEA first. Also, the odds of AAF actually running freight themselves seem pretty low...it'd be FEC doing that.
Of course, this raises a billion-dollar question: Whose tracks are they, anyway? Is FEC going to own the Orlando-Cocoa tracks? Will it be AAF, under an agreement with FEC? Someone else?

That is true but the contracts as currently agreed upon do not allow for freight operation. Also remember Deseret Ranches has an option to construct an "independent track" for freight seperate from AAF. I doubt if GOAA or OOCEA would want freight trains going through the airport. GOAA seems very protective of what they call the "Orlando Experience" at the airport. The tracks and infrastructure will be owned by AAF not FECR. The state and agencies will own the land. AAF is leasing the land.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Brian, I agree with you 100%. The is the same thing I have been reading and hearing. I don't think the FEC RR has any interest in freight operations to Orlando or Tampa. They are doing very well with JAX-MIA.

 

[Brian_tampa]

AAF has an agreement with Orlando International Airport authority (GOAA) today:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-train-airport-deal-20131003,0,1139471.story

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2013/10/02/see-how-much-all-aboard-florida-will.html

Big news is that the GOAA will be asking the state of FL for a 200 million dollar grant for construction of the station at the airport. Also, a new 50 million dollar maintenance facility will be built south of the station (pretty much in the same location as was planned for the HSR project). Eight of the ten train sets will be housed there, I assume allowing for the other two to be at the Miami terminal overnight? Also, it appears the train sets will have 6 coach cars, 1 cafe car, and 2 locomotives.

My opinion on this is that AAF and GOAA have already begun talks with FDOT regarding the $200 million dollar grant. The GOAA would not have signed off on this if the grant did not already have a good chance of happening. Maybe our conservative Gov Scott here will use it as an example of helping private investment and creating jobs. Why not? Every state and most cities use taxpayer money to lure new businesses or help existing ones to expand.

I expect to now see design and construction contracts let very soon. IMHO, AAF is waiting for all these agreements to get made before proceeding forward. Expect alot of announcements and progress to happen now.

Tomorrow, AAF and the toll road authority (OOCEA) will agree to terms with a vote by the Board. Then work can begin finally!

Edit: informative local tv news report from WESH Orlando

http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/highspeed-train-to-connect-orlando-miami/-/11788162/22238756/-/w6bu4a/-/index.html

 

[Anderson]

8-of-10 sounds about right. MCO-MIA service would need to start earlier in the day than MIA-MCO service to make that work (they'd need 3-4 sets in MIA to time identical service starts), but it seems workable. If the first train out of MCO is at 0500, it'd get to MIA about 0800 (in time for an 0900 departure); the biggest issue is that you'd need to have only two departures prior to that to make it work.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Another bit of interesting facts about FECI is that the company has hired several vice-presidents with backgrounds in navigating the political scene in DC. In this old article from the past spring, Rusty Roberts (Vice president corporate development for FECI) is in charge of planning and launching AAF in the Central Florida region. He also happens to have been Rep. Mica's chief of staff for many years.

With smart hiring moves like this, it is easy to see why AAF has had little difficulty navigating the complex currents of negotiating with the government. I would not doubt that is why the FAA issue at the Orlando airport seems to have fallen off the radar. Having people like this will make it alot easier for AAF to convince the state of Florida to invest in this project by providing money for the airport station. If AAF does expand to Tampa, people like this will be invaluable when the time comes to build a new railroad down interstate 4.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/print-edition/2013/04/26/five-minutes-with-florida-east-coast.html?page=all

EDIT: I have since learned that AAF did not request the state money to build the train station - GOAA is requesting the money come from the government. It appears we should know more soon about the funding sources for the airport station according to a news report I read.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Details of agreements with GOAA can be found starting on page 47 of this presentation document:

http://www.orlandoairports.net/meetings/public/board/20131002_presentation.pdf

It outlines the various agreements that AAF and GOAA concluded today. Of note - new maintenance facility will be in same proposed location for the aborted HSR project a few years ago. A new lease will have to be negotiated for any expansion southward (westbound) out of new train station. This to me strongly suggests that any future expansion to Tampa will copy the old HSR project route exactly.

 

[chrsjrcj]

Another critical milestone has been met! Today, the Orlando-Orange County Expressway Authority Board unanimously approved an easement purchase agreement with All Aboard Florida. This agreement allows All Aboard Florida to construct its rail infrastructure immediately parallel to the State Road 528 corridor.

https://www.facebook.com/AllAboardFlorida/posts/573476556033410

 

[CHamilton]

FL: All Aboard Florida Train Could Start Construction Next Year, Open in Late 2015

SOURCE: ORLANDO SENTINEL ...

Owned by Florida East Coast Industries of Coral Gables, All Aboard Florida is planning depots at Orlando International Airport, West Palm Beach, Fort Lauderdale and Miami. The trains would run on a 230-mile route.


Its customers are expected to be business travelers and tourists. A one-way ticket could cost about $100.

Construction could start next year on the privately financed, $1.5 billion project because the agreements provide a place for the train at OIA, as well as right of way along the BeachLine Expressway for tracks to the airport.

A sister company of All Aboard Florida, Florida East Coast Railway, already owns about 200 miles of track from Miami to Cocoa.

The pact approved Wednesday calls for the Orlando airport to seek a $200 million grant from the state to pay for a station about a mile south of the main terminal.

"We are embarking on a new business frontier, making us the true hub of Central Florida and the true hub of the state," said Frank Kruppenbacher, airport board chairman.

The depot initially would serve All Aboard Florida but also would have space for a potential future spur of the SunRail commuter train scheduled to start operating in May and for one other train, possibly the proposed magnetically levitated system from the airport to the Orange County Convention Center.

All Aboard Florida would pay the airport $2.8 million annually for rent, plus up to $1.50 per train passenger who leaves from Orlando. The train company also would spend $50 million to build a maintenance facility at the airport and pay more than $580,000 a year to lease the land for it....

 

[George Harris]

From the trade press:

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/prdailynews/news.asp?id=37920

The essence:

The agreement enables All Aboard Florida to construct rail infrastructure parallel to the State Road 528 Corridor.

This with a leases with FDOT approved in June means that

All Aboard Florida now has secured the right of way needed to build a passenger-rail line between Orlando and Miami, All Aboard Florida officials said in a press release.

Also, on Wednesday (Oct 2,2013):

the Greater Orlando Aviation Authority's (GOAA) board approved several agreements that will allow All Aboard Florida to develop its Central Florida station at Orlando International Airport's future intermodal facility.

 

[Ben]

AAF applied for a RRIF loan earlier this year. What if the loan does not get approved; could it stop the project?

 

[afigg]

AAF applied for a RRIF loan earlier this year. What if the loan does not get approved; could it stop the project?

Possibly. Depends on whether AAF can get a commercial financing at interest rates and terms that allow the project - as a whole - to remain viable for eventually turning a profit. But I expect AAF will qualify for the RRIF loan, they have the assets of an established freight railroad and state & local support backing them up.

The issue with the RRIF loan is that most of the FRA staff is on furlough. That means there is no one processing the loan, working with a vendor to qualify and handle the loan. If the government shutdown is over by the end of the next work week that means probably a minimum of a 3 week delay in processing the application, given the days spent preparing for the shutdown and then getting back up to speed.

 

[jis]

Isn't the RRIF loan for upgrading the FEC trackage between Miami and Cocoa? Wouldn't FEC apply for that, since it is their property that they will be upgrading? Wouldn't AAF applying for an RRIF loan get them re-entangled with STB, which they just managed get disentangled from? Just curious. I don't know the answers to any of those questions.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Isn't the RRIF loan for upgrading the FEC trackage between Miami and Cocoa? Wouldn't FEC apply for that, since it is their property that they will be upgrading? Wouldn't AAF applying for an RRIF loan get them re-entangled with STB, which they just managed get disentangled from? Just curious. I don't know the answers to any of those questions.

The proposed passenger trains between Miami and Orlando Airport will be operated by AAF with sister company FEC RR hosting those trains between Miami and Cocoa. Because AAF's passengers trains are going to operate only in Florida and not connect with any other interstate passenger trains, they will not be subject to STB. FECI, the Real Estate Development sister company of AAF and FECRR has significant resources and stands to lose if this project is delayed too long. This project will happen with or without the loan. Look for further press releases by the end of the year.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Link to a nice video presentation of the new APM and AAF terminal to be built at the Orlando airport.

http://www.orlandoairports.net/meetings/public/board/20131002_video.htm

Looks like it will be a very nice station - AAF customers will get their own parking level in the new garage.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Link to a nice video presentation of the new APM and AAF terminal to be built at the Orlando airport.

http://www.orlandoairports.net/meetings/public/board/20131002_video.htm

Looks like it will be a very nice station - AAF customers will get their own parking level in the new garage.

Brian, Thanks for posting. It looks like a nice facility. It's great that there will be exclusive parking for AAF trains. I plan to drive from Jacksonville to that terminal to take AAF to South Florida.